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I just had a thought and figured id throw it out here.

Pretty much all ork slug thrower guns should be assault 2 with a special rule that doubles their shots at half range (making them effectively rapid fire weapons also).

This would make shootas 18" assault 2 with 4 shots at 9". With their bs 5+ and taking a -1 to hit if they advance it would very acurately represent the orks penchent for just hurling shots everywhere while charging forward, make them a bit better with their shooting from volume of fire, and not actually be op in any capacity.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure of the fluff behind 'Rapid Fire' but I've always considered that technology of the gun allows the bearer to 'reacquire' target faster at closer distances, suggesting that they are aiming. I would not expect orkz to be aiming, I would expect they are firing every available shot just in the general direction of what they are running at. With that, I wouldn't think it would fit the theme of an ork army to have something resembling rapid fire.

You could probably just give all ork gunz with 6 or less strength an extra shot, and it might not be OP while still being orky.

Strange. I always imagined rapid fire guns to be rapid fire and shoot a lot of bullets. The extra shots at 1/2 range equating to a rapid fire guns general inaccuracy meaning its impossible for those extra shots from the burst of shots hitting at max range but having a chance to hit at half range.

 Lance845 wrote:
Strange. I always imagined rapid fire guns to be rapid fire and shoot a lot of bullets. The extra shots at 1/2 range equating to a rapid fire guns general inaccuracy meaning its impossible for those extra shots from the burst of shots hitting at max range but having a chance to hit at half range.

Or that. Burst fire mode all day but the spread is too far outside of rapid fire range, I could think of it like that.

Easiest way would be to give them two profiles, Assault 2 24" and Assault 4 12"

And if they don't make it a universal rule, at least make it an ork rule that a 6 is always a hit.

Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Easiest way would be to give them two profiles, Assault 2 24" and Assault 4 12"

And if they don't make it a universal rule, at least make it an ork rule that a 6 is always a hit.

I dunno. Easiest to me is to give it the special rule. Nids already have assault pistols in the form of Fleshhooks. They are assault 2 weapons with a special rule that allows them to function like pistols when your within 1" of an enemy model.

This would just be making Shootas and other ork weapons into assault rapid fire guns in the same way.

warpedpig wrote:
Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

Being easier to aim doesn't necessarily equate to firing more shots.

Maybe orks universally or as clan trait can get a rule that gives them a +1 to hit at half-range or at X" within enemy unit. This could help depict the old "dakka dakka" rule that's been discussed prior to the release of the stratagem "dakka dakka dakka".

I mean, there's so much bullet flying at point blank range - SOMETHING has to hit, right?

Alternatively, you can provide them reroll 1's for shooting within 6" of enemy unit like the Farsight Enclave sept rule.

warpedpig wrote:
Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

Four-shot wraith cannons?!

I wouldn't mind orks getting a little extra firepower up close. Seems fluffy without being OP.

They are Orks. Their shooting is supposed to be mostly ineffective. That being said when they do actually hit. The damage should be decent since Orks like big loud stupid guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

Being easier to aim doesn't necessarily equate to firing more shots.

Maybe orks universally or as clan trait can get a rule that gives them a +1 to hit at half-range or at X" within enemy unit. This could help depict the old "dakka dakka" rule that's been discussed prior to the release of the stratagem "dakka dakka dakka".

I mean, there's so much bullet flying at point blank range - SOMETHING has to hit, right?

Alternatively, you can provide them reroll 1's for shooting within 6" of enemy unit like the Farsight Enclave sept rule.

No you are kinda wrong. I’ve trained people to shoot guns in real life and some people are so bad they can miss a target ten feet away. Not even kidding

warpedpig wrote:
They are Orks. Their shooting is supposed to be mostly ineffective. That being said when they do actually hit. The damage should be decent since Orks like big loud stupid guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

Being easier to aim doesn't necessarily equate to firing more shots.

Maybe orks universally or as clan trait can get a rule that gives them a +1 to hit at half-range or at X" within enemy unit. This could help depict the old "dakka dakka" rule that's been discussed prior to the release of the stratagem "dakka dakka dakka".

I mean, there's so much bullet flying at point blank range - SOMETHING has to hit, right?

Alternatively, you can provide them reroll 1's for shooting within 6" of enemy unit like the Farsight Enclave sept rule.

No you are kinda wrong. I’ve trained people to shoot guns in real life and some people are so bad they can miss a target ten feet away. Not even kidding

Orkz should fire a metric FETH LOAD of shots, that way our BS of 5+ doens't really matter, we are literally the faction that invented the word DAKKA ffs.

As for rerolling 1s, no. Feth that. We have a useless strategy that lets us get 1 free shot whenever we roll a 6, this equates to 1/18th more hits. That is a wicked slow mechanic to give us a MINOR buff.

Also, I have dealt with people learning to shoot for the first time in there lives and people who spent their entire lives shooting. Both sets of people and everyone in between we managed to teach to shoot to the minimum standard required in 2 weeks, that minimum standard is higher by far then the US Army. So, a faction that spends their entire lives shooting things shouldn't have that much of a problem hitting 1/2 the time or 1/3rd the time with more shots if a plebeian guardsman can do it.

SemperMortis wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
They are Orks. Their shooting is supposed to be mostly ineffective. That being said when they do actually hit. The damage should be decent since Orks like big loud stupid guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Every weapon should have rapid fire rule because if you’re at close range it’s much easier to make aimed shots that at long range. Duh. So any weapon should benefit from half range rapid fire rule. And at 1/4 range it should be 4x the shots

Being easier to aim doesn't necessarily equate to firing more shots.

Maybe orks universally or as clan trait can get a rule that gives them a +1 to hit at half-range or at X" within enemy unit. This could help depict the old "dakka dakka" rule that's been discussed prior to the release of the stratagem "dakka dakka dakka".

I mean, there's so much bullet flying at point blank range - SOMETHING has to hit, right?

Alternatively, you can provide them reroll 1's for shooting within 6" of enemy unit like the Farsight Enclave sept rule.

No you are kinda wrong. I’ve trained people to shoot guns in real life and some people are so bad they can miss a target ten feet away. Not even kidding

Orkz should fire a metric FETH LOAD of shots, that way our BS of 5+ doens't really matter, we are literally the faction that invented the word DAKKA ffs.

As for rerolling 1s, no. Feth that. We have a useless strategy that lets us get 1 free shot whenever we roll a 6, this equates to 1/18th more hits. That is a wicked slow mechanic to give us a MINOR buff.

Also, I have dealt with people learning to shoot for the first time in there lives and people who spent their entire lives shooting. Both sets of people and everyone in between we managed to teach to shoot to the minimum standard required in 2 weeks, that minimum standard is higher by far then the US Army. So, a faction that spends their entire lives shooting things shouldn't have that much of a problem hitting 1/2 the time or 1/3rd the time with more shots if a plebeian guardsman can do it.

How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

 Lance845 wrote:


How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

A 5+ BS Is in fact terrible in this edition, because we have this thing called hit modifiers. I was literally unable to shoot entire units in my last game because my opponent had -2 to hit on about half his army. Now that can be fixed with a rule saying orkz aren't affected by hit modifiers or that we always hit on a 6, but if we hit on 6s we just cut our Dakka IN HALF! Add to that the fact that our gunz literally have less shots then their counter parts and you begin to see the problem. a wonderful example of this would be the Stormbolter/Kustom Shoota comparison, a stormbolter is Range 24 Rapid fire 2, a Kustom Shoota is Assault 4 ranged 18, so right off the bat they are about equal, I would give a slight edge to the Stormbolter for a few reasons, 1 being its on a 3+ to hit platform so those 2 shots at 24 = 1.32 hits where as the Kustom Shoota can't shoot until its 6' closer and when it does it is...1.33 hits at 18, move 6 inches closer and now that stormbolter doubles its effectiveness and is 2.6 and the Kustom is still 1.33. But here is the best part, The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade, the Kustom Shoota is a 4pt upgrade. So our weapons are worse, they are more expensive and our accuracy is less. That sums up ork shooting almost across the board. We need a MAJOR fix to ork gunz and step 1 would be to double almost every gunz shot output.

Keep in mind, even if you did double the shot output it still wouldn't make some weapons worth taking at their current prices. Shokk Attack gunz and any Blast weapon orkz have that isn't fired by grotz.

For the time being adopt house rules like that. Ask your buddies. If they don’t agree then find some other people who will

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

A 5+ BS Is in fact terrible in this edition, because we have this thing called hit modifiers. I was literally unable to shoot entire units in my last game because my opponent had -2 to hit on about half his army. Now that can be fixed with a rule saying orkz aren't affected by hit modifiers or that we always hit on a 6, but if we hit on 6s we just cut our Dakka IN HALF! Add to that the fact that our gunz literally have less shots then their counter parts and you begin to see the problem. a wonderful example of this would be the Stormbolter/Kustom Shoota comparison, a stormbolter is Range 24 Rapid fire 2, a Kustom Shoota is Assault 4 ranged 18, so right off the bat they are about equal, I would give a slight edge to the Stormbolter for a few reasons, 1 being its on a 3+ to hit platform so those 2 shots at 24 = 1.32 hits where as the Kustom Shoota can't shoot until its 6' closer and when it does it is...1.33 hits at 18, move 6 inches closer and now that stormbolter doubles its effectiveness and is 2.6 and the Kustom is still 1.33. But here is the best part, The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade, the Kustom Shoota is a 4pt upgrade. So our weapons are worse, they are more expensive and our accuracy is less. That sums up ork shooting almost across the board. We need a MAJOR fix to ork gunz and step 1 would be to double almost every gunz shot output.

Keep in mind, even if you did double the shot output it still wouldn't make some weapons worth taking at their current prices. Shokk Attack gunz and any Blast weapon orkz have that isn't fired by grotz.

Look I'm all for helping Orks in some context here, but complaining about the prices of guns in the Index compared to guns in Codices makes stupid little sense. The Hurricane Bolter is how many points again? How many platforms can actually take them?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

A 5+ BS Is in fact terrible in this edition, because we have this thing called hit modifiers. I was literally unable to shoot entire units in my last game because my opponent had -2 to hit on about half his army. Now that can be fixed with a rule saying orkz aren't affected by hit modifiers or that we always hit on a 6, but if we hit on 6s we just cut our Dakka IN HALF! Add to that the fact that our gunz literally have less shots then their counter parts and you begin to see the problem. a wonderful example of this would be the Stormbolter/Kustom Shoota comparison, a stormbolter is Range 24 Rapid fire 2, a Kustom Shoota is Assault 4 ranged 18, so right off the bat they are about equal, I would give a slight edge to the Stormbolter for a few reasons, 1 being its on a 3+ to hit platform so those 2 shots at 24 = 1.32 hits where as the Kustom Shoota can't shoot until its 6' closer and when it does it is...1.33 hits at 18, move 6 inches closer and now that stormbolter doubles its effectiveness and is 2.6 and the Kustom is still 1.33. But here is the best part, The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade, the Kustom Shoota is a 4pt upgrade. So our weapons are worse, they are more expensive and our accuracy is less. That sums up ork shooting almost across the board. We need a MAJOR fix to ork gunz and step 1 would be to double almost every gunz shot output.

Keep in mind, even if you did double the shot output it still wouldn't make some weapons worth taking at their current prices. Shokk Attack gunz and any Blast weapon orkz have that isn't fired by grotz.

Look I'm all for helping Orks in some context here, but complaining about the prices of guns in the Index compared to guns in Codices makes stupid little sense. The Hurricane Bolter is how many points again? How many platforms can actually take them?

The Stormbolters price didn't change from index to codex. Unless your argument is that the Kustom Shoota is going to drop to 1pt for the upgrade I don't see how my point isn't valid. and who can take a stormbolter? Just about everyone I don't really see GW giving the Kustom shoota a 75% pts decrease do you?

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

A 5+ BS Is in fact terrible in this edition, because we have this thing called hit modifiers. I was literally unable to shoot entire units in my last game because my opponent had -2 to hit on about half his army. Now that can be fixed with a rule saying orkz aren't affected by hit modifiers or that we always hit on a 6, but if we hit on 6s we just cut our Dakka IN HALF! Add to that the fact that our gunz literally have less shots then their counter parts and you begin to see the problem. a wonderful example of this would be the Stormbolter/Kustom Shoota comparison, a stormbolter is Range 24 Rapid fire 2, a Kustom Shoota is Assault 4 ranged 18, so right off the bat they are about equal, I would give a slight edge to the Stormbolter for a few reasons, 1 being its on a 3+ to hit platform so those 2 shots at 24 = 1.32 hits where as the Kustom Shoota can't shoot until its 6' closer and when it does it is...1.33 hits at 18, move 6 inches closer and now that stormbolter doubles its effectiveness and is 2.6 and the Kustom is still 1.33. But here is the best part, The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade, the Kustom Shoota is a 4pt upgrade. So our weapons are worse, they are more expensive and our accuracy is less. That sums up ork shooting almost across the board. We need a MAJOR fix to ork gunz and step 1 would be to double almost every gunz shot output.

Keep in mind, even if you did double the shot output it still wouldn't make some weapons worth taking at their current prices. Shokk Attack gunz and any Blast weapon orkz have that isn't fired by grotz.

Look I'm all for helping Orks in some context here, but complaining about the prices of guns in the Index compared to guns in Codices makes stupid little sense. The Hurricane Bolter is how many points again? How many platforms can actually take them?

The Stormbolters price didn't change from index to codex. Unless your argument is that the Kustom Shoota is going to drop to 1pt for the upgrade I don't see how my point isn't valid. and who can take a stormbolter? Just about everyone I don't really see GW giving the Kustom shoota a 75% pts decrease do you?

I used the Hurricane Bolter as an example for a reason.

That said, if every model that COULD take a Kustom Shoota was really cheap in the first place, it evens out. I'm not saying they couldn't be cheaper, I'm saying you can't compare the gun prices in different Codices. Just look at what's fair in an external and internal balance context instead of wondering why Hurricane Bolters are 10 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


How you teach someone to shoot is irrelevant. Orks spray and pray. Kind of without the praying. They are just happy to have bullets flying around.

A 5+ BS isn't the worst if supplemented with a decent number of shots so it balances out with other factions. A standard troop having a free rapid fire 2 (4 at half range) gun should put them roughly on par with everyone else mechanically.

A 5+ BS Is in fact terrible in this edition, because we have this thing called hit modifiers. I was literally unable to shoot entire units in my last game because my opponent had -2 to hit on about half his army. Now that can be fixed with a rule saying orkz aren't affected by hit modifiers or that we always hit on a 6, but if we hit on 6s we just cut our Dakka IN HALF! Add to that the fact that our gunz literally have less shots then their counter parts and you begin to see the problem. a wonderful example of this would be the Stormbolter/Kustom Shoota comparison, a stormbolter is Range 24 Rapid fire 2, a Kustom Shoota is Assault 4 ranged 18, so right off the bat they are about equal, I would give a slight edge to the Stormbolter for a few reasons, 1 being its on a 3+ to hit platform so those 2 shots at 24 = 1.32 hits where as the Kustom Shoota can't shoot until its 6' closer and when it does it is...1.33 hits at 18, move 6 inches closer and now that stormbolter doubles its effectiveness and is 2.6 and the Kustom is still 1.33. But here is the best part, The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade, the Kustom Shoota is a 4pt upgrade. So our weapons are worse, they are more expensive and our accuracy is less. That sums up ork shooting almost across the board. We need a MAJOR fix to ork gunz and step 1 would be to double almost every gunz shot output.

Keep in mind, even if you did double the shot output it still wouldn't make some weapons worth taking at their current prices. Shokk Attack gunz and any Blast weapon orkz have that isn't fired by grotz.

Look I'm all for helping Orks in some context here, but complaining about the prices of guns in the Index compared to guns in Codices makes stupid little sense. The Hurricane Bolter is how many points again? How many platforms can actually take them?

The Stormbolters price didn't change from index to codex. Unless your argument is that the Kustom Shoota is going to drop to 1pt for the upgrade I don't see how my point isn't valid. and who can take a stormbolter? Just about everyone I don't really see GW giving the Kustom shoota a 75% pts decrease do you?

I used the Hurricane Bolter as an example for a reason.

That said, if every model that COULD take a Kustom Shoota was really cheap in the first place, it evens out. I'm not saying they couldn't be cheaper, I'm saying you can't compare the gun prices in different Codices. Just look at what's fair in an external and internal balance context instead of wondering why Hurricane Bolters are 10 points.

I compared that as well. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY takes a Kustom shoota unless they have a handful of leftover points. Why spend 4pts for 4 S4 shots when you can get a FREE shoota upgrade on a nob that is 2 shots at S4. So internally its a terrible choice, externally its even worse. It should be at most a 1pt upgrade, but since it isn't nobody takes it.

I agree, people bring a single kustom shoota in the army only if there are 4-5 points left and nothing to cut. There's basically nothing that costs 4-5 points or less in the orks index: the wrecking ball, grots orderlies, oilers or ammo runts, kustom shootas and what else?

Im kinda leaning on the "orks suffer no modifiers to hit" line of work for their shooting.

Their shooting is poor compared to most armies, so getting them penalized heavily with modifiers just makes shooting for them an ignore more than anything.

If they didn't have guns, they would basically be a no invulnurable army of my khorne daemons without power weapons as standard.

Orks at least need to be given a bone in terms of shooting. Getting no modifiers (Good or bad) on something that is the equivalent of shooting with your eyes closed is ok in my book

Bring back the '7+ to hit' rule from 2nd ed?

What do you guys think of giving the shooting units a rule similar to green tide? If you have 10+ lootas et al, you get +1 to hit.

Or, apply the DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA ability from the Dakka jet to give a +1 to hit rolls if all models in a unit shoot the same target.

Ork-en Man wrote:
What do you guys think of giving the shooting units a rule similar to green tide? If you have 10+ lootas et al, you get +1 to hit.

Or, apply the DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA ability from the Dakka jet to give a +1 to hit rolls if all models in a unit shoot the same target.

I would combine the two as GW clearly want orks to be the hord army. If you have a unit of 20 boys with shoots and they all shoot at the same unit they get +1 to hit.

What the game needs is a suppression mechanic of some sort - something where its shots fired, not hits scored that matters.

maybe fire three times as many shots as the target unit has and regardless of outcome they are "suppressed" until the end of your turn - perhaps preventing overwatch, or providing say +2" to the charge distance of anything charging a suppressed unit

 Kcalehc wrote:
Bring back the '7+ to hit' rule from 2nd ed?

Not being able to shoot at all is not the biggest problem. A single -1 to hit cuts the efficiency of every shooting unit in half. This means the Allaitoc or Ravenguard army traits basically removes half your shooting before the game starts. Imagine rolling a d6 for every model in a space marine/guard army and on a 4+ it dies before the game starts. That's how bad hit modifiers are for us.

The good solution for the game would be to remove the army-wide -1 to hit and replace it with "stealthy"-traits like tyranids or guard got. Single buffs, relics, one-use abilities and stratagems are supposed to be good. Even fliers wouldn't be that much of a problem if your shooting was semi-decent again. In sixth I just blew fliers out of the sky with lootas with just volume of fire alone.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Bring back the '7+ to hit' rule from 2nd ed?

Not being able to shoot at all is not the biggest problem. A single -1 to hit cuts the efficiency of every shooting unit in half. This means the Allaitoc or Ravenguard army traits basically removes half your shooting before the game starts. Imagine rolling a d6 for every model in a space marine/guard army and on a 4+ it dies before the game starts. That's how bad hit modifiers are for us.

The good solution for the game would be to remove the army-wide -1 to hit and replace it with "stealthy"-traits like tyranids or guard got. Single buffs, relics, one-use abilities and stratagems are supposed to be good. Even fliers wouldn't be that much of a problem if your shooting was semi-decent again. In sixth I just blew fliers out of the sky with lootas with just volume of fire alone.

I like the proposed rule that orkz IGNORE negative hit modifiers.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Bring back the '7+ to hit' rule from 2nd ed?

Not being able to shoot at all is not the biggest problem. A single -1 to hit cuts the efficiency of every shooting unit in half. This means the Allaitoc or Ravenguard army traits basically removes half your shooting before the game starts. Imagine rolling a d6 for every model in a space marine/guard army and on a 4+ it dies before the game starts. That's how bad hit modifiers are for us.

The good solution for the game would be to remove the army-wide -1 to hit and replace it with "stealthy"-traits like tyranids or guard got. Single buffs, relics, one-use abilities and stratagems are supposed to be good. Even fliers wouldn't be that much of a problem if your shooting was semi-decent again. In sixth I just blew fliers out of the sky with lootas with just volume of fire alone.

Saying the firepower is cut in half is making it sound more dramatic than the actual math shows. You're more selling an idea than anything.

Orks always Hit On 6+. Bam, done.

How is going from BS5+ to BS6+ not cutting shooting in half?

 Jidmah wrote:
How is going from BS5+ to BS6+ not cutting shooting in half?

It's cutting the shooting in half, but it's ignoring how little non-Grots were hitting in the first place. You're going from 33% to 16.5%. Based on how cheap the models are going to be, that's not really a big deal. Even better BS armies didn't complain about snap-fire against Fliers, which is why I see this as more an entitlement thread than anything.

Wat.

Losing half of your shooting is loosing half your shooting, no matter how many models are affected. You pay for the number of hits your weapon, not the number of shots.

If both orks and space marines pay 200 points for 40 shoota/bolter hits, -1 to hit makes that 200 points for 20 hits for orks and 200 points 30 hits for marines.