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Would you pay roughly equal pts for

A unit that has 33wounds, 3+ save, BS4, and does heavy 3D6 at 240" S9 AP-3 D3 dmg that rolls two dice for the number of attacks when firing this weapon and discard the lowest result. This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer.
+ 9 heavy bolter shots 36" S5 Ap-1 1D

OR

A unit with 14 wounds, 2+ save, 5++, BS4 and does 36" Heavy 12 S6 AP-3 D1 that causes a mortal wound to yourself every time you fire + 30" 8 Heavy 4 S5 Ap-1 D1 that ignores cover and line of sight

Thats a unit of 3 Basilisks vs 1 Riptide with ATS and Target Lock.

Think about that...a Riptide has +1 toughness and +1 save and the invulnerable save over the basilisk. Same bs, strength and movement. Basilisks have WS6 to riptide 5. Riptide can move and fire without penalty due to ATS. Basilisks don't need to. Riptides have 1 better leadership.

All things being equal, I would like to see a riptide with 33 wounds that shoots as well as that. I would pay the extra what, 25pts? points for the 1 point increase in armor and toughness and the invulnerable save to get that kind of shooting and wounds.

If Tau will get balanced to the rest of what's out there, and everyone will lose their collective minds?

Thinking any faction, especially a Xenos one, will compare to one of the Imperium; lol.

Also, IG aren't the faction to balance compare against - they're clear winners in every category - and need readjustments across the board.

I'm fine with Tau receiving buffs, but commanders can't stay as strong as they are if you want a balanced army. I know people are going to rage at me for that but it's true. Part of having a balanced force means you don't have one glaringly OP "all situations" unit. And I agree with the above poster. Don't expect to be balanced to IG levels.

Current rumors are commanders going to 1 max per detachment (!!) and the Riptide getting a buff, but apparently not much more although things are hazy.

I think they won't miss the mark just because Tau are such a hard faction to get right; they basically ignore two phases of the game (i.e. psychic and assault/combat) so it becomes incredibly hard to balance properly.

Maybe Tau should get some "psyshields" as an upgrade option. That will help them be less swingy.

Honestly Tau are not in a terrible place. Maybe if you play against uber competitive types but your average beer and pretzels player is doing OK.

They just need to make some adjustments to them really, so they have their depth/fun back.

I don't ever want to see a riptide ever again, but somehow I think I'm not going to get my wish.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't ever want to see a riptide ever again, but somehow I think I'm not going to get my wish.

Riptides confirmed to get price cuts + increasesed weapon power + the advantages of getting an army trait. As an owner of 5 rips - I am ecstatic about this.

Looks like I need to get my mallet back out. Riptides can die in a fire.

fe40k wrote:

Also, IG aren't the faction to balance compare against - they're clear winners in every category - and need readjustments across the board.

This. It's dumb to compare to IG. They are not the metric by which every other army should be measured.

fe40k wrote:
Thinking any faction, especially a Xenos one, will compare to one of the Imperium; lol.

Also, IG aren't the faction to balance compare against - they're clear winners in every category - and need readjustments across the board.

Ehhhh...
IG are in the same place as Eldar and Tau were last edition; there's a few builds/units that really prop everything up to make them seem more powerful than they really are. Mostly due to the fact that it's easy enough to throw the problematic stuff in with gapfillers from other Imperial armies. There's a reason that Guard players don't run Conscripts or Commissars anymore in pure Guard lists.


With that out of the way, I'm really hoping for more Commander Suit options. Commanders in Broadsides, Commanders in Ghostkeels, Commanders hoverboarding around on Missile Drones...
I'd also be flipping ecstatic for a plastic Sniper Drone kit.

Tau need an overhaul in general.
Massive shooting boosts could make them ridiculously overpowered and game breaking. However, they only have 1 phase. They should be very good at movement and deployment abilities and have ways of avoiding assaults or countering them. If they want to start someplace....
- Need to remove the "have not moved" penalties to all the special rules.
- Need increase volume of fire across the board - especially on vehicle weapons and the big suits
- Need better AP across the board - especially on vehicle weapons and the big suits
- Need JSJ again
- Need considerable point reductions for many units
- Need increased BS to suits and vehicles
- Need ways to not take movement penalties on vehicles and large suits that don't cost points
- Pathfinders should finally be moved to troops like all light scout infantry are - they are not fast. they don't really move
- Skyrays need skyfire abilities
- Marker light table needs to be reworked
- Rail, Ion and Plasma weapons all need to be better
- Seeker and d missiles should do more shots per missile ( they are cruise missiles that explode FFS) and do more dmg
- Ethereal shooting ability should reroll wounds of 1 rather than shots
- Sniper drones need massive improvements.

Nice to haves
- Kroot need improvements to close combat for all Kroot units
- Need Shas'el or lieutenant suit HQs that slot between commanders and crisis bodyguards.
- Need a stealth commander unit
- Some sort of anti-psyker defense
- Pathfinders get some unit upgrade where they gain sniper rules and some increased cover benefits
- Bring the FW Hammerhead turrets to the codex
- A light tank version of a hammerhead that adds a turret to a devilfish and reduces transport capacity to 6

Wayniac wrote:
Current rumors are commanders going to 1 max per detachment (!!) and the Riptide getting a buff, but apparently not much more although things are hazy.

I think they won't miss the mark just because Tau are such a hard faction to get right; they basically ignore two phases of the game (i.e. psychic and assault/combat) so it becomes incredibly hard to balance properly.

In bold - no way. I hope so, because that sets the precedent that we can have strong units that simply can't be spammed by virtue of their definition. So powerful units can feel powerful without breaking the game. I actually really like this idea.

I doubt it. That would go against the base idea of 8th's detachments.

 Marmatag wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Current rumors are commanders going to 1 max per detachment (!!) and the Riptide getting a buff, but apparently not much more although things are hazy.

I think they won't miss the mark just because Tau are such a hard faction to get right; they basically ignore two phases of the game (i.e. psychic and assault/combat) so it becomes incredibly hard to balance properly.

In bold - no way. I hope so, because that sets the precedent that we can have strong units that simply can't be spammed by virtue of their definition. So powerful units can feel powerful without breaking the game. I actually really like this idea.

I mean, they set up Guard Command Squads to require an Officer per Command Squad in a Detachment. It's virtually the same idea.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Current rumors are commanders going to 1 max per detachment (!!) and the Riptide getting a buff, but apparently not much more although things are hazy.

I think they won't miss the mark just because Tau are such a hard faction to get right; they basically ignore two phases of the game (i.e. psychic and assault/combat) so it becomes incredibly hard to balance properly.

In bold - no way. I hope so, because that sets the precedent that we can have strong units that simply can't be spammed by virtue of their definition. So powerful units can feel powerful without breaking the game. I actually really like this idea.

I mean, they set up Guard Command Squads to require an Officer per Command Squad in a Detachment. It's virtually the same idea.

Yeah kind of.

Like i said, I hope they do this with stronger units. It's a much easier way to balance the game than constantly recosting and updating things.

Naaris wrote:
Tau need an overhaul in general.
Massive shooting boosts could make them ridiculously overpowered and game breaking. However, they only have 1 phase. They should be very good at movement and deployment abilities and have ways of avoiding assaults or countering them. If they want to start someplace....
- Need to remove the "have not moved" penalties to all the special rules.

Please cite some specific examples. The ones I can see aren't a huge deal and are the same as they were in 7th(the Stormsurge and Tactical Turrets).

- Need increase volume of fire across the board - especially on vehicle weapons and the big suits
- Need better AP across the board - especially on vehicle weapons and the big suits

Then you need to lose the Advanced Targeting System Support System. It allows for you to bump the AP of all weapons at a rather minimal cost.

- Need JSJ again

Probably going to be a Stratagem or something of that nature.

- Need considerable point reductions for many units

Yep.

- Need increased BS to suits and vehicles

Vehicles, no.
Suits, maybe.

I've been a fan of the idea for a long time of the Blacksun Filter rule that Suits used to have to make it so that they got an additional +1 to Hit when you used Markerlights to boost up your to Hit.

- Need ways to not take movement penalties on vehicles and large suits that don't cost points

Why? The point of the penalties is to encourage you to have to potentially counteract them with upgrades.

- Pathfinders should finally be moved to troops like all light scout infantry are - they are not fast. they don't really move

Maybe they will be? I mean, we don't know.

- Skyrays need skyfire abilities

The Skyray, in general, needs a massive rework. It was originally introduced as an AA platform for the Tau but it really is more of an artillery piece, requiring Markerlight designations for the Seekers to put targets down.

- Marker light table needs to be reworked

Really doesn't. I get that people want some stuff easier to get--but with the Stratagem they gave us in Chapter Approved it makes it a bit swingy but feasible.

- Rail, Ion and Plasma weapons all need to be better

Absolutely not on the Plasma weapons. Tau Plasma is meant to be like Eldar Plasma; not as damaging but way safer.

- Seeker and d missiles should do more shots per missile ( they are cruise missiles that explode FFS) and do more dmg

They're not "cruise missiles". They're closer to Javelin or Hellfire missiles; things that are intended to put down enemy vehicles/armored elements.

- Ethereal shooting ability should reroll wounds of 1 rather than shots
- Sniper drones need massive improvements.

I'm genuinely not sure how to feel about Sniper Drones. They're like Kastelans in that they can be very effective when taken with the proper character(the Firesight Marksman in the Sniper Drones' case)...but they need that character to really function.

Nice to haves
- Kroot need improvements to close combat for all Kroot units
- Need Shas'el or lieutenant suit HQs that slot between commanders and crisis bodyguards.

Ehhh...I don't think we really need a "cheaper" Commander suit. There are infantry options(Fireblades and named character Darkstrider) that get left on the shelf in some instances when they'd fill the niche you're after. A "cheap HQ".

- Need a stealth commander unit

Absolutely. Same with Ghostkeels.

- Some sort of anti-psyker defense

Probably going to happen. Not sure how it's going to work.

- Pathfinders get some unit upgrade where they gain sniper rules and some increased cover benefits

Yeah...no. Skitarii Rangers had Precision Shots on 6s last edition and they lost them in favor of adding a point of AP. For whatever reason, they want sniper units to be dedicated sniper units.

- Bring the FW Hammerhead turrets to the codex

Not happening unless the Hammerhead gets redone.

- A light tank version of a hammerhead that adds a turret to a devilfish and reduces transport capacity to 6

So...a Razorfish?

Why not just go the whole distance and make them Tau Marines?

For being a shooting army, the Tau just suck right now. It's always a bittersweet feeling when a Tau player realizes that Eldar have better shooting, better damage, better mitigation, can participate in the psychic phase, and can participate in the assault phase. Most armies get, easy to acquire, auras while Tau are still left with an antiquated markerlight system (arguably worse than before). Our only chance to do anything competitive was to load up on BS2, fusion equipped, units, and it looks like they'll be soon nerfed on how many we can take. What a bummer.

For an army that only really shoots, you would expect the quality and quantity of that shooting to be much better than what it is.

Also, I didn't necessarily want cheaper Riptides, or other battlesuits with their current mediocrity. What I wanted was better performers.

So many other issues but I'll just leave it at that.

What's the point in being concerned with any race right now which doesn't have a codex? We've seen the same thing for all major codices which come out; price drops and a few strong units, occasionally really strong stratagem/unit combos. (this is ignoring the minor factions which don't really justify a codex anyway).

No point wrist-wringing until the books show up.

Pretty excited to see the new dex and rumors say it'll drop 17 March so its not too far off. Maybe we'll get some official word or reviews soon.

If vehicles gained a support system slot it might solve some issues or at least make for more interesting options.

Markerlight rework would be nice, if not maybe some more stratagems to help in that department. The current table is to bloated with useless hits and adding d3 is nice but relies on luck, cp and initial as well as follow up hits to reach that critical bonus. Maybe it just feels too much like gambling since you either hit 5 or fall short and go empty (other sources of rr1, few or no seekers to fire, long range on many weapons mitigates need to move, big targets/vehicles don't get cover most of the time).

Plasma should be bumped to S7 to match the now 'safe' standard plasma and maybe turn into an assault type weapon or be a tad cheaper than variants that can overcharge. Too bad Tau isn't really into the overcharge mechanic since we have a lot of reroll 1's options that don't require character support.

Sniper Drones could use those mortal wounds on 6's or some AP. For ~100pts your getting that marksman as well as 4 drones...No one but the flimsiest of guardsmen are really worried about 4 S5 AP- shots hitting on 4+. If your getting into rapid fire you could probably just have run gun drones and put out 4x the dakka...

Maybe bring back 'if 3+ units target the same unit they gain +1BS' as a stratagem or sept trait? It's pretty powerful and probably shouldn't stack with markers but perhaps offer an alternative?

Over on ATT someone pointed out, the new AOS ability might give us an idea of what to expect in the way of JSJ stratagems:

I think that's a fair compromise to bring back JSJ suits, a fair chance of failure and at a cost of CP (although it's still as obnoxious as ever)

I'm sorry but a 33 wound Riptide is ridiculous. To even entertain that idea you better be removing it's invuln and jack up the price considerably

 Sleep Spell wrote:
Pretty excited to see the new dex and rumors say it'll drop 17 March so its not too far off. Maybe we'll get some official word or reviews soon.

If vehicles gained a support system slot it might solve some issues or at least make for more interesting options.

It could also simply be that vehicles get given those Support Systems.

Markerlight rework would be nice, if not maybe some more stratagems to help in that department. The current table is to bloated with useless hits and adding d3 is nice but relies on luck, cp and initial as well as follow up hits to reach that critical bonus. Maybe it just feels too much like gambling since you either hit 5 or fall short and go empty (other sources of rr1, few or no seekers to fire, long range on many weapons mitigates need to move, big targets/vehicles don't get cover most of the time).

It's D3+1 Markerlight Counters added on for a single CP.
So a single Markerlight Counter plus a roll of 5 or 6 equals you hitting 5 Markerlight Counters in one shot. But the Stratagem isn't something you play right off the bat. You use it as a filler in case you get 2 or 3 solid hits but nothing else lands.

More than that, who is to say how the 1 ML Counter ability will interact with Sept traits? Cadians get the same thing as the "Take Aim!" Order by simply staying still for a game turn, with the Order instead granting rerolls to all failed Hit rolls if you're Cadians. I can't imagine that something similar won't be present as a Sept rule or possibly just as a rule for some of the ballistic suits or possibly Fire Warriors.

Plasma should be bumped to S7 to match the now 'safe' standard plasma and maybe turn into an assault type weapon or be a tad cheaper than variants that can overcharge. Too bad Tau isn't really into the overcharge mechanic since we have a lot of reroll 1's options that don't require character support.

Disagree. The whole point of the 'safe' plasma statline is that it's still a volatile weapon--the only thing that makes it 'unsafe' is disregarding the safety protocols and firing it as a charged blast.

Sniper Drones could use those mortal wounds on 6's or some AP. For ~100pts your getting that marksman as well as 4 drones...No one but the flimsiest of guardsmen are really worried about 4 S5 AP- shots hitting on 4+. If your getting into rapid fire you could probably just have run gun drones and put out 4x the dakka...

Sniper Drones are actually pretty decent given that they're dishing out 2 shots a piece when you get at 24" range(read: Lasgun max range)

They could absolutely use the mortal wounds on 6s or the AP bit--or just being able to be buffed by Fireblades or Pulse Accelerator Drones.

Maybe bring back 'if 3+ units target the same unit they gain +1BS' as a stratagem or sept trait? It's pretty powerful and probably shouldn't stack with markers but perhaps offer an alternative?

Not going to agree with this at all. That ability was ridiculous and caused so much of a hassle thanks to the nonsense of Split Fire.

Which, remember, is now a thing for everyone. all the time.

Over on ATT someone pointed out, the new AOS ability might give us an idea of what to expect in the way of JSJ stratagems:

I would expect it to be more of a thing that if you do so, you cannot Fall Back the next turn or something.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So a single Markerlight Counter plus a roll of 5 or 6 equals you hitting 5 Markerlight Counters in one shot. But the Stratagem isn't something you play right off the bat. You use it as a filler in case you get 2 or 3 solid hits but nothing else lands.

More than that, who is to say how the 1 ML Counter ability will interact with Sept traits? Cadians get the same thing as the "Take Aim!" Order by simply staying still for a game turn, with the Order instead granting rerolls to all failed Hit rolls if you're Cadians. I can't imagine that something similar won't be present as a Sept rule or possibly just as a rule for some of the ballistic suits or possibly Fire Warriors.

I do believe you trade in that first hit for D3+1 so your adding D3 for a CP. It's not bad but I assume you'd want a character to set up the chain, spend the CP which probably puts you at ~3 hits and then follow up with a 5man Pathfinder team on roughly average rolls to secure that bonus. Not terrible mind you, but good or bad rolls can really swing it either way. Really need to keep those pathfinders away from harm though. The idea of stratagems or traits playing into this is appealing. I'd love to get a little more excited about markerlight abilities again.

Disagree. The whole point of the 'safe' plasma statline is that it's still a volatile weapon--the only thing that makes it 'unsafe' is disregarding the safety protocols and firing it as a charged blast.

I see your point. It just felt like every other factions plasma was buffed when S7 became a safe firing mode and an S8 D2 option was included. Obviously no one likes their factions to have strictly worse weaponry, but there's no reason to complain as long as points reflect the disadvantages of S6 and no overcharge option.

Not going to agree with this at all. That ability was ridiculous and caused so much of a hassle thanks to the nonsense of Split Fire.

Which, remember, is now a thing for everyone. all the time.

Eh, probably right. I liked the idea of rewarding more focused fire (as markerlight do), but I can absolutely see how this could get out of hand with MSU or now available split fire.

I would expect it to be more of a thing that if you do so, you cannot Fall Back the next turn or something.

That would certainly make it more situational/risky which is fine. Gain an extra move after shooting but lose the fly keyword for a turn? Gamble on getting out of that charge distance/enemy failing thanks to the move but risk getting stuck in might make it more fun for path parties.

Will GW improve Tau enough?

Yes. Thread over

 Sleep Spell wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So a single Markerlight Counter plus a roll of 5 or 6 equals you hitting 5 Markerlight Counters in one shot. But the Stratagem isn't something you play right off the bat. You use it as a filler in case you get 2 or 3 solid hits but nothing else lands.

More than that, who is to say how the 1 ML Counter ability will interact with Sept traits? Cadians get the same thing as the "Take Aim!" Order by simply staying still for a game turn, with the Order instead granting rerolls to all failed Hit rolls if you're Cadians. I can't imagine that something similar won't be present as a Sept rule or possibly just as a rule for some of the ballistic suits or possibly Fire Warriors.

I do believe you trade in that first hit for D3+1 so your adding D3 for a CP. It's not bad but I assume you'd want a character to set up the chain, spend the CP which probably puts you at ~3 hits and then follow up with a 5man Pathfinder team on roughly average rolls to secure that bonus. Not terrible mind you, but good or bad rolls can really swing it either way. Really need to keep those pathfinders away from harm though. The idea of stratagems or traits playing into this is appealing. I'd love to get a little more excited about markerlight abilities again.

It just, as far as I can tell, says "a" Markerlight hit.

Disagree. The whole point of the 'safe' plasma statline is that it's still a volatile weapon--the only thing that makes it 'unsafe' is disregarding the safety protocols and firing it as a charged blast.

I see your point. It just felt like every other factions plasma was buffed when S7 became a safe firing mode and an S8 D2 option was included. Obviously no one likes their factions to have strictly worse weaponry, but there's no reason to complain as long as points reflect the disadvantages of S6 and no overcharge option.

I honestly figured the "buff" for Tau plasma is that it is a Rapid Fire weapon rather than Assault or Heavy.

Not going to agree with this at all. That ability was ridiculous and caused so much of a hassle thanks to the nonsense of Split Fire.

Which, remember, is now a thing for everyone. all the time.

Eh, probably right. I liked the idea of rewarding more focused fire (as markerlight do), but I can absolutely see how this could get out of hand with MSU or now available split fire.

If you wrote the rule to be something like:

When all models in the same unit fire at a single target unit, add +1 to Hit rolls.

It's a "focused fire" trait that lets you get a +2BS if the unit's been hit by 5+ Markerlights.

Marmatag wrote:
Like i said, I hope they do this with stronger units. It's a much easier way to balance the game than constantly recosting and updating things.

That used to be normal in older editions (3e and 4e at least - can't speak for later ones). Units could be marked 0-X, where X was the most you were allowed to have in an army.

This was - as you say - a way to mitigate bringing lots of a small variety of very powerful units, but still allow very powerful units to exist.

Unfortunately that's not the way of things anymore, as it would fly in the face of having multiple detachments.

The Imperial Guard have always brought better long-range firepower [=>48"].

Most of the Tau's strength is in the medium range bracket. The big difference is the Imperial Guard's only real answer to anything was "shoot it more", while the Tau had a diverse and capable array of units to deal with any threat that may present itself.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm fine with Tau receiving buffs, but commanders can't stay as strong as they are if you want a balanced army. I know people are going to rage at me for that but it's true. Part of having a balanced force means you don't have one glaringly OP "all situations" unit. And I agree with the above poster. Don't expect to be balanced to IG levels.

I have yet to encounter a Tau player that don't agree that Commanders and Gun Drones need to be nerfed. Specially commanders. I'll love for them to be actual Commanders and not suicide units. A Tau Commander should lead, he is not a Space Marine captain, he shouldn't be a powerhouse. I'm no tasking for him to be like a IG officer, for that we have Ethereals, but a middle ground.

I hope they find a way to make Tau infantry more useful, rather than being an afterthought. Outside of that, I hope they are competitive and not spammy.

 Elbows wrote:
We've seen the same thing for all major codices which come out; price drops and a few strong units, occasionally really strong stratagem/unit combos. (this is ignoring the minor factions which don't really justify a codex anyway).

tfw Grey Knights