Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play an ork army based around the contents of the Start Collecting Orks kit. My favorite model in the army is the ork deff dread, but a friend of mine claims dreads are universally accepted to be horrible units . Does anyone have a second opinion and/or experience regarding their effectiveness?

Tried using the deff dread in prior editions and all it ever did was get shot to pieces before ever doing anything. Minute that models moves from out of cover everything on the board seemed to fire at it.. it’s slow, poor armor, shoots horrible if equip, and in prior ed way over cost for what it could do. Not sure about now but I’m sure not much has changed...is a nice looking model so has that going for it.

It's probably the worst unit in the ork index. If you really like and want to play it keep it as cheap as possible with two big shootas.

The dread is utterly overcosted at the moment, really hard to justify it even in casual metas.

I’ve used the Deff Dread in many of my lists and I still don’t know what the Deff Dread is supposed to be used for. I took two against Blood Angels and one proceeded to tarpit a squad of Incessors(whatever the basic Primaris unit is called). But it died after three turns.

I had given it a skorcha and Big Shoota. Big shootas are just not worth it, MEQ in Cover(2+) is unaffected by AP0 shooting.

I’m still working out what to kit mine with, but my feeling is if you want it to do anything don’t kit it for long range. It’s not meant to be a gun platform and won’t make its points back by shooting a random weapon with poor BS. At this point Skorchas and Extra Klaws are what you’ll want to look at.

That’s what I’ve been finding out.

Deff dreads could be usable if you homerule them to cost at least 2 times lower than they currently do.

Yeah, dreads aren't great. I run a few in my dredd mob list because I have some models that are either the offical deff dread model or too small to justify as a killa kan, but I vastly prefer kanz in 8th ed.

If you run the dredd, run him alongside a big mek with kff to repair him/shield him and near a nob with waagh banner to make him hit harder.

In some of my games he (with 4 klaws) did very well with his KFF big mek as babysitter. Going from vehicule to vehicule, destroing all of them

But in most games, he just tried to get close and was wrecked or tarpited by infantry
Very expensive anyway

Tried using a Deffdread with all klaws in a melee heavy game and he ended up just stuck in combat maybe kiling 10 points of multi wound infantry a round while getting chip damaged to death. My Killa Kanz did far better despite their big shootas being next to useless as large mobs of kanz have a lot of melee attacks and wounds for a decent points cost. I would hate to see how a Dread would do in a shooting heavy battle as they are still slow to waddle across the battlefield and aren't all that durable while looking scary to the opponent (distraction carnifex syndrome).

 Vankraken wrote:
Tried using a Deffdread with all klaws in a melee heavy game and he ended up just stuck in combat maybe kiling 10 points of multi wound infantry a round while getting chip damaged to death. My Killa Kanz did far better despite their big shootas being next to useless as large mobs of kanz have a lot of melee attacks and wounds for a decent points cost. I would hate to see how a Dread would do in a shooting heavy battle as they are still slow to waddle across the battlefield and aren't all that durable while looking scary to the opponent (distraction carnifex syndrome).

I always spring for rokkits on my kanz. BS4+ platform is no joke!

I asked a buddy who played(plays?) orks how to keep his Deff dread alive. he said take a stompa.

On the other hand, 3 killa kans seems like a better bet on the field for a few more points.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Tried using a Deffdread with all klaws in a melee heavy game and he ended up just stuck in combat maybe kiling 10 points of multi wound infantry a round while getting chip damaged to death. My Killa Kanz did far better despite their big shootas being next to useless as large mobs of kanz have a lot of melee attacks and wounds for a decent points cost. I would hate to see how a Dread would do in a shooting heavy battle as they are still slow to waddle across the battlefield and aren't all that durable while looking scary to the opponent (distraction carnifex syndrome).

I always spring for rokkits on my kanz. BS4+ platform is no joke!

I was more of a grotzooka guy back in 6th/7th but now the things are basically more garbage than the ammo they shoot. Rokkits are the better ranged weapon but they are so zogging expensive.

1) People bring one Deff Dread in lists that don't have a lot of vehicles to shoot
2) Lists do not support the Dread as a serious element
3) Additional klaws and guns should be slightly cheaper

Pros
- You can take 3 in a slot
- You can get it a 5++
- It can have the most attacks of any standard dread
- You can give it +1 to hit
- It can reroll failed charges

Cons
- It costs maybe 15 points too much
- S5 base (but S12 doesn't add that much anyway)

Seriously I think the problem is that people put one in their list and expect it to be amazing while they go off and support everything else in the army.

If you want to use them and have them be great - put some effort into it. Ork dreads are not vastly different than others in the game and can be the most top notch CC dread out there. 18 attacks that hit on 2s and a 5++ to get them there for under 600 is no joke.

Anecdotally, I once had a Deff Dread one-shot a Nurgle Daemon Prince.

Also anecdotally, I killed on with Plague Drones very easily. Barely even buffed too.

So... Mileage may vary.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seriously I think the problem is that people put one in their list and expect it to be amazing

No, the problem is that it sucks on every level, target saturation has very little to do with it. It's not 15pts overcosted, more like 50. It's more expensive than a Helbrute, yet has less BS, less Strength and less attacks (2 ATTACKS ?! C'mon...).

Seriously, watch some Frontline Gaming battle reports involving Orks. Their Ork army is 9 Kanz, 2 or 3 Dreads and 2 Morka/Gorkanauts (so plenty of armored targets), yet it *always* fails to achieve anything. Dread Mob lists could only work if they had better mobility (not going to happen) or vastly inferior point costs.

I even tried to combine Dreads with fast elements (Battlewagons, Trukks), but they're so bad it hurts. There's a reason you never see CC Marine Dreads. No delivery system on slow CC units makes them worthless.

I think the major problem is that many factions of a counter (hellburte, dreadnought, ect...) that are cheaper or about the same price but have 10X more uses and better stats (obviously an over estimate but you get my point).

 Nym wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seriously I think the problem is that people put one in their list and expect it to be amazing

No, the problem is that it sucks on every level, target saturation has very little to do with it. It's not 15pts overcosted, more like 50. It's more expensive than a Helbrute, yet has less BS, less Strength and less attacks (2 ATTACKS ?! C'mon...).

Seriously, watch some Frontline Gaming battle reports involving Orks. Their Ork army is 9 Kanz, 2 or 3 Dreads and 2 Morka/Gorkanauts (so plenty of armored targets), yet it *always* fails to achieve anything. Dread Mob lists could only work if they had better mobility (not going to happen) or vastly inferior point costs.

I even tried to combine Dreads with fast elements (Battlewagons, Trukks), but they're so bad it hurts. There's a reason you never see CC Marine Dreads. No delivery system on slow CC units makes them worthless.

Yea I just watched one where he faced up nurgle with -2 to hit, had no psychic defense, and got rolled by virulent plus banner so that a simple plaguesword does 4 damage. I'm not sure how that's indicative of a deek dreads - anything is going to crumble under that if they don't stop that spell.

 Nym wrote:

No, the problem is that it sucks on every level, target saturation has very little to do with it. It's not 15pts overcosted, more like 50. It's more expensive than a Helbrute, yet has less BS, less Strength and less attacks (2 ATTACKS ?! C'mon...).
.

Don't they have 4 attacks? 2 base and then 2 more one for each klaw at a minimum? 6 attacks if they take the 4 klaw option?

And 50 points over cost? So they should be sub 100 points, with T7, 8w, and 3+ save? That seems a little extreme.

While I think that they could get some time in the 120-140 range, I think the real problem is what someone else said, they are not a good integral part in the current competitive force of mass boys.

Reemule wrote:

 Nym wrote:

No, the problem is that it sucks on every level, target saturation has very little to do with it. It's not 15pts overcosted, more like 50. It's more expensive than a Helbrute, yet has less BS, less Strength and less attacks (2 ATTACKS ?! C'mon...).
.

Don't they have 4 attacks? 2 base and then 2 more one for each klaw at a minimum? 6 attacks if they take the 4 klaw option?

And 50 points over cost? So they should be sub 100 points, with T7, 8w, and 3+ save? That seems a little extreme.

While I think that they could get some time in the 120-140 range, I think the real problem is what someone else said, they are not a good integral part in the current competitive force of mass boys.

Dude, a normal dreadnought with better long range and cc is 134pts. It has 8 wounds, T7, and 4 built in S12 -3ap D3 attacks...

 lolman1c wrote:

Dude, a normal dreadnought with better long range and cc is 134pts. It has 8 wounds, T7, and 4 built in S12 -3ap D3 attacks...

And 4 attacks to the DD's 6 with no option for 5++, +1 to hit, or reroll charges. DD is also T7 w/ 8 wounds - S12 is pretty irrelevant. A DD w/ 2 KMB and 2 klaws is 137.

Furthermore a regular dread has to forgo all ranged to get 5 attacks where the DD can get 5 attacks and still have a rokkit or KMB.

Yes, the dread's shooting is better by virtue of BS even though it pays 50 for a TL Las and the DD pays 24 for 2 rokkits or 18 for 2 KMB. But you aren't using both his ranged and melee like a DD can.

Reemule wrote:


Don't they have 4 attacks? 2 base and then 2 more one for each klaw at a minimum? 6 attacks if they take the 4 klaw option?

And 50 points over cost? So they should be sub 100 points, with T7, 8w, and 3+ save? That seems a little extreme.

In 7th edition dreads were 80pts and still sucked hard. The dread with 4 klaws should be around 100 points, nothing more than that. Remember that it's a slow CC unit with no invuln. It will usually die before having the possibility of reaching combat in most of the games. And I mean casual games, not competitive ones.

The stock dread with two big shootas is 131 points so yes, it need a 50 points reduction to be viable.

I think they just need some speed to be effective. Nobody goes out of their way to assault orks really, so you are stuck having to go to them since Ork shooting is...unreliable.

 Blackie wrote:

Reemule wrote:


Don't they have 4 attacks? 2 base and then 2 more one for each klaw at a minimum? 6 attacks if they take the 4 klaw option?

And 50 points over cost? So they should be sub 100 points, with T7, 8w, and 3+ save? That seems a little extreme.

In 7th edition dreads were 80pts and still sucked hard. The dread with 4 klaws should be around 100 points, nothing more than that. Remember that it's a slow CC unit with no invuln. It will usually die before having the possibility of reaching combat in most of the games. And I mean casual games, not competitive ones.

The stock dread with two big shootas is 131 points so yes, it need a 50 points reduction to be viable.

That's really absurd. It is 2" slower, but rerolls charges. It otherwise has the same toughness and wounds of any other dread in the game. If you want to drop it 50 points i'll show you an army with 18 dreadnoughts.

The Deff Dread has no saving grace. It's too expensive, too slow, too weak and too fragile for it's points. The units that synergise with it all suffer from terrible pricing themselves (Banner Nob, Kanz, G/Morkanauts, Stompa, Big Mek etc) so if you go that route you're just doubling down on inefficiency. If you don't go for target saturation then one unit will never get where it needs to be, which is pretty similar to how it goes when you do gun for saturation.

It seems (I'm no mathhammerer) objectively worse than its equivalent in other factions with no strengths to make up the shortfall. Reroll charges is great, but it's slowness detracts from the benefit. S5 is sort of insulting considering it's the same as a Nob. Flat 3 Damage is pretty good though and with an appropriate points reduction for it and our other walkers, coupled with Klan benefits, there's no reason it can't be serviceable in the future.

Other dreads fire at BS3+ and some of them have invulns, that's the huge difference. SM and hellbrutes can do something even if they don't reach combat. Ork dreads don't.

Even at 80-90 points the deff dread will be a fluff unit for casual games only, and maybe decent in dread mobz. An army with tons of ork dread would be very bad since they have no answers to hordes. And still poor shooting.

They need to be way cheaper than now or way faster to be justified in a list. Or maybe they should get BS4+ and better weapons like an AP-1 to big shootas or twice the shots. Alternatively some way to reduce wounds or regain some health.

At the moment the dread is really among the worst units in the game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

Dude, a normal dreadnought with better long range and cc is 134pts. It has 8 wounds, T7, and 4 built in S12 -3ap D3 attacks...

And 4 attacks to the DD's 6 with no option for 5++, +1 to hit, or reroll charges. DD is also T7 w/ 8 wounds - S12 is pretty irrelevant. A DD w/ 2 KMB and 2 klaws is 137.

Furthermore a regular dread has to forgo all ranged to get 5 attacks where the DD can get 5 attacks and still have a rokkit or KMB.

Yes, the dread's shooting is better by virtue of BS even though it pays 50 for a TL Las and the DD pays 24 for 2 rokkits or 18 for 2 KMB. But you aren't using both his ranged and melee like a DD can.

Seriously… we’re going to go with that logic…. Well… I guess here we go…

DD vs Dreadnought (for 3 nights only!):

Ranged – Round 1

1 DD equals With Big Shootas is 131pts

6 shots, 2 hits, 0.66 wounds, and a total 0.074 wounds caused (this and further maths counts the armour save of defender)

1 Dreadnought with AC and Storm Bolter (let’s say he’s not in rapid fire range because he stood still at spawn) is 134pts

6 shots, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.66 wounds caused

+ 0.148 for bolter and that’s 0.808 chance to do wounds before you even get to CC.

So in ranged we have a win for the dreadnought so far at base equipment

Ranged -Round 2

So now we spice some stuff up like you suggested Dave and add some of the extra weapons we might see:

1 DD Equals with 2 Rockets is 143 Pts

2 shots, 0.667 hits, 0.444 wounds, and a total of 0.889 wounds caused!

1 Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons, ect… is 162 pts

2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.889 wounds caused, 0.7 unsaved wounds and a total of 2.593 damage!

So far dreadnought continues to win! Wow… that 20pts difference was actually worth the 1.7 more damage. Especially when you consider you could roll that 6!

Ranged Round 3!

1 DD with 2 FMB issssss 137pts!!!!

2 shots, 0.667 hits, 0.444 wounds, and a total of 0.74 wounds caused! Plus any mortal wounds to yourself from getting 1s.

Let's do a dreadnought with a Heavy Plasma for the Looools! - 142pts (let's overcharge cus we want to smell that freshly cooked dead corpse of a space marine on the inside!)

D3, 1.33 hits, 0.889 wounds, 1.4 damage.... well looks like it's freshly cooked Orks tonight!

Soooooo…. Looks like Dreadnought is winning the Long range battles… let’s move onto CC Dreadnought Vs DD!!!! Dun Dun Duuuuuun!

Round 1

Let’s start of basic…. 1 DD equals 131pts With Big Shootas…

So!
4 attacks, 2.6 hit, 1.77 wounds caused with a total offff 4.44 damage! Yey you did something for once!

1 Dreadnought with AC and Storm Bolter is 134pts

4 attacks, 2.6 hit, 1.77 wounds caused with a total offff 4.44 damage! Holy flying conscript batman! We’re neck n’ neck!

Round 2 FIGHT

THE SPICE!

A whole 4 dread claws on the DD? What are you cray cray? – 149pts

6 attacks, 4 hit, 2.6 wounds caused with a total of 6.6 dammmmaaaage! Thank you! Thank you! I couldn’t have done it without giving up all my long ranged weapons and becoming 149pts.

What’s this you say? The dreadnought…. He’s got a twin heavy flamer? And he just used it in overwatch? And only for 146pts?

Oh crap… he still did a wound despite all odds and brought it back to do 5.44 damage in total! And for a whole 3pts less! What a thrilling battle kids… I hope you join us next time!

BUT WIAT THEY’RES MORE!

So… 5 plus inulin you say, Eyyy? Rerolling charges you say, Eyyy? Well well well, let’s add up the score and see who’s right!

So… 1 DD with the KFF, with the Banner would be…. Well let me see here… carry the 1… add the 15… ermmm…. 303pts!!! That’s a whole 2 dreadnoughts doing 10 damages! Yikes!

Oh… but lest us not forget my fellow Orklings that the evil and spooky Dreadnought has some tricks of his own! REROLLL ALL DA 1S! Yes, for a grand old CP you could reroll those 1s all the time everywhere! What’s what? I hear some heavenly noise… is that… books? OMG it’s da librarian!!!

For only 230pts for Dreadnought with their very own librarian you too could be rerolling charges just like the Orks! Also why not fight first in the fight phase? Or!!! Here’s a +1 to all Attacks, Strength and Toughness! That’s right! You could even be wounding on a 2!

5 attacks!!! 3.33 hits! Annnnnddddd 7 damage!!!!!!! (That plus 1 to strength is useless my Green Arse!!!)

Freaking hell… here comes the chaplain…now we’re at 302pts and doing an average of 9. 259 damage in cc so we might as well just give up now…

Hark… an angle…. (this is my last sales pitch I swear). The Emperor has gifted us a Venable dreadnought for only 20pts more and he does everything the old one did but on 2s and a 6 up FNP… so yeah… Dreadnought wins in my mind.

Please be aware this is all based on averages and 3 damage will not lead to an even number. User experience may vary.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I think they just need some speed to be effective. Nobody goes out of their way to assault orks really, so you are stuck having to go to them since Ork shooting is...unreliable.

This has been the problem with all Dreadnought meele variants. Not the price.

I'll tell you something. A Deepstriking Venerable Contemtpor Dreadnought of the Custodes is very, very letal. Its not used very much because: The Model sucks, and its a little overcosted.

But you feel the difference between a Dreadnought that can deepstrike and one that cannot.

Of course, this doesn't mean the Deff Dread hasn't worse issues like price, bad stats, total lack of sinergy, etc... but how slow dreadnoughts are, I believe, is what makes meele dreadnoughts really... hard to make competitive.

I love my contempt dreadnought! (he's just the base on). He's got a 5++ invuln and everything! 160pts but him and my Chaplain once punched Mortarion to death like a dying dog. XD

 lolman1c wrote:
Snip

This is one of the best posts I have ever read.

xlDuke wrote:
too weak and too fragile for it's points.

So where does that place regular dreadnoughts?

The units that synergise with it all suffer from terrible pricing themselves (Banner Nob, Kanz, G/Morkanauts, Stompa, Big Mek etc) so if you go that route you're just doubling down on inefficiency. If you don't go for target saturation then one unit will never get where it needs to be, which is pretty similar to how it goes when you do gun for saturation.

A 75 point banner and 79 point mek is too much? On units you're going to take anyway? We're talking a heal, 5++ for as many as you can fit in 9" and a banner than benefits all your units.

S5 is sort of insulting considering it's the same as a Nob.

It's irrelevant unless you're fighting T6 a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Other dreads fire at BS3+ and some of them have invulns, that's the huge difference. SM and hellbrutes can do something even if they don't reach combat. Ork dreads don't.

And they pay more for their weapons and a contemptor has a 5++ (and 2 wounds) for 28 points more.

Even at 80-90 points the deff dread will be a fluff unit for casual games only

I don't even know what to say to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


ZOMG guys.

AC/Las Pred is 18 points moar.

LC - 2 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 3.1
AC - 4 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 3 = 4.4

WoW!! A predator does 4.9 damage more! What a pathetic dreadnought you have there for only 18 points less!

If you want to make silly mathhammer comparisons that apply to all dreadnoughts in general I can, too. Keep it in context. The lascannons of your opponent need to have others things to shoot - THAT GOES FOR ANY UNIT.

But for giggles - the theoretical DD w/ +1 to hit versus their CC specialist.
6 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 8.3 //Or a dead dreadnought

Alternatively a Dreadnought (with reroll 1s)...
5 * .777 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 6.5

Regular Dreadnoughts are also quite bad so I'm told, have read and experienced. Yes I think the the Banner Nob and Big Mek are too expensive. The Mek is a Nob with +2 wounds, +1 Ld and Meks Tools for +38 points. Compared to a 'free' Boss Nob this comparison becomes worse. The KFF is well priced but the base model is egregiously expensive. The Banner Nob is not an HQ (doesn't help with CP or detachment filling), is a Nob with +1 wound, a Big Choppa without AP and an aura that is difficult to get great use out of for +51 points (compared to a Big Choppa Nob).

Don't get me wrong, +1 WS is a great buff but is much harder to use than +1 BS or reroll 1s in the shooting phase. If it was slightly cheaper it would be much more appealing.