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Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

OK, so, initially I was planning to pretty much ignore the Legion rules based on my dislike of FFG's business model, but to be fair to them the whole "upgrades only with sets of models you don't want" thing appears to have been toned down significantly relative to X-Wing, and on reviewing the rules they seem like they could be good fun, and for a wee brief moment I thought this might be one of those nigh-mythical games where the rules are actually tight and well written to everyone's benefit so fluff bunnies and cheesemongers could play together without issue - then I got a look at the FFG version of "TFG" on facebook and I have a sudden urge to back away slowly while maintaining eye contact

Using anything other than the plain default FFG bases or converting your models such that their height changes is, apparently, bad sportsmanship. Any deviation from "official", even by fractions of a mm, is grounds for burning at the stake. Rulers and tape measures are verboten, only official measuring tools must be permitted. Exhortations that organised play boards should be limited only to perfectly flat mats with exactly 25% terrain which itself should have limited if any variation in height(usable height I mean, ie verticality of play surface).

Now, if that kind of hideous pedantry is confined only to FFG's official events, fine, whatever, it sucks that normal people won't be able to engage with organised play but that's life, but my issue is there tends to be some "bleedthrough" from the tournament scene into regular play - points values, netlists etc - and I'm wondering from folk who've been into FFG's games previously how extensive that is and is likely to be for Legion? I don't want to go to the bother of making sure the units I end up making work within the Legion rules if I'm going to show up at a store for a game and have some sneering berk chuck a hissy because I converted a Gand(which are typically shorter than humans) recon specialist for one of my Rebel squads, or because I use bases that look good to my eye instead of the bizarre 5mm-high miniature-plinths FFG supply with the game(seriously, what is it with game companies and daft proprietary bases?), and "it's not official".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 11:27:37


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







The few people I've seen like that about Legion typically aren't the kinds who have come across from X Wing and Armada and more the group of disgruntled players who've come across from other tabletop games like 40k. They're also by far going to be the minority.

As it stands, well it does as always depend on your local community. Around here in my parts with X Wing and Armada both the casual and competitive players get along well.
While I can't speak much for Armada because I don't play it myself, for X Wing at least 3rd party measuring tools, bomb tokens and the like are 100% ok outside of official events, which are a bit more limited (due to FFG's official rules). Even there though, 3rd party measure tools are typically allowed as long as they're known to be the correct size and shape.

For X Wing FFG does limit what you can do with your models for official tournament play with no conversions or 3rd party models allowed. No one knows how that will translate to Legion yet, though I expect there will be restrictions along a similar vein.

At unofficial event it tends to be a lot more casual, and no one minds too much if you're using cool looking 3rd part asteroids and bomb tokens, or if you're rocking a sweet conversion (within reason of course).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 11:48:55


 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

If it helps, I went to the Runewars North American Championship this past year and there were unpainted armies as well as a few conversions.

To mirror the comments above, this isn't an FFG player base attitude. It's a 40k, hyper-competitive type of mentality. I would keep in mind that VERY few events are actually run by FFG. "Official" Store Championships are run and administered by the stores involved. Same with Regionals. It's not until you get to the Nationals level that FFG is involved. I've played at dozens of different venues for X-Wing, Armada and Runewars. I have yet to run into a venue that would have cared about small conversions here and there.

Given that Legion's vehicle bases are pretty unique, I could see issues with basic movement mechanics if you change them to a different, 3rd party base. You can't really slot the movement tool into the base if there is no slot. I think there would be less issue with the Infantry. Legion comes with 27mm bases. At most, I'd think you could use 3rd party 25mm bases if your local community approves. I'd stay away from 32 and 40mm bases.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





There are some impressive caricatures on the internet. Locally I've seen a lot of people new to hobby wargaming playing Legion and its largely been an opportunity to define what kind of culture the game has from the ground up. I've been using my tape, cheering on conversions, doing whatever.

The game's new; there's a lot to learn. There are plenty of rules to get wrong but we live in an age where answers can be found and thankfully its a game with few problem interactions currently. There's always TFG, but they can be reasonable or they can go home. Thus far, that attitude seems largely confined to the internet.

I would be slightly cautious of doing too much with the bases though. Troopers probably don't really matter, but the vehicle bases are certainly as unique as they come and are pretty key to gameplay.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 14:24:35


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





Spoiler:
 Yodhrin wrote:
OK, so, initially I was planning to pretty much ignore the Legion rules based on my dislike of FFG's business model, but to be fair to them the whole "upgrades only with sets of models you don't want" thing appears to have been toned down significantly relative to X-Wing, and on reviewing the rules they seem like they could be good fun, and for a wee brief moment I thought this might be one of those nigh-mythical games where the rules are actually tight and well written to everyone's benefit so fluff bunnies and cheesemongers could play together without issue - then I got a look at the FFG version of "TFG" on facebook and I have a sudden urge to back away slowly while maintaining eye contact

Using anything other than the plain default FFG bases or converting your models such that their height changes is, apparently, bad sportsmanship. Any deviation from "official", even by fractions of a mm, is grounds for burning at the stake. Rulers and tape measures are verboten, only official measuring tools must be permitted. Exhortations that organised play boards should be limited only to perfectly flat mats with exactly 25% terrain which itself should have limited if any variation in height(usable height I mean, ie verticality of play surface).

Now, if that kind of hideous pedantry is confined only to FFG's official events, fine, whatever, it sucks that normal people won't be able to engage with organised play but that's life, but my issue is there tends to be some "bleedthrough" from the tournament scene into regular play - points values, netlists etc - and I'm wondering from folk who've been into FFG's games previously how extensive that is and is likely to be for Legion? I don't want to go to the bother of making sure the units I end up making work within the Legion rules if I'm going to show up at a store for a game and have some sneering berk chuck a hissy because I converted a Gand(which are typically shorter than humans) recon specialist for one of my Rebel squads, or because I use bases that look good to my eye instead of the bizarre 5mm-high miniature-plinths FFG supply with the game(seriously, what is it with game companies and daft proprietary bases?), and "it's not official".


So a few things:

1) There is always bleedthrough from tournaments scenes to casual metas. Thats because Tournament players don't stop playing just because its a weeknight - they play in the casual group as well. Some game systems like WMH embrace this, provided a tournament style rules system with a ton of fluff on top. FFG's Xwing game is similar - it has an incredibly tight ruleset but makes certain 90% of the ships can be played as generic copies of your own creation or as well known heros that our inner child loves.

2) The strict rules 'no conversions' is a FFG thing thats crossed over from XWing. XWing generally tolerated repainting, but a lot of the ships were already so similar to each other that a small conversion could fool people into thinking a new tie fighter or rebel ship had been released. A pity given the oft-quoted line about corrielian freighters. I haven't played legion but I have assembled the models and I suspect that this is an early attitude that will fall by the wayside quickly. The T-47 I just assembled , for example, gives you bits to modify the wing flaps in the box. Generally the no conversion attitude dies pretty quickly after new players point out that the box includes instructions for at least small conversions. Unless your local TO is a TFG you should be fine.

3) I'm expecting their to shortly be a ton of modified models on the table soon. Not only have several sites started offering mod parts (I love the Mon Cal heads for rebel troopers), but we are already seeing battle reports in which people have blatantly rebased Star Wars minis from one of the several failed Star Wars skirimish games.

4) Netlists happen. Blame the Internet. Net Lists aren't by themselves a problem as long as the game is fairly balanced (no game is perfectly balanced). FFG's first wave of Xwing was pretty poor on balance but they've had a *decent* track record since. Hopefully Legions will build upon the lessons they've learned.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


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Made in ca
Huge Hierodule






Outflanking

Cards, if this is like X-wing/Armada, don't really matter outside of competitive events as you don't make it a "wait, what is that equipped with again?" fest for you opponent.

Custom tokens are almost encouraged, since they cut down on confusion a lot.

Bases, rulers and templates are a bit trickier, since they actually affect gameplay.

Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?

A: A Maniraptor 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Bases, rulers and templates are a bit trickier, since they actually affect gameplay.


That's the thing though - do they? So much that it needs to be made an issue of? All of the "bands" of movement amount to is "move up to X inches" and for Infantry the tools are pointless since you can move in any direction with any number of turns. People have brought up vehicles, but the idea you need special articulated tools to handle "move half of X inches, make up to a 90 degree turn, then move up to the remaining half of X inches" is bizarre to me - folk have been managing to play Battlefleet Gothic for twenty years with bog-standard rulers despite it being a more complex version of the same concept in terms of ship movement(how much you can turn varies based on ship or special conditions, and you can make your turn at any point along your movement rather than at exactly the halfway mark). And the only actual reason I've seen people give for insisting on the "official" bases is that the movement tools are designed to work with them, which rather falls apart when you realise the tools are completely unnecessary for the game to function.

As far as I can tell all the actual rules require to work is that whatever base you mount vehicles on have quadrants marked on them somehow, and you can do that with a protractor to put a dab of paint on the rims. Dice aside, all the special stuff in the box is pretty much just FFG ensuring the product looks like an FFG game, none of it makes any difference on the table once you understand the numbers under the layer of obfuscation they've put over "inches and up-to-90 degree turns".

And so far as the people arguing the other side of the discussion being 40K types, that's not my experience in the situations that led to me posting this thread, quite the reverse, it's folk like myself who're coming to "competitive" systems from "normal" wargames like 40K where rebasing for rule of cool, converting, using generic movement tools etc are commonplace who're struggling with the hyper-official attitude emanating from a wee handful of folks who seem very much focused on said "competitive" systems like X-Wing and Guild Ball. FFG might not run many events themselves directly, but if they put out an Organised Play pack that pushes the X-Wing style competition-focused attitude - use only official bases & movement tools, use only official Legion models as-sold, use only flat mats, use only this much terrain with only this many levels etc etc - then realistically most events are going to adopt that standard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 17:07:24


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You can definitely come up with a way to move the vehicles without the widgets but I think that’s the point where you’re just being obstinate without really gaining anything in the process.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

upgrades only with sets of models you don't want" thing appears to have been toned down significantly relative to X-Wing,

It wasn't that prominent at Wave 1 of X Wing either...

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 LunarSol wrote:
You can definitely come up with a way to move the vehicles without the widgets but I think that’s the point where you’re just being obstinate without really gaining anything in the process.


Nonsense, if anything the reverse is true - there's no need to "come up with" ways to do anything, nothing Legion is doing in terms of the actual movement rules is new, it's the widgets that don't add anything to the process as far as I can see. As for what's gained - I can use the bases I want to use, I don't have to faff about with the awkward process they detail using the widget when you make a partial move with a vehicle, and I have one less thing I have to remember to cart around with me.

My point is that the only initially-logical argument for using the official bases - they fit exactly with the movement widgets - is rather undermined by the fact that there's no actual need to use the movement widgets. But suggest that to some folk and they react like you're suggesting they should use their favoured holy book as toilet paper, or insisting you can make fried eggs in a washing machine.

 Azreal13 wrote:
upgrades only with sets of models you don't want" thing appears to have been toned down significantly relative to X-Wing,

It wasn't that prominent at Wave 1 of X Wing either...


I don't doubt that there will eventually be some "must have" cards in expansions, but as it stands they're not being as egregious about it - if you buy the AT-ST, you get the same cards as you do in the T-47, and similarly if you get the Stormtrooper expansion it has the same cards as the Rebel Troopers expansion, so there's no attempt as yet to get you to buy random units purely for the cards that come with them. I think that's probably the best version of the FFG business model we can hope for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 21:01:47


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





yep Wave 2 is where it started in X-Wing with PTL and Fel

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







Using 3rd party movement tools that match the official ones is one thing, not using them at all is a whole different matter. It won't fly in a tournament at all, and likely won't fly in a pick up game either. If you have a close group of friends that are ok with it and you don't plan to play against anyone else then go for it, but that'd be going a step too far for most people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/30 23:28:49


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Yodhrin wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
You can definitely come up with a way to move the vehicles without the widgets but I think that’s the point where you’re just being obstinate without really gaining anything in the process.


Nonsense, if anything the reverse is true - there's no need to "come up with" ways to do anything, nothing Legion is doing in terms of the actual movement rules is new, it's the widgets that don't add anything to the process as far as I can see. As for what's gained - I can use the bases I want to use, I don't have to faff about with the awkward process they detail using the widget when you make a partial move with a vehicle, and I have one less thing I have to remember to cart around with me.

My point is that the only initially-logical argument for using the official bases - they fit exactly with the movement widgets - is rather undermined by the fact that there's no actual need to use the movement widgets. But suggest that to some folk and they react like you're suggesting they should use their favoured holy book as toilet paper, or insisting you can make fried eggs in a washing machine.


The problem with not using the movement widgets is that they measure front to back on the bases so base size complicates things. Speeder bikes add half an inch and the AT-ST is 2" faster than its speed stat simply because of the size of its base. The 2" gaps where you can't turn also complicate things significantly. I'm not saying it can't be done, nor am I saying it was necessary for FFG to use widgets as their method of measurement, I'm just saying that the widgets do their job well on vehicles, whose rules don't translate nearly as cleanly without a lot of caveats that the widgets largely simplify.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






No, measuring with your own custom system is not going to be ok, and why should it be? You're going to buy the starter set and get the official tools, and by the time you've finished explaining your personal system and demonstrated that it does in fact match up 100% with the FFG tools you could have just used the official tools and been done with it.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

See, this nonsense is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not "my own custom system", it's just how people move sodding wargames models and have done for decades. FFG have managed to convince a bunch of people that they've designed an actual "system", when all they've done is obfuscate the actual inches and degrees with named bands and designed tools to match the bands.

Those tools are no more necessary to play the game than the plastic whippy-sticks you get in GW starter boxes are.

Yeah, looks like Legion is going to be a TFG game then, I'll pass and go back to my plan A of using the models for systems that don't pretend fractions of a millimetre variances are world-shattering problems.


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Yodhrin wrote:
See, this nonsense is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not "my own custom system", it's just how people move sodding wargames models and have done for decades.


That's fine, if you are playing one of those games. But that's not how Legion does it, and your system is a custom one when applied to a game that uses a different measuring system. The fact that lots of people have moved wargames models for decades using a hex grid system doesn't make it any less of a custom system if you try to use it to play 40k.

Those tools are no more necessary to play the game than the plastic whippy-sticks you get in GW starter boxes are.


Again, yes, you can duplicate Legion's measurements 100% exactly with careful use of other tools. But what is the point? By the time you've demonstrated that your alternate tool is getting the correct result you could have just used the standard tool and moved on to the next part of the game. It's a lot of effort spent for nothing more than sheer stubborn refusal to accept how FFG does it.

Yeah, looks like Legion is going to be a TFG game then, I'll pass and go back to my plan A of using the models for systems that don't pretend fractions of a millimetre variances are world-shattering problems.


I see, so now expecting correct measurements is a "TFG game"? Let me guess, you're one of those people who conveniently always finds that the fractions of a millimeter end up in their favor?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Well, I know that the online group of people playing Armada is pretty awesome and friendly, at least over on the FFG forums. Miles above the X-Wing crew. Lot's of people showing off their Shapeways models, tactics threads, etc.

It's a shame if the commonly-held 40k player caricature infects Legion with their 'always play like the fate of a tournament's at stake' attitude.

I don't know enough about Legion past the demos I played at Gencon, but using proper measuring tools (third party ones are just fine) and bases are pretty strict in my games. After that? If you can keep things clear enough to avoid confusion, go and have fun. Hate the mini for the Assault Frigate Mk2 and want to use a Shapeways Dreadnought or something instead? Sure, that's cool.

Things like arguing over the kneeling pose of the missile trooper in Legion not being able to shoot over stuff that a standing trooper can as a "conscious decision of the FFG design team? Yeah, you can go screw off if that's enough of an issue, I'll just have fun playing elsewhere.

Hell, I print out tons of my cards for Armada and Xwing, and have played Xwing a bunch of times with my large pocketmodels collection.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/31 12:00:25




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Peregrine wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
See, this nonsense is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not "my own custom system", it's just how people move sodding wargames models and have done for decades.


That's fine, if you are playing one of those games. But that's not how Legion does it, and your system is a custom one when applied to a game that uses a different measuring system. The fact that lots of people have moved wargames models for decades using a hex grid system doesn't make it any less of a custom system if you try to use it to play 40k.


Don't be obtuse Peregrine, that's not even remotely comparable. Legion doesn't use a different measuring system, it uses inches and degrees, but insists you should use custom tools and bases to add a needless layer of abstraction. There is no difference, none, zero, nada, between "place down Official(tm) FFG(tm) Range Stick(tm) and move at Speed 1" and "move 4 inches using a tape measure". If "not using a different tool to measure distance than the one provided in the starter box" means "custom movement system", then the vast majority of people out there are playing their games with "custom movement systems"

Those tools are no more necessary to play the game than the plastic whippy-sticks you get in GW starter boxes are.


Again, yes, you can duplicate Legion's measurements 100% exactly with careful use of other tools. But what is the point? By the time you've demonstrated that your alternate tool is getting the correct result you could have just used the standard tool and moved on to the next part of the game. It's a lot of effort spent for nothing more than sheer stubborn refusal to accept how FFG does it.


"Careful" implying measuring X number of inches with one straight stick with markings on it is somehow radically less accurate than another? Come off it. And the effort is only necessary if someone is so massively enslaved to the idea of "but it's not officiaaaaaal" that they'll insist there's a meaningful difference in how FFG does it, rather than just getting on with a game.

Yeah, looks like Legion is going to be a TFG game then, I'll pass and go back to my plan A of using the models for systems that don't pretend fractions of a millimetre variances are world-shattering problems.


I see, so now expecting correct measurements is a "TFG game"? Let me guess, you're one of those people who conveniently always finds that the fractions of a millimeter end up in their favor?


The really funny thing is, actually the complete reverse. But then, my priority when playing has always been to have a mutually enjoyable experience and I've always been willing to fudge things in my opponent's favour to ensure that happens, rather than dragging bother of us down into the mud to argue over utter trivialities because "those are the ruuuuuuules!".

A large part of the online Legion community, meanwhile, are spending their days gaking on new players for marking the arcs on the rims so they can do a proper scenic base; or insisting that swapping around leg, arm, and torso combinations on Stormtroopers to make squads visually distinct is badwrongevil because it might give someone a fractional LoS advantage, somehow, someway, maybe, someday; or insisting that even in the context of a closed group playing in your own home, you're wrong - in an absolute, moral sense - for using house rules, because any deviation from the official rules and tournament guidelines, no matter how slight, is basically the same as just throwing out the rules entirely and playing a different game.

I suppose I can only hope that those kinds of players are as unrepresentative of the Legion playerbase as their brethren are of GW's.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You are going out of your way to be as hostile and uncompromising as those you seek to vilify. I'm not surprised you're encountering a negative response.
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 LunarSol wrote:
You are going out of your way to be as hostile and uncompromising as those you seek to vilify. I'm not surprised you're encountering a negative response.


In what way? I'm not insisting everyone should do it my way. I'm not claiming doing it other ways is wrong. "Those I seek to vilify" are though. And just to be clear, the initial negative responses I "encountered" were people fully flipping out and claiming it is *literally cheating* to use a clear acrylic base of the correct size but without a bevel, because if used with the movement tool as-directed by the rulebook it would introduce a fractional, sub-millimetre error into the measuring process that might add up over the course of a game to a whole centimetre of "extra" movement. When people suggested you could just move the models slightly less than the full distance, this was angrily dismissed as "playing wrong"; when people pointed out that the kind of precision they're insisting must exist isn't possible on most normal game tables anyway, they declared that just means FFG should mandate that the game must only be played on flat printed mats, with all terrain on a single plane, and that everyone should obey that directive or also be "playing wrong".

The idea that me being annoyed at that kind of aggressively-petty behaviour - particularly when the targets of it are often new players - is equivalent to the behaviour itself is laughable.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
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Australia

Coming from playing 40k i believe that the 3rd party bases are a bit of a double edged sword, you can move further forward but also means that you're getting shot at earlier as well.

: 4500pts

Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts 
   
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[MOD]
Villanous Scum







I have nothing to add to the Legion talk but from my experiences in X-Wing I have to say that I have never played anyone casually who had a problem with playing against lists using proxies/stand ins, providing the dial was right. This includes using printed squadron sheets without having the cards.

In tournaments I have never come across anyone who had an issue playing against 3rd party movement templates (even though they are often quite inaccurate) nor modified ships providing it was identifiable.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
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It’s not a 40k player, or an Xwing player thing, it’s an every game internet player thing. Whenever I see conversions and stuff posted online you get that kind of “well that’s not technically legal” comments on it, but then in practical experience I’ve never seen it be an issue outside the most official of events or some lone store event runner, so I mostly just tone them out as background noise.

 
   
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 Yodhrin wrote:
Legion doesn't use a different measuring system, it uses inches and degrees, but insists you should use custom tools and bases to add a needless layer of abstraction. There is no difference, none, zero, nada, between "place down Official(tm) FFG(tm) Range Stick(tm) and move at Speed 1" and "move 4 inches using a tape measure".


There absolutely is a difference because of how the angles work. You could duplicate it using a tape measure and protractor, but why bother? By the time you've finished demonstrating that your alternative method gets the same result you've wasted way more of my time than you can possibly justify. There is no reason to refuse to use the standard tool.

If "not using a different tool to measure distance than the one provided in the starter box" means "custom movement system", then the vast majority of people out there are playing their games with "custom movement systems"


No, that is not true at all. Most people playing 40k use a tape measure marked in inches. Most people playing X-Wing use the standard templates.

"Careful" implying measuring X number of inches with one straight stick with markings on it is somehow radically less accurate than another?


Yes, because the FFG tool allows you to very quickly measure the 4" (or whatever) distance. It clearly shows if it is or isn't a legal move even if you're looking at it from across the table. With the tape measure you have to bend it carefully, make sure it is lined up correctly with the base at both ends, make sure that you're exactly at the 4" mark and not getting extra distance, etc. FFG used this method for a reason.

And the effort is only necessary if someone is so massively enslaved to the idea of "but it's not officiaaaaaal" that they'll insist there's a meaningful difference in how FFG does it, rather than just getting on with a game.


Let me get this straight: someone shows up at your game night and says "I have a new way to measure, trust me, I'm not cheating" and you just let them do it without any questions? You don't demand proof that the FFG tool is exactly 4" long, and not 3.8"? You don't have them demonstrate some moves to show that they are exactly equivalent?

A large part of the online Legion community, meanwhile, are spending their days gaking on new players for marking the arcs on the rims so they can do a proper scenic base; or insisting that swapping around leg, arm, and torso combinations on Stormtroopers to make squads visually distinct is badwrongevil because it might give someone a fractional LoS advantage, somehow, someway, maybe, someday; or insisting that even in the context of a closed group playing in your own home, you're wrong - in an absolute, moral sense - for using house rules, because any deviation from the official rules and tournament guidelines, no matter how slight, is basically the same as just throwing out the rules entirely and playing a different game.


IOW, "I don't have to play by the rules as long as I have a good reason for breaking them, and my opponents need to just accept that I'm breaking the rules or they're TFG". No.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Second Story Man





Austria

What will be legal and what not is unknown for now as there are no rules for official events

So if only a kneeling Stormtrupper Rocket Launcher will be allowed or if a standing version too is a question only FFG can answer.


Regarding Bases, official measurement or conversions:
There is the 40k community that goes nuts on RAW VS RAI while no one cares about base size at all.
And just for those who don't know it, GW's 60mm base has a 65mm diameter and their 25mm bases are 22-23mm
So everyone who uses not original GW bases but custom ones use the wrong size and even some tournaments insists on using wrong sized bases

But it is a detail with low impact to the game therefore no one really cares that same have 2mm smaller bases for their troops
Same for Legion, for gameplay alone, using 25mm straight edge instead of the official 27mm makes no difference at all

Same as no one cares to use the official red sticks from the GW although measuring with something custom gives you different ranges.



And I would not care that much about people on the internet as they are less relaxed about games in general than those you meet on the table.
The other thing is that the game still need some time to develop, most people are using not enough terrain, no one knows how strict WYSIWYG (cards and models) should be
People coming from 40k need to get used to the LOS and Cover rules

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

X-Wing is certainly the game where the precision of the templates creates some intense, tesrse dogfights - I’ve found myself in many situations where millimeters was the difference between setting up a proper attack run and getting caught in the open. Even so, our group has been playing with acrylic 3rd party templates and tokens. We’d probsbly tongue lash someone with an inch of their life though if they were to suggest we only use the official templates, though.

In my experience, in FFG’s other games, the templates have been somewhat less importants - in declining order Armada then Runewars. I haven’t put Legion to the tabletop yet, but it is the game I’m least concerned with movement templates.

In Runewars case, I respect that the type of move you choose is important (left, right, about so far), but actually being limited to move the full template distance (without an upgrade card to stop short) irks me; I’d very much like to be able to stop at any point along m chosen move path without needing an upgrade card to do so. Even so, our play group would have no problem with 3rd party templates.

Same logic would go to Legion. In the end, if I’m not playing in someone’s tournament, I’ll be damned if I let someone else dictate how I’m going to have fun and how I spend my funds to enjoy myself. Its not like FFG or the other posters will be standing over you and your group’s shoulder’s making sure “you’re doing it right”.

It never ends well 
   
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 Yodhrin wrote:

In what way?


The thread had been dead for well over a week because most people simply do not care. Kicking the bear to resume hostilities looks like you're trying to find an opponent.

As Aduro said; online, if you want an official answer, the official answer is no, this stuff isn't legal per the rules. Most people are perfectly reasonable and willing to work with proxies, alternative measurement devices and the works, but they're also reasonable enough to understand that if someone does want to play by the rules, they are the ones in the "wrong" and might need to adapt.
When people ask about these things online, people generally respond with the "technically correct" answer because its the one that doesn't have any caveats. You can absolutely break those guidelines, but in doing so you need to accept that there may be consequences. Maybe FFG won't let you play at a major con or something? Is that important to you? Is that a potential consequence you are willing to accept?

I've got a friend with a Skorne army that I've essentially replaced every Titan with a triceratops because he loves dinosaurs. He's played hundreds of games with these models that make up the vast majority of is gaming time. He's also been told at major cons that they would DQ him from day 2 championships should he get that far. Doesn't matter, he likes playing with those models and accepts that he's the one breaking the rules and sometimes that limits what he can do.

People will give you the strict guidelines, but that's largely just to act as a warning sign. You are free to cross it, just be willing to accept that not everyone will agree with your rebellious behavior.
   
 
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