USS Lexington found

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**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

The wreck, which was scuttled by the US Navy, has been found after 76 years

The ship won't be retrieved (nor any of its 11 airplanes found alongside, one presumes) as the US Navy considers it to be a War Grave.

Here's hoping 'treasure' hunters have the common decency to leave it well alone.

Article in case of work blocked.

BBC News wrote:
The wreck of a US aircraft carrier that was sunk during World War Two has been found off the coast of Australia.

The USS Lexington was located at a depth of about 3km (2 miles) in the Coral Sea, about 800km off Australia's east coast.

The ship was lost in the Battle of the Coral Sea from 4-8 May 1942. More than 200 crew members died in the fighting.

The US Navy confirmed the ship had been discovered by a search team led by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.

Pictures showed the wreck to be well preserved.

The discovery of the Lexington, along with 11 of its 35 aircraft, was made by Mr Allen's company Vulcan on Sunday.

Adm Harry Harris, head of the US Pacific Command, praised the discovery.

"As the son of a survivor of the USS Lexington, I offer my congratulations to Paul Allen and the expedition crew of Research Vessel (R/V) Petrel for locating the 'Lady Lex'," he said on Tuesday.

The Battle of the Coral Sea is considered a key moment in halting Japan's advance in the Pacific during the war.

The Lexington was scuttled by US forces after being struck by several Japanese torpedoes and bombs during the battle.

The US Navy said 216 crew members died after the ship was attacked. More than 2,000 others were rescued.

"Lexington was on our priority list because she was one of the capital ships that was lost during WWII," Vulcan spokesman Robert Kraft said.

Pictures from the seabed taken by the Petrel show the Lexington's nameplate and guns. Some of the ship's aircraft are also shown in remarkably good condition

The ship will not be retrieved because the US Navy considers it to be a war grave.

Mr Kraft said it had taken about six months of planning to locate the ship.

Last year, Vulcan discovered the wreck of the USS Indianapolis, which sank in July 1945.

It has found other vessels including a Japanese warship, the Musashi, and an Italian naval vessel, Artigliere - both from the same era.

**TheMeanDM**

It is pretty incredible what they have been able to find....like a needle in a hay stack.

Makes me wonder why they still haven't found wreckage of that Malaysian air liner.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Different builds would be my suggestion.

USS Lexington, like all Capital Ships, is a big old chunk of metal. So when she sank, the tides and currents etc wouldn't be able to shift her terribly far.

The Malaysian Airliner? Far lighter in build by necessity, and depending on the angle and speed of impact could've fragmented.

**simonr1978**

TheMeanDM wrote:
It is pretty incredible what they have been able to find....like a needle in a hay stack.

Makes me wonder why they still haven't found wreckage of that Malaysian air liner.

They would have had a pretty decent idea with the Lexington of where to start looking since the position of the ship at the time it was scuttled would have been recorded, something lacking in the case of MH370.

Plus as MDG the two are hugely different in size, construction and mass, Lexington is 888ft long and displaced between 37,000 and 48,500 tonnes vs 242ft and a maximum take off weight of under 380 tonnes for a Boeing 777, even assuming the latter is still more or less in one piece.

Also, no-one is going to be recovering the aircraft that's for certain. Saltwater is not kind to Aluminium and after 76 years immersion they wouldn't survive the salvage/recovery process.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

So with this sort of thing, one imagines there'll be the bodies of the unfortunate, and possibly their dogtags.

Being a War Grave, does that mean it's left completely untouched, or would there be some form of effort to recover the dogtags to pass on to the surviving family?

**simonr1978**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with this sort of thing, one imagines there'll be the bodies of the unfortunate, and possibly their dogtags.

Being a War Grave, does that mean it's left completely untouched, or would there be some form of effort to recover the dogtags to pass on to the surviving family?

I wouldn't like to say with 100% certainty, but IIRC yes it should remain undisturbed. In all likelihood any human remains will be long gone, it's possible that there may be some bones left but after this amount of time it's unlikely. I highly doubt there'd be any attempt to try to recover identity tags, assuming those killed on the Lexington went down with the ship any more than there would be any attempt to recover any other personal effects, it'd be grave robbing after all, and that's assuming that it'd even be possible - I'm assuming here that it's probably far beyond safe diving limits so you're limited to submersibles and ROVs.

**Ketara**

In other words, the scrap metal salvage ships will be showing up as soon as the media interest dies away. I can't help but feel that naval war grave locations should be kept secret in this day and age.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/18/battle-jutland-war-graves-hms-warrior-metal-scavengers-royal-navy

**Frazzled**

Ketara wrote:
In other words, the scrap metal salvage ships will be showing up as soon as the media interest dies away. I can't help but feel that naval war grave locations should be kept secret in this day and age.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/18/battle-jutland-war-graves-hms-warrior-metal-scavengers-royal-navy

Hopefully not. The BBC page says it's two miles down right? I can say that the effort involved drilling a well at that depth is massive, much less a scrap operation.

**simonr1978**

I would imagine that the depth will protect it for the foreseeable future, if nothing else it's probably not economically viable. Plus it is one of the more well known second world war wrecks. Ballard found the Midway wrecks from both sides a few years back now and they've not been salvaged.

Edit: Missed the depth when I initially read the article, so at that depth it's well into submersible/ROV only territory.

**Ketara**

Nobody dives for retrieval, they just drop something incredibly heavy on it to crack it open and then use machine controlled camera guided gripping tools on the end of cables. That in turn means that the depth is only as much a barrier as far as the cable will stretch for the most part.

If they were doing it sensitively and carefully, it would be a different kettle of fish, but when you're just treating it like a nut and smashing it up? Not so much trouble.

**simonr1978**

True, however the greater depth is still a barrier to salvage operations since 3Km+ of cable and lifting gear is going to need very specialised (And expensive) equipment to drop and recover, far more so than if a ship is only lying at 100m. I still believe that it's not going to be anywhere near economically viable, especially it looks like she's lying on here keel so the valuable metals like the props are likely to be buried.

As I mentioned, USS Yorktown is in a similar position and hasn't been touched, same goes for the Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu although the wrecks of the latter four are in much more of a mess due to the damage they received.

**Frazzled**

Declare it a military practice zone, that any unidentified vessels are assumed to be training targets...

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Frazzled wrote:
Declare it a military practice zone, that any unidentified vessels are assumed to be training targets...

That'd work

*outdated dreams of full Naval broadsides, and a suddenly very silly looking salvage boat, possibly with 'oh crikey' last thoughts*

**Ketara**

simonr1978 wrote:
True, however the greater depth is still a barrier to salvage operations since 3Km+ of cable and lifting gear is going to need very specialised (And expensive) equipment to drop and recover, far more so than if a ship is only lying at 100m. I still believe that it's not going to be anywhere near economically viable, especially it looks like she's lying on here keel so the valuable metals like the props are likely to be buried.

As I mentioned, USS Yorktown is in a similar position and hasn't been touched, same goes for the Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu although the wrecks of the latter four are in much more of a mess due to the damage they received.

You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. The economic incentive and technology are both there and accessible to anyone who sees it as an investment (that is to say, anyone who thinks that they can salvage multiple ships in succession). The Gairsoppa was 2.9 miles under the sea, and that didn't stop them pulling up over a thousand silver ingots from the thing. That was just with submarine recovery gear, which is far, far more expensive I believe, than a crane, some cable, a weight, and a camera. The main issue in salvaging is finding the bloody thing, once you've triangulated a reasonably precise location it's laughing all the way to the bank. The economic incentive is usually there, with things like low radiation steel, bronze propellors, and suchlike. I've heard tales of such salvagers trying to use the NMM records to try and ascertain metal values in detail before undertaking their operations.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2118240/asias-deep-sea-grave-robbers-are-stripping-rusted-warship

The best defence these ships have is secrecy. That or being somewhere much frequented as a shipping route by others who can report any such operations. I mean, if a local US carrier fleet heard a Malaysian crew a dozen miles away were smashing up a war grave after all, I don't doubt that there'd be a minor altercation.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Provided of course they've given the true location?

**John Prins**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with this sort of thing, one imagines there'll be the bodies of the unfortunate, and possibly their dogtags.

Being a War Grave, does that mean it's left completely untouched, or would there be some form of effort to recover the dogtags to pass on to the surviving family?

Nearly impossible. Bones either get buried in silt or consumed by the ocean floor scavengers over time. Finding dog tags would be practically miraculous unless you excavated the entire site, and given the depth? Not happening.

**Iron_Captain**

John Prins wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with this sort of thing, one imagines there'll be the bodies of the unfortunate, and possibly their dogtags.

Being a War Grave, does that mean it's left completely untouched, or would there be some form of effort to recover the dogtags to pass on to the surviving family?

Nearly impossible. Bones either get buried in silt or consumed by the ocean floor scavengers over time. Finding dog tags would be practically miraculous unless you excavated the entire site, and given the depth? Not happening.

Not at all nearly impossible. Depending on the local conditions, bones in sea water can be preserved very well, even for very long times. It is not uncommon to find bones in shipwrecks that are centuries old, and fishermen also sometimes drag up some fun things:

Basically, bone is preserved exceptionally well in waterlogged conditions, if the acidity of the water is not too high. The acidity is one of the most important factor in bone preservation.
Of course, bones can get scattered and buried, but if they are located inside of the wreck then this is less likely.

**John Prins**

I think it's more a matter of bone-eating flora and fauna at those extreme depths. If the bones get buried by silt, they'd be fine. But exposed, entire whale carcasses, bones and all, get consumed, though it takes years and maybe decades.

**Grey Templar**

Very cool thing. Its nice to know exactly where she is finally.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So with this sort of thing, one imagines there'll be the bodies of the unfortunate, and possibly their dogtags.

Being a War Grave, does that mean it's left completely untouched, or would there be some form of effort to recover the dogtags to pass on to the surviving family?

Most likely there is nothing left of any bodies that were aboard when she went down. Unless they were in a completely sealed compartment or got buried, neither of which is likely. Scavengers and decomposition will quickly destroy any physical remains. All that would be left would be dog tags, maybe.

**jhe90**

2 miles down..

That's some 3000m below and very deep, far deeper than most basic salvage ships, submursble or robots designed to work.

Talking over twice to 3 times as deep as this, and it seems about 330kg of pressure per cm2. Or 4707 Psi.

Per square inch at that level is a full size pickup heavy pickup truck or more bearing down on every single inch, constantly..

That's way too deep for slavegers.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/dutch-probe-mystery-of-wartime-shipwrecks-that-appear-to-have-go/amp/

Other wrecks where at 200 feet.
This is 10,000 feet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burj_Khalifa.jpg

**AlmightyWalrus**

Burj Khalifa is "only " 2722 feet tall.

**BaronIveagh**

Ok, now for the one to make you think: who's plane is this?

'White F-5' with VF-3 markings, four kills, and one bombing mission. On an F4 Wildcat. By May of 1942. There can't be that many people to have pulled this off.

The code matches Ensign Dale W. Peterson but the kills do not. (Peterson only had 1.5 kills before he was shot down)

The kill marks match Noel Gayler's record up till Coral Sea, but he had transferred to VF-2 before this.

**Ketara**

jhe90 wrote:
2 miles down..

That's some 3000m below and very deep, far deeper than most basic salvage ships, submursble or robots designed to work.

Talking over twice to 3 times as deep as this, and it seems about 330kg of pressure per cm2. Or 4707 Psi.

Per square inch at that level is a full size pickup heavy pickup truck or more bearing down on every single inch, constantly..

That's way too deep for slavegers.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/dutch-probe-mystery-of-wartime-shipwrecks-that-appear-to-have-go/amp/

Other wrecks where at 200 feet.
This is 10,000 feet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burj_Khalifa.jpg

The Titanic is 2.3 miles down, 0.3 miles further than the Lexington. Robots back in the 80's were capable of salvaging stuff from that. Seriously, it's not that big a deal. When individual items (boilers, propellors, etc) can be worth literally £80,000 melted down, and you can swipe multiples of them from a single ship, it can be easily worth your money to go salvaging illegally. There's a reason the likes of Cressy, Aboukir and so on all vanished overnight.

**sebster**

Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. The economic incentive and technology are both there and accessible to anyone who sees it as an investment (that is to say, anyone who thinks that they can salvage multiple ships in succession). The Gairsoppa was 2.9 miles under the sea, and that didn't stop them pulling up over a thousand silver ingots from the thing.

Yes, specific items have been taken from wrecks, but those items were unique artifacts treasured for their history. But then you start talking about harvesting scrap metal from a wreck 3km down. It's silly.

**BaronIveagh**

Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. .

The bell is commonly taken to prove the identity of the wreck and it was the express wish of some of the survivors of HMS Hood that it be recovered.

**Ketara**

sebster wrote:
Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. The economic incentive and technology are both there and accessible to anyone who sees it as an investment (that is to say, anyone who thinks that they can salvage multiple ships in succession). The Gairsoppa was 2.9 miles under the sea, and that didn't stop them pulling up over a thousand silver ingots from the thing.

Yes, specific items have been taken from wrecks, but those items were unique artifacts treasured for their history. But then you start talking about harvesting scrap metal from a wreck 3km down. It's silly.

Hardly. We're talking about smashing them up remotely and then hoisting pieces up. You certainly couldn't do what they do for some of those wrecks in the Java Sea, where they quite literally hoist up entire sections of the hull in one go; the pressure would be too great. But most ships have been under there long enough that you can smash them up without too much effort and grab pieces, or use a moderately expensive submersible to deliberately cut the more valuable sections free and guide the claws. This technology, whilst not cheap, is not as expensive as you might think. There are enough private firms with the funds who only do it legally; if you keep what you catch and do it illegally, the profit margin is even larger.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. .

The bell is commonly taken to prove the identity of the wreck and it was the express wish of some of the survivors of HMS Hood that it be recovered.

I don't have a problem with it; I was countering the idea that we couldn't take something from that depth; when in reality we've been grabbing bits off wrecks deeper than this since the 80's.

**jhe90**

Ketara wrote:
sebster wrote:
Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. The economic incentive and technology are both there and accessible to anyone who sees it as an investment (that is to say, anyone who thinks that they can salvage multiple ships in succession). The Gairsoppa was 2.9 miles under the sea, and that didn't stop them pulling up over a thousand silver ingots from the thing.

Yes, specific items have been taken from wrecks, but those items were unique artifacts treasured for their history. But then you start talking about harvesting scrap metal from a wreck 3km down. It's silly.

Hardly. We're talking about smashing them up remotely and then hoisting pieces up. You certainly couldn't do what they do for some of those wrecks in the Java Sea, where they quite literally hoist up entire sections of the hull in one go; the pressure would be too great. But most ships have been under there long enough that you can smash them up without too much effort and grab pieces, or use a moderately expensive submersible to deliberately cut the more valuable sections free and guide the claws. This technology, whilst not cheap, is not as expensive as you might think. There are enough private firms with the funds who only do it legally; if you keep what you catch and do it illegally, the profit margin is even larger.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Ketara wrote:
You say that, but, HMS Hood is approximately two miles down, and it didn't stop the likes of Paul Allen grabbing the bell. .

The bell is commonly taken to prove the identity of the wreck and it was the express wish of some of the survivors of HMS Hood that it be recovered.

I don't have a problem with it; I was countering the idea that we couldn't take something from that depth; when in reality we've been grabbing bits off wrecks deeper than this since the 80's.

Yes. But this means commercial sized chunks. Not just small parts, multi ton sections, vs a few ingots or a single bell. Taking a few high value items is different to a ww2 era massive

Taking g a multi ton propellor, boiler or such chunk would be a long process with smaller submersible. Even with a crane ship, that requires a huge ship maybe with 6+km of cables on board and massive winches.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g60927-d106385-i109188765-USS_LEXINGTON-Corpus_Christi_Texas.html

Mini submersiables, cannot haul up stuff on this scale.

Even with a 3km capable crane ship, that's a very expensive ship, and a slow process when there's wrecks far shallower and more profitable for criminal salvage.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Ok, now for the one to make you think: who's plane is this?

'White F-5' with VF-3 markings, four kills, and one bombing mission. On an F4 Wildcat. By May of 1942. There can't be that many people to have pulled this off.

The code matches Ensign Dale W. Peterson but the kills do not. (Peterson only had 1.5 kills before he was shot down)

The kill marks match Noel Gayler's record up till Coral Sea, but he had transferred to VF-2 before this.

How about this'un?

(also, the pics that they've got are absolutely stunning)

**simonr1978**

That one's a TBD Devastator torpedo bomber, a type infamous for getting massacred at Midway.

**Alpharius**

Yeah, I think 'Devastators' weren't used again after that battle, right?