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A friend and I were thinking about all the other Alternative Human Societies that 31K introduced us to....to generally be used as Victims for the Astartes in a Novel.

Our discussions turned toward the Interex - which for all intents and purposes seemed to fit a more "traditional" understanding of Sci-Fi Humanity - Asimov and Roddenberry would be proud.

Here is a society that had rather practical/rational responses toward things like Kaos and encounters with Xenos.

I begin to wonder what a meeting with them would have been like if the Tau were around at the time, or if they had reached out to the Olamic Quietude (another Victim of the Astartes)

To which my friend posed an interesting question: "Why do you think the Emperor did all that? I mean, take a very very different route regarding Human interaction with Xenos? Too much contact with the Eldar Perhaps? Maybe he was too singleminded? Perhaps he's a Species-ist? Was it Hatred? Fear? " etc.

I had no answer for him, as i tend to feel these days its much harder to guess what the Emperor's motivations are about anything really given the number of writers who have written him up.

Any thought or tidbits to add?

Because xenos are evil and almost always try to exterminate / enslave / eat us, so it is easier to kill them all, just to be sure

Age of Strife. After mankind's golden era came to a crashing end with their AI the galactic xenos took advantage of the situation and preyed on humanity. One gets the sense that that age was more grim dark then 40k but lacks the christian undertones of the current setting.

Yup, as previously mentioned past experience proved that the vast majority of xenos were hostile and took advantage of humanity's weakness during the Age of Strife. Also, in terms of the Great Crusade, nothing helps drive expansion than having a great "Other" to fight, which in this case is all xenos, given that the Emperor wanted to reunite humanity. Chaos was too insidious for the general public to know or have as the main enemy and to focus on mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars means there can't be exceptions to which xenos can live or die.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yup, as previously mentioned past experience proved that the vast majority of xenos were hostile and took advantage of humanity's weakness during the Age of Strife. Also, in terms of the Great Crusade, nothing helps drive expansion than having a great "Other" to fight, which in this case is all xenos, given that the Emperor wanted to reunite humanity. Chaos was too insidious for the general public to know or have as the main enemy and to focus on mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars means there can't be exceptions to which xenos can live or die.

Hrmm.. So all he really needed was to encounter a bunch of friendly Space Monkeys.... (the Interex apparently had them)..

If you are all sourcing this to the Age of Strife, then i'm wondering if the Emperor during the Age of Dark Technology was "taking things easy" - Humanity was on the Move, new Dominant Player in the Cosmos.....

Maybe everything seemed so assured to him.....and then it all went to hell......

I'd say, it's because the Emperor is ultimately just another crazy tyrant who wants to take over the universe, and for that He needed stooges He could understand and easily manipulate. Since, in 40k, aliens tend to be on the sharper side of crayon box than humans, the Emperor most likely just figured that the hassle getting them to serve Him for all eternity wasn't worth the effort, or maybe He's just, might I say, a XENOphobe.

His original goal was to reunite and conquer all the human worlds from before the age of strife, but given how he crusaded beyond into xenos space to claim it and what we know about his project to uplift humanity he may have intended to claim the entire galaxy/universe for humankind, and understood that xenos had no place in his plan from the beginning.

Part of me wants to go all ‘Ancient Aliens’ and day that perhaps earth was visited when the Emperor was young but aware enough to understand the concept of Xenos, and that at some juncture his first interaction with them did not go well. His perspective might have been easily warped to think that the galaxy and mankind were better off without Xenos.

The Emperor was concerned with the survival of humanity above all else. Being nice to xenos doesn't really fit in with that.

In the old fluff, it was hinted that the Big E ran into a C'tanshard of the Void Dragon somewhen after the fall of the Roman Empire. He beat it which gave rise to the legend of St George slaying the Dragon.

As first contacts go, that would be likely to give you a pretty dim view of aliens. :p

Well, originally daddE was not necessarily wanting to go Dalek on all xenos. He dealt with the eldar. Also be was apparently willing to set up a Laer protectorate if they had been willing to submit to imperial rule.

Then they told prettyboi what to do with his offer.

Of course there are various xenobreed you can't coexist with like the most numerous ones, the orks.

Also the slaugth.

 Karhedron wrote:
The Emperor was concerned with the survival of humanity above all else. Being nice to xenos doesn't really fit in with that.

In the old fluff, it was hinted that the Big E ran into a C'tanshard of the Void Dragon somewhen after the fall of the Roman Empire. He beat it which gave rise to the legend of St George slaying the Dragon.

As first contacts go, that would be likely to give you a pretty dim view of aliens. :p

thats not partiuclarly old fluff eaither, Mechnium uses that fluff IIRC so it's still current

GrapeApe wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yup, as previously mentioned past experience proved that the vast majority of xenos were hostile and took advantage of humanity's weakness during the Age of Strife. Also, in terms of the Great Crusade, nothing helps drive expansion than having a great "Other" to fight, which in this case is all xenos, given that the Emperor wanted to reunite humanity. Chaos was too insidious for the general public to know or have as the main enemy and to focus on mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars means there can't be exceptions to which xenos can live or die.

Hrmm.. So all he really needed was to encounter a bunch of friendly Space Monkeys.... (the Interex apparently had them)..

If you are all sourcing this to the Age of Strife, then i'm wondering if the Emperor during the Age of Dark Technology was "taking things easy" - Humanity was on the Move, new Dominant Player in the Cosmos.....

Maybe everything seemed so assured to him.....and then it all went to hell......

The Emperor was still "working from the shadows" during the Dark Age of Technology. But he foresaw the end of the Golden Age, and started taking steps to counter the future increase of Chaotic influence on Humanity.

 Karhedron wrote:
The Emperor was concerned with the survival of humanity above all else. Being nice to xenos doesn't really fit in with that.

In the old fluff, it was hinted that the Big E ran into a C'tanshard of the Void Dragon somewhen after the fall of the Roman Empire. He beat it which gave rise to the legend of St George slaying the Dragon.

As first contacts go, that would be likely to give you a pretty dim view of aliens. :p

Agreed! That’s one way to set the tone.

I think it's ultimately an almost plausible, if cynical view.

At the end of the day, no matter how nice/cute/fluffy the alien species is, any decision that humanity makes to favor their own species or another will be made in favor of humanity. Any decision that the Eldar/Tau/Orks make, ultimately, will be in their favor rather than humanity's.

That doesn't mean we need to burn them immediately, or nuke them all right now, but it means that we can't structure our society to allow us to make decisions that might prioritize the xenos over humans. It's almost like "hey, at some point, now or ten thousand years from now, this species will conflict with humanity in some significant way, so let's just go ahead and hate all of them right away." It would be like deciding never to get attached to any person, since at some point that person will die and be gone. Not the best decision, or the most life-affirming, but not exactly WRONG either.

Da Butcha wrote:


That doesn't mean we need to burn them immediately, or nuke them all right now, but it means that we can't structure our society to allow us to make decisions that might prioritize the xenos over humans. It's almost like "hey, at some point, now or ten thousand years from now, this species will conflict with humanity in some significant way, so let's just go ahead and hate all of them right away." It would be like deciding never to get attached to any person, since at some point that person will die and be gone. Not the best decision, or the most life-affirming, but not exactly WRONG either.

Ah, but you see herein lies the problem - the Interex's whole society is constructed in a manner that goes against what you've just stated.

The very existence of the society, one based on rather traditional SciFi conventions dating back to the Golden Age of Science Fiction (i'm looking at you Asimov), hits the Utopian notes that early SciFi favored. The author of the book consciously constructed a semi-egalitarian society that was more technologically advanced, more socially lenient, and had an understanding of Kaos (what they call Chaos) and how to combat it.

And then the Imperial Boot comes down on them hard.

There's always been assumption that 40K is by default "grimdark," - i'm beginning to wonder if that tone ( in the fictional world of 40K that is, i know it was a conscious decision in the real world by GW to appeal to a fan base) is merely the Outcome of the Emperor's own short-sightedness. Hell, even the Primarch Project required him to strike a deal with the Ruinous Powers, a deal that he thought he could come out ahead on.

The whole point of this thread is, in light of an obvious alternative path (or paths - the Olamic Quietude offered a different vision of humanity until the Space Wolves stomped on them), is about why the Emperor chose this particular route when others lay before him....

GrapeApe wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:


That doesn't mean we need to burn them immediately, or nuke them all right now, but it means that we can't structure our society to allow us to make decisions that might prioritize the xenos over humans. It's almost like "hey, at some point, now or ten thousand years from now, this species will conflict with humanity in some significant way, so let's just go ahead and hate all of them right away." It would be like deciding never to get attached to any person, since at some point that person will die and be gone. Not the best decision, or the most life-affirming, but not exactly WRONG either.

Ah, but you see herein lies the problem - the Interex's whole society is constructed in a manner that goes against what you've just stated.

The very existence of the society, one based on rather traditional SciFi conventions dating back to the Golden Age of Science Fiction (i'm looking at you Asimov), hits the Utopian notes that early SciFi favored. The author of the book consciously constructed a semi-egalitarian society that was more technologically advanced, more socially lenient, and had an understanding of Kaos (what they call Chaos) and how to combat it.

And then the Imperial Boot comes down on them hard.

There's always been assumption that 40K is by default "grimdark," - i'm beginning to wonder if that tone ( in the fictional world of 40K that is, i know it was a conscious decision in the real world by GW to appeal to a fan base) is merely the Outcome of the Emperor's own short-sightedness. Hell, even the Primarch Project required him to strike a deal with the Ruinous Powers, a deal that he thought he could come out ahead on.

The whole point of this thread is, in light of an obvious alternative path (or paths - the Olamic Quietude offered a different vision of humanity until the Space Wolves stomped on them), is about why the Emperor chose this particular route when others lay before him....

Warhammer 40k is a satire and things in it should not be take on face value. Of course as satire some people seem to have missed the point entirely.

In real life extremists and totalitarians often want to portray themselves as the only option, just like the Emperor and the Imperium do. No one sees themselves as the villains in their own story.

If we look at it from point of "grimdark-ness", which option is more darker, that the Emperor was right or that He wasn't, and all those horrible that He and his followers did where for nothing and that mankind is now doomed to die(or at least cease to mean anything) in a hell of it's own making. First options is like there's a serial killer out to get mankind with Space-Stalin being one to save us, while the second is existential horror of our own meekness and the inevitability of time. I prefer the latter, but to each their own.
F

How old is the Emperor? 45,000 years old or something? He was made 5000BC(ish) right?

I think the answer is pretty simple and you guys might be looking too hard for something that isn't there. After living for such a long time seeing everyone around you die over and over and over again. Continually seeing the folly of humanity repeating the same mistakes and almost destroy itself in the process. After witnessing humanity's own creation almost destroy themselves then seeing a ton of xenos races suddenly decide to take advantage of it - you'd be a bitter and twisted 'person' (if you can even call empy that) too.

He doesn't only hate xenos.
He hates mutants.
He hates chaos.
He hates humanity.

To me he is the most tragic part of all of 40k. Not because he is chained to the throne or because he was betrayed by his sons. He's tragic because he represents the very best humanity can be but ultimately even he cannot save humanity from itself. The reason he sets up such a fascist, xenophobic empire is because he truly believes (based on past experience) that humanity cannot operate successfully throughout the stars any other way. All the Imperial propaganda stating things like 'a serving mind is a peaceful mind' or 'idleness breeds heresy' is basically the Emperors view of humanity that has now been adopted by the Imperium. And how right he was. Humanity did the ONE THING he told them not to do - they deified him.

If he doesn't trust humans to do the right thing, there's not a snowball's chance in hell he's trusting xenos.

Personally I think he had a crush on a hot eldar girl once and she told him she wasn't into beastiality.

Techpriestsupport wrote:
Personally I think he had a crush on a hot eldar girl once and she told him she wasn't into beastiality.

^^^Real reason right here folks!!

On top of the crucial Age of Strife trauma and everything being taken to grimdark extremes by default in 40k, since the whole setting is constructed as a complete turnabout from the ideals modern man pursue, where said ideals instead become liabilities in a harsh reality:

Long term goal was likely to remove all potential competition, all outer threats. When there are no xenos left in the universe, who shall challenge mankind's dominion? Also, more living space for man.

The Emperor had lived for many millennia and fully knew from first-hand experience that the weak and meek today can grow strong and cruel in the far future. Better kill it off in the bud, no matter how capable of peaceful coexistence any non-human sentient species would seem to be for the moment. There shall never be the possibility of external threats, nor an alien fifth column within human territory.

Not vastly different from trying to kill off the Chaos gods: Another threat to be eradicated.

Kill or be killed, ladies and gentlemen. The Emperor wanted humanity to be the last man standing.

Yeah, the Imperium's current problem is that the Great Crusade was the realization of a Sociopathic Tyrant. The whole irony of the setting is that if the Great Crusade was to establish a Confederation rather than an Empire- or at least better at adopting what they encountered rather than smashing it, the majority of the grimdark would never have happened. Half the societies they encountered were arguably better than Earth's Techno-Barbarians, they just didn't have the Mechanicum to enable the greater interstellar travel.

The Emperor screwed things right from the start with his primarch project, and everything was destined to fall from there. Hell, imagine how the Imperium was seen from the viewpoint of each of those societies! It was like they were the alien invaders in most movies.

The Big E made a Faustian pact with Chaos in order to assure Humanity's supremacy over xenos species.

Then it all went to literal Hell.

Repeated blows to the head causing permanent brain damage.

That or he's just as stupid as an Ork.

Well, he's a tyrant. Don't Tyrants usually need an enemy that their people can unite against? Once Earth was unified, how are you going to justify your military dictatorship and convince everyone they need you? Can't tell them about the real threat, which is Chaos. So Aliens.

I like the point about the Emperor’s potential loathing of mortals in general. Perhaps he simply only takes other gods seriously and tends to think of any limited creatures as inconsequential.

He seemed to respect malcador.

Techpriestsupport wrote:
He seemed to respect malcador.

Was Malcador not human?? Did I somehow miss that?

Because the human society in 40K is completely fascist, so xenophobia comes with that package as standard, just in this case it is literal aliens.

He wanted to unite mankind, and as every good leader knows the only way to unite warring factions and keep them together is to present them with a common, external enemy.

Nothing brings people together like the irrational fear of someone who’s even just a little different... sad.