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The focus of this thread is the True, In-Universe size of the Blackstone Fortress, not the miniature though that may be referenced for scaling concerns.
The only actual measure given in lore is apparently from one of the novels, and is merely a rough estimate, by Primarch Guilliman.
Roboute Guilliman was a prisoner aboard a Blackstone Fortress. The Innermost Chamber was described as easily 100 Terran miles across. The ends of the chamber could nod be seen for they were in darkness.
I found this tidbit in the following video, , but have not yet any reply to my inquiry as to the source material. I suspect it was Rise of the Primarch, and will attempt to find a copy so I can confirm/debunk.
Now, for a conservative estimate. IF we are to presume that this central chamber is say, 1/3 of the width of the Pyramid, this gives us a Pyramid Base of roughly 300 miles x 300 miles.
Again, presuming this Pyramid, at its Base, is 1/3 the length/width of the Blackstone Overall, that gives us the conservative estimate of around 900 miles x 900 miles.
It is my opinion, that this is too small.
"Why is that?" you ask?
Because I believe the inspiration for the Blackstone is the Great Pyramid at Giza.
As you can see, the Central Chamber of the Great Pyramid is vastly smaller than the Pyramid itself.
Given the scaling for ships in 40k/BFG in general, and in particular the massive Fortresses constructed by the imperium, it is only logical that the scaling philosophy used would hold for everything made for the BFG/WH40K universe.
I will do follow-up posts with my refined calculations, and any additional info I find regarding size and sources.
So, at this juncture, I posit the most probable overall size of the Blackstone Fortress to be somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 miles across.
I welcome any additional info from the lore, and its source, that members of the community can provide.
You can skip the real world comparison to copper age humans and their stone work. One of these things cracked the planet Cadia. It didn't kick up a dust storm that wiped out the dinosaurs. It was bigger then that. Whatever size those things are it did more damage to the planet then the catastrophe that created our moon. It cracked a planet into pieces. No caveman feats work as an anology for that sort of thing.
Earth/Terra is Diameter: 7,918 miles (12,742 km)
Cadia would have to be close to that, give or take a few miles, to be a terrestrial planet.
Which is part of why I have issues with the size range I am stipulating/extrapolating from the one and only measure from the lore that I have thus far.
Which book/game/magazine is the impact described in?
It would be helpful.
I am making other estimates, but a SuperEarth-size I have too many issues with. Hence I am calling the guesstimated size as stated by a beaten Primarch being dragged thru a Blackstone as a Prisoner of Chaos into question.
Thus my plea for MORE INFO.
Every bit helps.
Primarch_Anubis wrote: So, at this juncture, I posit the most probable overall size of the Blackstone Fortress to be somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 miles across.
You realize 100.000 miles is only oh, three times the size of Jupiter? The gas giant that is similar in size to smaller stars?
If it was that big, crashing into Cadia would make a smear on the paint somewhere, at best.
One of these things cracked the planet Cadia. It didn't kick up a dust storm that wiped out the dinosaurs. It was bigger then that.
Which tells us absolutely nothing as the asteroid behind K/T event was about 10 km wide. So, similar in mass to larger Imperial battleships. BSF is bigger than that so would have larger effects regardless of what its real size is (and the K/T asteroid didn't 'kick up a dust storm', anyway, it completely vaporized area 1000 km wide and raised kilometer tall tsunamis that circled around the world six times so hardly just a 'dust storm', either way...).
In fact, the fact that Creed and co survived the impact limits the size of BSF in pretty major way as I'd bet even 100 km wide station impacting the planet would boil the atmosphere, to speak nothing of rearranging the planetary crust itself. See ending of Rogue One, it's one of the best depictions in cinema how such an impact would have looked like...
Oh yeah the cadians that survived...so the atmosphere remained intact and somehow that exposed super hot core didn't super heat and poison the atmosphere from its hot gases. I suppose, since this is space fantasy, no greenhouse effect either as the Imperium wants to reclaim it. All in all this gives us a cap to how small it can be and cap to how large it can be. Calculating either is beyond me since there is no record of such an event that we've ever recorded so no model to extrapolate from. Some fantasy details above may need to be ignored as impossible in real life but otherwise the size range has been narrowed.
ProwlerPC wrote: Oh yeah the cadians that survived...so the atmosphere remained intact and somehow that exposed super hot core didn't super heat and poison the atmosphere from its hot gases.
No, that part could eventually happen but I was pointing out it wasn't immediately fatal. At least for the time it took the survivors to evacuate, which provides some benchmark.
The blackstone fortress is probably the single most sophisticated bit of warp technology ever discovered, a god-killing weapons system created by the same race who built the webway and the ork species.
1) Assuming the internal dimensions of an activated blackstone fortress has anything to do with the external dimensions is potentially a flawed assumption.
2) The devastation it causes is not necessarily just to do with its size and sheer mass; its internal power sources are capable of powering exterminatus-equivalent weaponry, and warp-charged debris would do far more damage than just inert iron.
At the same time, even within the fall of cadia book the effective size is at best vague.
~ It's referred to as a moon-sized mass - but a moon could be anything from Deimos to Luna in size...
~ It basically devastates two sector battlefleets but then gets contemptuously slapped down by the Phalanx.
Part of the problem is the "my super-duper-named character beats everyone" syndrome that the whole Gathering storm series suffers from.
Blackstones aren't that big.
Remember that when they were first encountered (before abbadon woke them up) they were orbital defence fortresses - well armed, and built on xenos derelicts, but ultimately no different to any of a million others across the imperium.
In battlefleet gothic, they have ~ the defences, toughness and firepower (when the warp cannons and core are not activated) of a battleship.
Imperial battleships are ~ 10-15km long. Even increasing that by an order of magnitude (100km) makes it much bigger than the phalanx or macragges honour, and since the former was able to cripple it with pretty contemptuous ease, that seems unlikely
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/07 22:15:39
Thank you Irbis. That's a clever suggestion, but I have nearly none of the variables needed to even begin using this tool I am however saving the link, should I one day have enough data to use it.
As for an object damaging a planet, that is determined more by Mass and Velocity, than size.
As for size ranges, I would much prefer the Blackstone to be smaller than a planet. For reasons.
We have Port Maw, an artificial planet and World Engines, planet-sized weapons of the Necrons.
Blackstones should be smaller, since these are most often described as massive, not as planets, unlike those other two.
Speculation:
If the 100 miles wide Central Chamber is 3/4 of the Pyramid's Base, then we have a Pyramid Base of 133.3333333333333 miles, and Overall of 400 miles.
If the 100 miles wide Central Chamber is 1/2 of the Pyramid's Base, then we have a Pyramid Base of 200 miles, and Overall of 600 miles.
If the 100 miles wide Central Chamber is 1/4 of the Pyramid's Base, then we have a Pyramid Base of 400 miles, and Overall of 1,200 miles.
I much prefer it be somewhere in that range.
The biggest ships built by the Imperium, are stated in lore as being 8km to 10 km long or so. The Earth has a 12,742 km diameter.
Yes, the 40k universe IS Crazy and OverPowered!
That should be clear to everybody here, surprising no-one.
Also, the lore has contradicted itself before.
Arguments can be made, with the lore being sketchy at best, that a Blackstone might be close to a planet in size, which the largest Terran ships allegedly are, but the Blackstones are universally stated as dwarfing all known SHIPS, yet not, to my knowledge, dwarfing planets.
So here we are already running into contradictions.
Some art, though imprecise, shows a Blackstone or two in formation with the Planet Killer. The art I have seen has them as roughly the same size, give or take.
So the size data for the Planet Killer would be almost as helpful as more lore on the size of the Blackstone.
here is in lore, statements that the Blackstone was bigger than anything made by man, including all manmade space stations. So arguably bigger than the Ramillies Star Forts, but those were added later to the game, and never really put in any context with a Blackstone.
As stated there are Battleships and Battle Barges in the range of 8km to at most 16km long, and our planet is 12.742km in diameter. So, as much as I dislike the notion, a possibility exists for a Blackstone being larger than a terrestrial planet.
To reiterate, I humbly ask that those who have lore regarding actual measures or at least estimates of the Blackstone' size share that info and its source here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/07 23:52:07
Dude Primarch_Anubis I think you are making some mistakes with your numbers, first off you meant to post 1,000-10,000 rather than 10,000-100,000.
Second off.... the earths diameter is not 12.7km. What? Where are you getting these numbers from? It's 12.7 THOUSAND kilometers. Or 12.7k km. Or 12,742 km.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote: Dude Primarch_Anubis I think you are making some mistakes with your numbers, first off you meant to post 1,000-10,000 rather than 10,000-100,000.
Second off.... the earths diameter is not 12.7km. What? Where are you getting these numbers from? It's 12.7 THOUSAND kilometers. Or 12.7k km. Or 12,742 km.
As to the former, no, I meant what I said.
As to the latter, good catch! I was multitasking, and made an error there. One I am happy to correct! Thank you!
You think the blackstone fortresses are somewhere in the range of "as big as the planet Earth" to "as big as the planet Jupiter"?
That seems extremely impossible.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote: So Jupiter's diameter is like 140,000km, right?
You think the blackstone fortresses are somewhere in the range of "as big as the planet Earth" to "as big as the planet Jupiter"?
That seems extremely impossible.
Yes I do agree, that initial estimate of up to 100,000 km was a bit too high. That early estimate was just that; a rough, crude estimate I made eyeballing the Giza pyramid diagrams. Math has since debunked that estimate as being far too large, thankfully.
The Grand Gallery continues the slope of the Ascending Passage, but is 8.6 metres (28 ft) high and 46.68 metres (153.1 ft) long. At the base it is 2.06 metres (6.8 ft) wide, but after 2.29 metres (7.5 ft) the blocks of stone in the walls are corbelled inwards by 7.6 centimetres (3.0 in) on each side. There are seven of these steps, so, at the top, the Grand Gallery is only 1.04 metres (3.4 ft) wide.
Height 146.7 metres (481 ft) or 280 Egyptian Royal cubits
138.8 metres (455 ft) (contemporary)
Base 230.34 metres (756 ft) or 440 Egyptian Royal cubits
Volume 2,583,283 cubic metres (91,227,778 cu ft)
Slope 51°52'±2'
King's Chamber 10.47 metres by 5.234 metres
Grand Gallery 46.68 metres by 2.06 metres wide.
Base 230.34 metres
Which of these chambers was most likely the analog for the Blackstone's central chamber?
I suspect the King's Chamber.
Base 230.34 metres/King's Chamber 10.47 metres = 22.0 for the multiplier
22 x 100 miles = 2,200 miles, or 3,520 km for the Base of the Blackstone's Pyramid.
2,200 miles x 3 = 6,600 miles or 10,560 km overall.
Still more data is needed.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/08 13:09:30
I personally think the largest fact not being considered is bad writing by an author.
As stated before, in Battlefleet Gothic the Imperial converted ones weren't even anywhere as impressive or large as a Ramiles Star Fort.
Or, they are simply larger on the inside when activated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 01:22:05
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
I think comparing the black stone pyramid to the pyramid at Giza is not a good premise. For one the Giza pyramid was built as a tomb, not at part of a functioning fortress. The chamebers and corridors inside Giza only needed to be big enough to allow workers in, and to house the pharaoh and his belongings he was having sealed up with him. The chamber inside the black stone fortress could easily reflect the entire interior dimension of the pyramid shape, instead of a small portion. That would make more sense anyway for a chamber on a vessel that was meant to be occupied and worked in by many thousands of soldiers (either eldar, or imperial, or chaos).
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
I never said using the proportions of the Great Pyramid, which is merely an aesthetic contributor to the Blackstone, was the best measuring stick. Merely a rational one, based on the similarities. The Blackstone's Pyramid does closely resemble the Egyptian Pyramid; Not the Aztec, Mayan, Nubian nor the Chinese ones.
I know it is subjective, but then so is the only measure from the lore that I have. The statement that the Blackstone's central chamber is easily 100 miles across; not exactly 100 miles but easily 100 miles, suggesting that it could be a good deal more.
Telling me I have a weak argument, when I already know it is weak at best, going in, doesn't really help as it contributes no new knowledge. I need more information from the lore, regarding the Blackstone's size. With better information, I can make better estimates and calculations.
By my calculations, using the data I have so far, gives a probable range for the Blackstone's overall width being as little as around 333 miles at the smallest, up to around 6,600 miles or 10,560 km overall.
I need more information from the lore, regarding the Blackstone's size. With better information, I can make better estimates and calculations. Thank you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/12 05:53:00
Yes I understand what you're saying I'm just stating that despite their similarities on the outside, there is no rational reason to assume that their internal make up is similar since they were both constructed with very different purposes in mind. That's why using the ratio of the Giza pyramids chambers and applying it to the black stone doesn't seem like a rational conclusion to me.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
Arguments can be made, with the lore being sketchy at best, that a Blackstone might be close to a planet in size, which the largest Terran ships allegedly are, but the Blackstones are universally stated as dwarfing all known SHIPS, yet not, to my knowledge, dwarfing planets.
No imperial ship - even the Phalanx - come close to the size of a planet.
The Gloriana-class Macragge's Honour (Gulliman's flagship) is the largest true starship in the Imperium today, and it's 26 kilometres long.
The Phalanx and the Rock are exceptions - their size has never been definitively stated - but given that the Rock is essentially the Mountain of Aldurukh, it's going to be at most ~100km across, because a knight on foot could start at the path at the bottom and reach the tower gates in a day (4mph walking speed x 'a day's walk' of maybe 12-18 hours).
Some art, though imprecise, shows a Blackstone or two in formation with the Planet Killer. The art I have seen has them as roughly the same size, give or take.
So the size data for the Planet Killer would be almost as helpful as more lore on the size of the Blackstone
Regarding external dimensions, unfortunately no reliable assay has been made of the vessel's size, but it is without doubt significantly larger than the Imperial Navy's own Battleship class vessels. Captain Vinrex of the Felicitas estimated the Planet Killer 's gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million tonnes. According to a designer of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, the Planet Killer is approximately 6 miles long (or 10 kilometres). But scaling the Planet Killer to the size of the other voidships in the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada PC game means that it comes to an actual length of around 8.4 miles or 13.5 kilometres.
Which would fit; in battlefleet gothic, the Planet Killer is bigger than a battleship but not by much (hull 14 compared to hull 12 for normal battleships like the Emperor-class or space marine battle barge).
By comparison, the Blackstone Fortress (whether active or inert) had a hull of 16.
The largest 'statted' object was the space hulk, with a hull of 40 - and which are often described as 'hundreds of kilometres across' in various rulebooks and black library novels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/10 10:05:28
Arguments can be made, with the lore being sketchy at best, that a Blackstone might be close to a planet in size, which the largest Terran ships allegedly are, but the Blackstones are universally stated as dwarfing all known SHIPS, yet not, to my knowledge, dwarfing planets.
No imperial ship - even the Phalanx - come close to the size of a planet.
The Gloriana-class Macragge's Honour (Gulliman's flagship) is the largest true starship in the Imperium today, and it's 26 kilometres long.
The Phalanx and the Rock are exceptions - their size has never been definitively stated - but given that the Rock is essentially the Mountain of Aldurukh, it's going to be at most ~100km across, because a knight on foot could start at the path at the bottom and reach the tower gates in a day (4mph walking speed x 'a day's walk' of maybe 12-18 hours).
You are quite right. When I dug a little deeper I found some of the reference material I had to be in error, most likely fan-made attempts to answer questions on ship sizes. Sorry about that.
Some art, though imprecise, shows a Blackstone or two in formation with the Planet Killer. The art I have seen has them as roughly the same size, give or take.
So the size data for the Planet Killer would be almost as helpful as more lore on the size of the Blackstone
Regarding external dimensions, unfortunately no reliable assay has been made of the vessel's size, but it is without doubt significantly larger than the Imperial Navy's own Battleship class vessels. Captain Vinrex of the Felicitas estimated the Planet Killer 's gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million tonnes. According to a designer of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, the Planet Killer is approximately 6 miles long (or 10 kilometres). But scaling the Planet Killer to the size of the other voidships in the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada PC game means that it comes to an actual length of around 8.4 miles or 13.5 kilometres.
Which would fit; in battlefleet gothic, the Planet Killer is bigger than a battleship but not by much (hull 14 compared to hull 12 for normal battleships like the Emperor-class or space marine battle barge).
By comparison, the Blackstone Fortress (whether active or inert) had a hull of 16.
The largest 'statted' object was the space hulk, with a hull of 40 - and which are often described as 'hundreds of kilometres across' in various rulebooks and black library novels.
While the official art 'should' be reliable for relative scale, there are potential issues, such as artistic license, and what info and/or directions were given to the artist.
Regrettably, even the estimate of 100 Terran miles for the innermost chamber of the Blackstone, might be retconned, yet it is the only stated measure from the lore thus far. Hopefully future publications will shed more light on the matter.
While my projections for a probable size range could have the Blackstone's overall size anywhere from 333 miles wide to 6,600 miles wide, I am very much hoping the actual size will be somewhere between 500 and 2,000 miles. A good bit smaller than a terrestrial planet, but still dreadfully dwarfing anything made by man, even the Ramilies-class Starforts.
Some people have tried suggesting comparing the Blackstone ramming Cadia to asteroid impacts to figure the size. The problem with that, is that Kinetic Force is not a function of size, but Mass and Velocity. The 'short list' of thing's we would need to know to make calculations are: Mass of Cadia, Mass of Blackstone, relative velocity of Cadia (as it moves in its orbit), velocity of the Blackstone when it hit Cadia, and the angle between the direction Cadia was moving and the direction of the Blackstone.
It would be ideal, if Games Workshop would simply give us the length/width or the height, but they haven't yet, and their Customer Service staff don't know what the creators of company fluff are planning. They referred me to the books I was already aware of.
I have contacted the games studios that make Battlefleet Gothic: Armada I & II, but I have not heard back from them yet.
By R.F.Morgan - Own work, 
Primarch Anubis of the Tomb Kings Legion of the Adeptus Astartes 
