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Ok so I went and converted a repulsor to be a unique dark angels grav raider, comments welcome as I want to make this as balanced as possible.

Av14/14/14 BS4 4HP. Points:225
Type: Tank, skimmer
Weapons: plasma storm battery. Twin linked heavy bolter, point defence system (name it something cool for me).
Transport: 10
Special rules: lumbering behemoth, power of the machine spirit, PDS array, automantic reactor.
Options: you may upgrade the turret with ONE of the following weapons.
Anvillus autocannon 35pts
Accelerator cannon 40pts
Extra armour etc.

Weapons: plasma storm battery: range 36" str7 ap2 heavy 3.
Overcharge shot: range 36" str 7 ap2 heavy 1 blast 5" gets hot.
Anvilus autocannon: range 48" str8 ap3 heavy 2 sunder
Accelerator autocannon: range 48" str7 ap4 heavy 4, rending, auto tracking.

Lumbering behemoth: the vehicle can only move 6" per turn but counts as stationary for firing weapons, it can never "jink"
Automantic reactor: should the vehicle suffer an "explodes" result on the vehicle damage chart, treat the resulting explosion as "str4 ap- rending" any embarked passengers take a str6 ap- rending hit automatically.

What would this thing cost in points?

 Ashiraya wrote:
What would this thing cost in points?

DOH!

Forgot to put that part, I'll edit it.

It's 225 base due to several reasons, first is lack of assault ramp in addition its slower than a standard raider and lacks the lascannons, the turret then has options to upgrade the vehicle to be able to deal with tanks.

A tank better then a Land Raider with more fire power and is a skimmer, so can ignore terrain, gains an invulnerable save in the shooting phase, and requires a 4+ to hit in close combat and it costs as much as a Land Raider? Try again. This thing should be about 400+ points, especially when you consider that all its weapon options either ignore the MEQ armor save or gains a bonus on the armor penetration table and is on a turret so can shoot 360°.

The Lumbering Behemoth rule makes no sense on a skimmer. I guess we can ignore the jink save listed above, but everything else would still apply.

The pricing doesn't look way off and Lumbering Behemoth looks fine to me. I tend to dislike sticking extra AP2 large blasts into the game on principle, however; would recommend a less gigantic plasma gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
A tank better then a Land Raider with more fire power and is a skimmer, so can ignore terrain, gains an invulnerable save in the shooting phase, and requires a 4+ to hit in close combat and it costs as much as a Land Raider? Try again. This thing should be about 400+ points, especially when you consider that all its weapon options either ignore the MEQ armor save or gains a bonus on the armor penetration table and is on a turret so can shoot 360°.

The Lumbering Behemoth rule makes no sense on a skimmer. I guess we can ignore the jink save listed above, but everything else would still apply.

...Consider that this is 30k and you can get a Proteus with two twin lascannons for 180pts. The gun is good, but it's not "I'd rather have this than two Proteuses" good. I'd note that he's using "Atomantic Reactor" for a special rule relating to explosions, not in reference to the Contemptor rule (should probably be renamed).

Cheers for the feedback guys, will do some tidying up of the rules as Anomander suggests, this is why im asking you guys for feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
A tank better then a Land Raider with more fire power and is a skimmer, so can ignore terrain, gains an invulnerable save in the shooting phase, and requires a 4+ to hit in close combat and it costs as much as a Land Raider? Try again. This thing should be about 400+ points, especially when you consider that all its weapon options either ignore the MEQ armor save or gains a bonus on the armor penetration table and is on a turret so can shoot 360°.

The Lumbering Behemoth rule makes no sense on a skimmer. I guess we can ignore the jink save listed above, but everything else would still apply.

Cheers for the feedback Tamwulf.

This tank is not better than a land raider, its a side shift, it lacks assault ramps for starters which is a big sell for the land raider, yep its a skimmer but its in an Ironwing army so the terrain benefits are marginal at best, but I get your point, it doesnt get an Invun save the name was for the explosion effects only, but as its caused some confusion I will change the name, it doesnt require a 4+ to hit in CC as its WS1 in CC like all vehicles that move in 30k, its the same costs as a standard raider but costs more points to upgrade the weapons, otherwise its a land raider with a funky plasma cannon array (so objectively worse weapons) and no assault ramp.

some of its weapons ignore MEQ save true, but its HH, such weapons are very very common, none of its weapons gain any bonus on the Pen table, one has rending and the other RR failed armour pen, if taken the tank is min 260pts.

Bare in mind however this is just the test version, I plan on ajusting it as I play it and based on your guys feedback, said feedback is slightly more difficult when you dont seem to know some of the rules (no offence intended) and overestimate the power of vehicles in HH, but I thank you for your help none the less.

 Formosa wrote:
Cheers for the feedback guys, will do some tidying up of the rules as Anomander suggests, this is why im asking you guys for feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
A tank better then a Land Raider with more fire power and is a skimmer, so can ignore terrain, gains an invulnerable save in the shooting phase, and requires a 4+ to hit in close combat and it costs as much as a Land Raider? Try again. This thing should be about 400+ points, especially when you consider that all its weapon options either ignore the MEQ armor save or gains a bonus on the armor penetration table and is on a turret so can shoot 360°.

The Lumbering Behemoth rule makes no sense on a skimmer. I guess we can ignore the jink save listed above, but everything else would still apply.

Cheers for the feedback Tamwulf.

This tank is not better than a land raider, its a side shift, it lacks assault ramps for starters which is a big sell for the land raider, yep its a skimmer but its in an Ironwing army so the terrain benefits are marginal at best, but I get your point, it doesnt get an Invun save the name was for the explosion effects only, but as its caused some confusion I will change the name, it doesnt require a 4+ to hit in CC as its WS1 in CC like all vehicles that move in 30k, its the same costs as a standard raider but costs more points to upgrade the weapons, otherwise its a land raider with a funky plasma cannon array (so objectively worse weapons) and no assault ramp.

Only one variant of the Land Raider has an assault ramp: The Land Raider Phobos, which is 225 points without options. Sorry, 3+ to hit in close combat. Also, giving it PofMS means it can always fire it's main armament, and because you give it the lame HB, gives it a 50% chance of being able to continue shooting it with weapon destroyed.

some of its weapons ignore MEQ save true, but its HH, such weapons are very very common, none of its weapons gain any bonus on the Pen table, one has rending and the other RR failed armour pen, if taken the tank is min 260pts.

You are wrong about the armor penetration. See below. And any weapon with AV3 or better comes at a premium in points. Such weapons are not so readily available, but cost a lot of points when they are.

The Phobus has two TLLC's on side sponson mounts, and one hull mounted TLHB. This has a "Plasma Storm Battery" that has two different firing modes that are both AP2. AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, and only one mode has 'Gets Hot'. The primary armament has a 360° field of fire. It can be both anti vehicle or anti-infantry. Makes it better then two TLLC's on side sponson mounts. The options... Anvilus has sunder, so reroll failed armor penetration. Accelerator Autocannon, sorry, it's only AP4, but rending and auto tracking. Rending makes it a AV roll of 14-16. Or Makes it AP2. And will score a penetrating hit against any flyer in the game (OK, maybe not a Thunderhawk with Flare Shields). All the main weapon options add some kind of extra damage vs vehicles.

Bare in mind however this is just the test version, I plan on ajusting it as I play it and based on your guys feedback, said feedback is slightly more difficult when you dont seem to know some of the rules (no offence intended) and overestimate the power of vehicles in HH, but I thank you for your help none the less.

Still ignoring the fact that it's a skimmer and so won't ever have to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test. That's at least a +5 point upgrade Dozer Blade on other vehicles just to re-roll difficult terrain tests. How much is it worth to just ignore terrain altogether?

In summary: You are basically making a Land Raider Skimmer with a better main weapon. I'll kindly ignore your little personal attack on me about not knowing the rules when I only made one mistake about the vehicles in close combat thing (4+ vs. 3+). 400 points.

It's difficult to comment on things people have invested their creativity in.

The overcharge shot on the plasma storm batteries should be small blast at most i recon.
Bear in mind that a plasma executioner predator puts out three small blast templates at the same S and AP
Pus, the Gets Hot! rule changed, i don't know if you spotted that
I think plasma on vehicles got a bit safer with the AoDRB

Only one variant of the Land Raider has an assault ramp: The Land Raider Phobos, which is 225 points without options. Sorry, 3+ to hit in close combat. Also, giving it PofMS means it can always fire it's main armament, and because you give it the lame HB, gives it a 50% chance of being able to continue shooting it with weapon destroyed.

2 Raiders to my knowledge, standard and spartan, this is no spartan, standard raider is 225 basic yep, which is why this is, standard raider is better vs tanks, this is better vs infantry. POTMS is due to it being a Raider variant, it has a HB due to the model coming with it and all land raiders bar the phobos come with the hull mounted weapon, hence why I kept it, without the turret it does indeed have a 50/50 chance to lose its main armament or the HB, where as the standard raider has a lower chance to lose a main weapon, 1 weapon destroyed result and the Plasma battery is gone.

You are wrong about the armor penetration. See below. And any weapon with AP3 or better comes at a premium in points. Such weapons are not so readily available, but cost a lot of points when they are.

No Im not, you said armour pen table, only the plasma weapons do that, nothing else does, AP3 and above weapons are very common in 30k and dont always cost a lot of point, the Plasma pred is 130pts for 3 small blast plasma shots, for the amount of damage it can do, thats is very cheap, this just gets 1 large blast or 3 plasma gun shots, hardly game breaking by any standard.

The Phobus has two TLLC's on side sponson mounts, and one hull mounted TLHB. This has a "Plasma Storm Battery" that has two different firing modes that are both AP2. AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, and only one mode has 'Gets Hot'. The primary armament has a 360° field of fire. It can be both anti vehicle or anti-infantry. Makes it better then two TLLC's on side sponson mounts. The options... Anvilus has sunder, so reroll failed armor penetration. Accelerator Autocannon, sorry, it's only AP4, but rending and auto tracking. Rending makes it a AV roll of 14-16. Or Makes it AP2. And will score a penetrating hit against any flyer in the game (OK, maybe not a Thunderhawk with Flare Shields). All the main weapon options add some kind of extra damage vs vehicles.

The "plasma storm battery" is taken straight from codex dark angels, and it has these 2 different firing modes, in total the Land speeder vengeance costs 120pts for a more durable platform (4+ or better RR cover in 7th), yep its AP 2 as it should be.

Yep the Turret has 360" fire, but thats not something anything ever pays for so moving on from that, it is heavy anti infantry with slight anti tank abilities, 2 non twin linked anvilus cannon shots isnt game breaking, nor are 4 non twin linked accelerator shots, both cost points and are nearly the same as the twin linked versions with less shots, so again, hardly game breaking, Auto tracking is something I can happily drop as it doesnt really seem to fit the theme, I just kept it there as the Sicarion accelerator cannon has it too, sure it can pen a flyer, but it still hits them on a 6+ all auto tracking does is deny jink, and again you said "armor penetration table" which is why I said you were wrong.

Still ignoring the fact that it's a skimmer and so won't ever have to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test. That's at least a +5 point upgrade Dozer Blade on other vehicles just to re-roll difficult terrain tests. How much is it worth to just ignore terrain altogether?

Ignoring the fact that all my vehicles ignore difficult and dangerous terrain as Ironwing and skimmers dont ignore these terrains, they move over them but if they land on them they take the test like everyone else....

So after 10 games with this vehicle a few slight issues have become apparent, it was 5 games with turret and 5 games without.

The main chassis without the turret is slightly overcosted, about 5-10pts, it's main gun is very easy to strip, it's slow speed combined with its mid strength weapon makes it somewhat difficult to position, but that was intended.

With the turret, again the turrets are slightly overcosted, so dropping the anvilus to 30 and the accelerator to 35.

This brings the cost to 220 for the main chassis and 250/255 with the turret, when using it on the table it had equivalent firepower to a standard land raider (225pts) for 25/30pts more, this seems like a good spot at the moment.