Switch Theme:

Euprachti Keeler - Theories  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Personally I really liked Keeler in the opening few Horus Heresy novels and it is a slight shame they haven't been able to incorporate her more fully into the ongoing narrative.

- Shes the first Imperial Saint.
- Shes the first person to manifest the God Emperors power. Even Lorgar did not do this.
- She gives Sigismund a nudge that is arguably going to snowball into the Black Templars.
- She obviously influences Garro.
- They are setting up that she has a major impact on spreading the early Church.

Since we are getting close to the end game this makes me wonder how they are going to tie up the story of one of the original character which started the Horus Heresy. Personally I think it should be something suitably major and that ties into 40k. They have done this before:

Spoiler:

Formation of the Grey Knights
Formation of the Inquisition
The Sanguinor
Black Templars
Raptors Chapter


Which makes a lot of sense. At its core the Horus Heresy is a prequel novel so it makes sense that the roots of a lot of things we see in 40k would get explained here. So what could they do?

1) Keeler founds the Ecclesiarchy

Outside of any prior lore this sounds pretty straight forward. However, in the old Sisters of Battle codex its stated that the Church was founded by an Imperial Army veteran who fought at Terra. Who was a dude. So you would have to put in quite a major retcon for that to work. Since they did an Eisenhorn short story where Keelers images were considered holy icons this means they can't chalk this down to distorted history. People knew who that historical figure was. Now, they could have it where she is the reason and inspiration why this Imperial Army guy goes on to found the Ecclesiarchy (BTW I am not 100% on all the short stories so let me know if this has happened), but I feel that wouldn't conclusively end her story.

2) Keeler somehow founds the Sisters of Battle

I know I know. But hear me out. Shes a woman and manifests an act of faith. This is something that SoB do. That's a pretty solid connection. We know that the SoB are found by Goge Vandire 5000 years after the Heresy. Theres nothing to say that Keeler didn't go to San Leor. Shes currently on Terra, but that seems to be because its where shes needed. For example she appears to have become ethereal and sort of aware of future events such as the betrayel at Istvaan and saying that Sigismund would be needed. So, if she knows that going to this backwater world and creating the SoB will eventually have big repercussions down the line that would IMO make a lot of sense. If Keeler can see the future then she has reason to do this since she would be aware of the butterfly effect these actions would have.

3) Keeler is Celestine

Aside from the aforementioned parallels between her powers and those Sisters of Battle manifest theres a few things which point to this.

Her role in the Horus Heresy has been exactly the same as how Celestine was depicted during the Gathering Storm. She is this ethereal individual who is being guided by the Emperor and trying to bring events to a preferred outcome
Spoiler:
Try to save Cadia, know that she will meet Eldar who can bring G man back
. Keeler is also referred to increasingly as "The Saint" the Horus Heresy. Now Celestine isn't the only Saint but she is by far the most prominent and they have already done similar origin stories
Spoiler:
such as the Sanguinor
. This tendency makes me feel its less likely that they would make her her own character whose role would play out.

Celestine is also immortal. This makes it certainly possible that she could have been alive for that long. Why would the Emperor only decide to have such an agent doing his will in the 41st millennium and wouldn't have done this when he was about to be interred on the Golden Throne.

So its possible that Celestine is simply a title that Keeler has taken for herself. That she lived so many lives and become so dedicated to the Emperors cause that he former life and identity fell away from her. The fact she is called the Saint instead of Keeler is pretty significant.

This wouldn't be inconsistent with the Sisters of Battle lore. All that was known about Celestine was that she was a Sister Repentia who died and was reincarnated. Theres nothing to say that she had actually been doing other things.

Also, the subject of immortality and individuals being empowered by the Emperor has been a plot point, one quite notable in fact, in the Horus Heresy. Celestine is, pretty much the only Imperial character who has similar abilities to that. Which would suggest that the writers might be building up to turning Keeler into Celestine origin story.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





Glasgow, Scotland

Something I haven't particularly seen a lot of people bring up (and maybe I'm not looking hard enough) is that the first daemon that Keeler vanquishes using the "power of the Emperor" is quite clearly, from it's description, a Horror.

This is something that's really stuck with me from the first time I read that scene, and I'm honestly surprised that - from what I've read online - Keeler as a character hasn't really gone anywhere.

My personal theory about Keeler is that her first act as a "saint" was simply a Tzeentchian ploy. It would be just like Tzeentch to play the long game, and completely screw with humanity and The Imperial Truth as a means of destabilizing them - ultimately, I think the Ecclesiarchy is a bad thing, and that's Tzeentch would've known this.

I think Keeler will go on to have an impact on founding the Ecclesiarchy in some manner, and I fully believe this was a "just as planned" approach from Tzeentch.

10,000 30K/40K Space Wolves, 6000pts 30K Iron Warriors, 3200pts Daemons of the Ruinstorm
3500pts AoS Maggotkin of Nurgle, 3000pts AoS Stormcast Eternals, 2000pts AoS Skaven
1800pts Middle-earth Rivendell, 1000pts Grey Company, 600pts Iron Hills
1800pts Middle-earth Angmar, 1100pts Moria, 1000pts Dol Guldur
Blood Bowl Skaven, Blood Bowl Orcs

Blog | Twitter | Instagram | Middle-earth SBG Hero Tracker - now on the Play Store
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Have you read/ listened to The Keeper Image?
Confirms Keeler as one of the first saints and founders of the imperial religion.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Have you read/ listened to The Keeper Image?
Confirms Keeler as one of the first saints and founders of the imperial religion.


I haven't read that one.

I guess there can be more than one founder however I assumed they would give her a more central role. Although they could retcon the 2nd ed SoB codex on who founded the Ecclesiarchy.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not necessarily, the cult of the god emperor was around before the Ecclesiarchy

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Haanz wrote:
Something I haven't particularly seen a lot of people bring up (and maybe I'm not looking hard enough) is that the first daemon that Keeler vanquishes using the "power of the Emperor" is quite clearly, from it's description, a Horror.

This is something that's really stuck with me from the first time I read that scene, and I'm honestly surprised that - from what I've read online - Keeler as a character hasn't really gone anywhere.

My personal theory about Keeler is that her first act as a "saint" was simply a Tzeentchian ploy. It would be just like Tzeentch to play the long game, and completely screw with humanity and The Imperial Truth as a means of destabilizing them - ultimately, I think the Ecclesiarchy is a bad thing, and that's Tzeentch would've known this.

I think Keeler will go on to have an impact on founding the Ecclesiarchy in some manner, and I fully believe this was a "just as planned" approach from Tzeentch.


I don't think that adds up.

We know people can manifest the power of the Emperor in 40k. Her doing that is part of the book unraveling the falsehood that they live in a rational universe where there aren't Daemons and Gods.

A key theme of the Heresy is that the Imperial Truth is a lie and its one of the prime reasons why the Heresy happens. Trying to impose secularism on Lorgar leads to him falling to Chaos and then turning Horus. Not telling Horus or his brothers meant they were more easily manipulated and less aware of the nature of the threat they were facing. Would Fulgrim have attacked clearly Slanneshi world and took Daemon Sword had he known the nature and corruption of chaos. Sanguinous in Ruinstorm laments that his father did not warn them. In Master of Mankind the Emperor tries to justify this by saying, essentially, they didn't need to know and he couldn't have foreseen what them not knowing would cause.

Also, much of the technological regression of the Imperium is the fault of the Admech who are not part of the Ecclesiarchy and their beliefs predate the Emperor. Plus the damage done during the Heresy did a lot to regress Imperial technology and can't be blamed on the Ecclesiarchy.

Plus its been insinuated that people who have religious beliefs have more protection against the influence of chaos. In Ruinstorm, a world is consumed by the warp and the only people left alive are those who worship the Emperor as a God. Why would Chaos knowingly allow the Imperium to gain protection. Again, in Ruinstorm, Sanguinious sees the future and it makes clear that Chaos IS playing to win. They want the full on End Times and for the Galaxy to be eaten by Chaos. They have no desire for some kind of stalemate. It makes far more sense to kill Keeler. Tzeentch also, must have assumed that Horus was going to win; so whatever plan he had failed.

Also, if they had conspired for the Imperial Religion to flourish then they wouldn't have turned Lorgar and would have kept him on the board.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Given what happened with Sindermann, anything's possible...
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Captyn_Bob wrote:
Not necessarily, the cult of the god emperor was around before the Ecclesiarchy


Exactly. She's St Peter - Fatidicus is Emperor Constantine I doubt they'd write him out.

It's not impossible she might also be moriana - one of the founding inquisitors with initially resurrectioninst tendencies

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
 
Forum Index » The Horus Heresy
Go to: