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I keep running into them and I'm becoming irked. Is the a unit or model (non-forgeworld) that can at least bring one down to half wounds in one round? It would have to be able to do 8 wounds vs T7 Sv 3+.

The reason for no FW is that I just don't want to have to order across the ocean and pay those outrageous prices.

What army are you using?

What army are you running?

The Shadowsword should be able to instantly delete one with little effort.

Don't forget you get -1 to Hit it too.

Dark Reapers work if you're Eldar.

Pummel it with Basilisks/Manticores if IG.

BA can use Captain Slamguinus.

Space Marines can put some hurt on it with a Sicarian or Dev squad with lascannons and re-roll access.

Two Neutronagers aren't awful for AdMech.

But yeah, I fight Fire Raptors alllll the time. Just saw an Adepticon list with 3 of them too. They're incredibly painful.

Well, since it appears that I'm a masochist, mono-GK. At this point I'm almost willing to add another detachment just because they exist.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well, since it appears that I'm a masochist, mono-GK. At this point I'm almost willing to add another detachment just because they exist.

Yeah good luck taking it on with GK. Twin-Assault Razorbacks or a Stormraven would be your best bet.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well, since it appears that I'm a masochist, mono-GK. At this point I'm almost willing to add another detachment just because they exist.

I would add a second detachment, GK are far too specialized to survive on their own competitively. I for one have added a secondary legion detachment to my World Eater army because a wholey CQC, none psychic army can't stand up to competitive armies, same thing goes for highly elite armies like GK: far too specialised to stand up against everything.

Nick is fighting 3 raptors and RG on stream with now with Poxwalkers. He's a little behind, because he lost first turn and the pox walkers were all shot off, but he smite spammed one raptor and a DP took another down by 10. Down two DPs now unfortunately.

Now it's down to objectives / board control and damage mitigation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nick is fighting 3 raptors and RG on stream with now with Poxwalkers. He's a little behind, because he lost first turn and the pox walkers were all shot off, but he smite spammed one raptor and a DP took another down by 10. Down two DPs now unfortunately.

Now it's down to objectives / board control and damage mitigation.

Who's Nick?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nick is fighting 3 raptors and RG on stream with now with Poxwalkers. He's a little behind, because he lost first turn and the pox walkers were all shot off, but he smite spammed one raptor and a DP took another down by 10. Down two DPs now unfortunately.

Now it's down to objectives / board control and damage mitigation.

Who's Nick?

The LVO winner

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nick is fighting 3 raptors and RG on stream with now with Poxwalkers. He's a little behind, because he lost first turn and the pox walkers were all shot off, but he smite spammed one raptor and a DP took another down by 10. Down two DPs now unfortunately.

Now it's down to objectives / board control and damage mitigation.

Who's Nick?

The LVO winner

And what's his stream?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nick is fighting 3 raptors and RG on stream with now with Poxwalkers. He's a little behind, because he lost first turn and the pox walkers were all shot off, but he smite spammed one raptor and a DP took another down by 10. Down two DPs now unfortunately.

Now it's down to objectives / board control and damage mitigation.

Who's Nick?

The LVO winner

And what's his stream?

https://www.facebook.com/The-Brown-Magic-143252259677237/videos/

I don't think you need to take it down. Why not control it with your GSC psyker and use it to shoot Guilliman to death??

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I don't think you need to take it down. Why not control it with your GSC psyker and use it to shoot Guilliman to death??

... Because he's playing Grey Knights?

You probably want to use GMDKs to bring them down I guess? At least those can't be shot off the board before they get to do something.

Good luck beating 3 Raptors + Bobby G if you're mono-GK, though.

To be fair it's only 2 Raptors w Mr G.. It's a shame that of all the models in the game it takes a unit that is almost double the Raptor's cost to be able to do 8+ wounds in a single round (the shadow sword).

GMDKs don't do much to a Raptor armed with a Hvy Psycannon and Gatling Psilencer they does a little better than 2 wounds per volley (assuming the GMDK moves to get into position).

The problem is that a lot of the bigger models depend on melee to do their heavy lifting and since the only flying monsters/vehicles are Xenos/chaos I don't see them as an answer for Imperial soup.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
To be fair it's only 2 Raptors w Mr G.. It's a shame that of all the models in the game it takes a unit that is almost double the Raptor's cost to be able to do 8+ wounds in a single round (the shadow sword).

GMDKs don't do much to a Raptor armed with a Hvy Psycannon and Gatling Psilencer they does a little better than 2 wounds per volley (assuming the GMDK moves to get into position).

The problem is that a lot of the bigger models depend on melee to do their heavy lifting and since the only flying monsters/vehicles are Xenos/chaos I don't see them as an answer for Imperial soup.

To be fair, the Shadowsword should do far more than 8 wounds. I think generally it should wipe it out. (6 shots, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 14 damage or so). It's also 404 points, so hardly "double the raptor's cost" (I'm fairly certain Fire Raptors are like 250 before wargear).

Maybe my math is off but the point remains that the shadow sword is about the only Imperial unit/model that can bring down a raptor in one turn (or even do 8 wounds) without having to engage in CQC.

volcano cannon standing still 4.5 shots hitting on 5 wounding on 2 no save ave dam per shot 7 = 4.5*.32*.84*7=8.47 wounds

Shadow Sword base 390+ weapons
Fire Raptor base 250 + weapons

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Maybe my math is off but the point remains that the shadow sword is about the only Imperial unit/model that can bring down a raptor in one turn (or even do 8 wounds) without having to engage in CQC.

volcano cannon standing still 4.5 shots hitting on 5 wounding on 2 no save ave dam per shot 7 = 4.5*.32*.84*7=8.47 wounds

Shadow Sword base 390+ weapons
Fire Raptor base 250 + weapons

Why 4.5 shots? It's 3d3, so presumably, 6? Since average on a d3 is 2? Edit: 1.5 is not the average on a d3. It's 2.

Also, 390+ weapons when the one weapon is a twin heavy bolter is vastly different than 250 + weapons when the weapons are 2 quad heavy bolters and a twin avenger cannon....

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Maybe my math is off but the point remains that the shadow sword is about the only Imperial unit/model that can bring down a raptor in one turn (or even do 8 wounds) without having to engage in CQC.

volcano cannon standing still 4.5 shots hitting on 5 wounding on 2 no save ave dam per shot 7 = 4.5*.32*.84*7=8.47 wounds

Shadow Sword base 390+ weapons
Fire Raptor base 250 + weapons

I think it's pretty reasonable that you need to spend double the cost of something to take it down in one turn - especially if it's not a direct counter. That doesn't preclude the fire raptor (or shadowsword) going up in points.

My mistake about the d3. I wasn't thinking about other weapons because loadouts can vary. I leave it to you to kit out a shadow sword properly (I have no experience with guard). I suppose I could try to figure out the Raptor's armament for a more exact ratio of points.

My general point is that except for the shadow sword there is nothing in the imperial arsenal that can do it in with one volley fire. You'd need considerably more than the Raptor's points to bring it down or at least the Raptor's points to bring it to its next level down (do 8 wounds). To me, that means that there is a fundamental flaw in the Raptor's assessed point value.

edit: Fire Raptor with Twin Avenger bolter, 2x Quad Hvy Bolters and, 2x twin Hellstrike missiles = 250+0+72+96 = 418 points

For pure GK your best bet would be Venerable Dread with twin-lascannon and missile. You can hide out of LOS and use Astral Aim to shoot at the Fire raptor. Two of those dreads should do a number on one raptor a turn.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My mistake about the d3. I wasn't thinking about other weapons because loadouts can vary. I leave it to you to kit out a shadow sword properly (I have no experience with guard). I suppose I could try to figure out the Raptor's armament for a more exact ratio of points.

My general point is that except for the shadow sword there is nothing in the imperial arsenal that can do it in with one volley fire. You'd need considerably more than the Raptor to bring it down or at least the Raptor's points to bring it to its next level down (do 8 wounds). To me, that means that there is a fundamental flaw in the Raptor's assessed point value.

That should be true of every unit though. It takes far more than that unit's points in firepower to bring it down. Hell, it takes like 3-4x the cost of a Rhino to kill it, with lascannons which are supposed to be its hard counter.

I already did the math for Twin Lascannons + Missile launcher (on my note pad) the average damage against a Raptor from 1 such Dread is less than 4 wounds per volley.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well, since it appears that I'm a masochist, mono-GK. At this point I'm almost willing to add another detachment just because they exist.

Hummm. Maybe ask your friend not to spam OP units against your very weak army.

Typically I bring 2 storm talons with my greyknights. Honestly no match for a fire raptor but if you go first you might get lucky.

Another option is to just ignore them and try to wipe his ground army. Which is actually doable if you can manage to stay locked in combat all game. You can also focus them down with GMNDK firepower - your army should consist of mostly GMNDK anyways.

The problem is that the Raptor has no problem bringing down any flyer, other than another Raptor, in 1 volley and thus making up its point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's been in local events where I come against this list. If I ran a lot of GMDKs I'd lose on points (we play ITC) so that's a no go.

His army as I remember it was 2 Raptors, Bobby G, 3 Custodes Captains on Bikes, 4 Mortars, a couple of IG officers and a couple of throw away IG troop blobs.

My army was Drago, GMDK, 4x 5 man strike squads (all storm bolters), 6 man Interceptor squad (falchions and bolters), 6 Paladins (falchions and bolters), Librarian in TDA, 1 Dread Twin LC+Heavy Flamer+CCW and a Storm Talon with Twin AC + Twin LC

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I already did the math for Twin Lascannons + Missile launcher (on my note pad) the average damage against a Raptor from 1 such Dread is less than 4 wounds per volley.

You're way too stuck in the math. Lascannons that hit and wound reliably go through and CP rerolls should be saved for damage rolls.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The problem is that the Raptor has no problem bringing down any flyer, other than another Raptor, in 1 volley and thus making up its point cost.

Wait what? I only have the Chaos Fire Raptor (not the Astartes book, just the Chaos one), but here's the math vs. a Valkyrie, assuming an optimum (and expensive) anti-tank loadout:

Avenger Cannon: 2 wounds ish (2.22)
Two twin lascannons: 4 wounds ish (3.89)
Two Reaper Batteries: 1.5 wounds on the nose.

That's a total of about seven or eight wounds, from a 350 point unit shooting at a 142 point unit...

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The problem is that the Raptor has no problem bringing down any flyer, other than another Raptor, in 1 volley and thus making up its point cost.

See, here you're not applying the math, because on average it doesn't unless you have BobbyG.

So the problem is more the combination than fire raptors themselves.

BobbyG plus big guns = death