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Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Protests in Gaza have sparked an armed response from the IDF unsurprisingly.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43603199

Protesters threw rocks at the barrier fence with Gaza. Israel responded per usual with tanks firing on protesters in other countries. Over a thousand were injured, with only 16 fatalities (thus far), surprisingly.


You know, frankly, if there was a nation who's diplomats should be sent home, it's Israel.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 19:42:20



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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The Great State of Texas

Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 20:12:19


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Birmingham, UK

Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.


Excessive elsewhere. par for the course in this region of the world.

Israel will mount operations against Hamas and I cant say i'll be too disappointed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 21:08:40


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.


Yes, in much the way that Jews getting loose from the ghetto might have caused horror everywhere. It was good the Nazis stopped them before it could happen.

Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.

In fact, the IDF has killed more American civilians than all Palestinian organizations put together.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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 Frazzled wrote:
Thousands of Hamas led "protesters" breaking through the frontier, it's a bloodbath if they get into civilian Israeli areas.

This is what happens when an entire region grows up without proper TexMex.


Most of them seem to be unarmed as evidenced that they're just throwing rocks. In plenty of European countries that's your standard lost a footbal game riots/may day riots. There is always the chance to increase the level of force required, but going for lethal methods when you knew this was going to occur in advance is a bit extreme. Using tanks against a mob/protestors/rioters lands you on a not so illustrious list of a certain type of country.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/31 22:09:24


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Birmingham, UK

 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally.


Israel still has the intelligence and military capacity to ensure that doesn't happen. It also has the will to do something.

In open conflict Hamas and those militias would be wiped out within hours. Hiding behind politics and within cities/behind civilians hampers what would be an overwhelming response. And I actually have no love for the state of Israel and its land grabs and settlement building.


   
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 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 22:17:44


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?


Well of course Hamas knew what would happen, it counted on it in fact. Problem is that the Israelis walked right into the trap with their excessive response. Its pretty bloody stupid of Israel to use this level of force knowing that it was the intention to provoke it. You end up shooting mostly unarmed protestors because they got close to a fence, which is for some reason a crime punishable by death

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 22:29:16


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Israel gives up that land Iranian er... Syrian militia yea thats the name...tanks can cut the country in two in an hour, literally. The Iranian drone shot down over Israel ended any chance of a two state solution for decades it until the Iranian regime changes.

The Golan Heights are more of an Isreali-Syrian conflict. It doesn't have to be resolved for a two state solution between Palestine and Israel. The bigger issue is what borders would be used and what kind of right to return is included.

Besides, its pretty commonly accepted that Israel has developed nukes to scare of agression from countries such as Iran. So trying to drive the Israelis back into the sea is going to have quite the apocalyptic flavor to it. Not likely that Iran would ever risk that.


Quite the. More like total armageddon delivered to the aggressor.

They have alot smaller country, no where to retreat and to lose a few dozen miles is to lose a war. They have zero chill, zero chance of a second chance or so.

That's the problem.
They do. Or they die.

And this current protest.. Well Hamas knew exactly how If reacted every other time. They knew how they treat border breaches as direct invasion. They knew this would end in a gak show yet they let them and lead them out into it.

So let's be Frank. It's messed up on both sides. There's is no f
Good, bad or so in middle east just shades of grey and how much grey your willing to get on your hands. That grey is normaly red with blood.

Did anyone except this to ever work out as a good idea. On either side?


Well of course Hamas knew what would happen, it counted on it in fact. Problem is that the Israelis walked right into the trap with their excessive response. Its pretty bloody stupid of Israel to use this level of force knowing that it was the intention to provoke it. You end up shooting mostly unarmed protestors because they got close to a fence, which is for some reason a crime punishable by death


Yeah. IDF over reacts. Instant bolster for Hamas support locally.

Make big propaganda use of funerals and declare them hero's etc. Publish widely. Repeat until required goal met. Add sad interview with widows etc for added emotional propaganda.

Hamas uses as above
Israel walked into the hole.

At most CS and Flash bag type grenades would repel some rock throwing teans etc. The last one ud bangs a d bright flash would mean anyone close to fence not wanna stay long.

When your eyes hurt like hell, your half blinded and ears right g painfully. Your no longer a threat. There's no need for live fire. The threat is withdrawing.

No one dead, a few people maybe needing a short hospital check up or overnight.

No one dead....

No propaganda as above.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/31 23:54:40



 
   
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Well, you know what they say about the IQ level of a mob. Its also just a different upbringing I guess, its pretty unthinkable to us, but dying has been romanticized over there to an extent. Young men/kids also tend to be pretty hot headed and not that strong at reflecting on actions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/01 00:05:10


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.


Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.

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Chicago

 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.

Simple? Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians...
I am afraid no one wants to compromise over there.


Ironic because that was pretty much the 2008 peace offer which Abbas rejected

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 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.

Bit of a Darwin award to the protestors really? I mean, all moral considerations to one side for a minute. If I'm thick enough to start lighting up Molotovs and trying to run a gauntlet of heavily armed soldiers; soldiers who have made it expressly clear that doing so will get me shot, I clearly haven't got much going on upstairs.

It is not stupidity, it is fanaticism. Those protesters are full well aware they might get shot. But that is a sacrifice they are willing to bring for their cause.

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Grey Templar wrote:

Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.


Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.

 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.


And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Interestingly, and this should say a lot about the situation: 'Nakba' and 'shoah' literally mean the same thing. Sadly, and increasingly, in more ways than one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/01 01:59:53



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Chicago

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

Indeed. That’s why they deserve no sympathy.


Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.

 Ketara wrote:
So....17,000 protestors march on Israeli border. A locked down border covered in heavily armed military men enforcing a no go zone. Groups of said protestors then begin to lob petrol bombs at and try to destroy a wall and breach then border. Soldiers shoot and kill them.


And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Interestingly, and this should say a lot about the situation: 'Nakba' and 'shoah' literally mean the same thing. Sadly, and increasingly, in more ways than one.



Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same

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Any country that had a hostile army show up on its borders is well within their right to fire upon them. And yes, if a mob of thugs and brutes reaches 17k they can be called an army.

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 BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey, you and I have very different ideas on who deserves sympathy in Gaza. I guarantee you, that if the US government turned tanks on protestors in front of, say, the White House, there would be hell to pay.


That's not even close to the same thing. If US troops fired on an angry mob of rock throwing, petrol bomb tossing Mexicans threatening to cross the US-Mexico border, that would be a closer equivalent. And the US would do it, and everyone would agree they have the right to defend their borders.

Remember that just because rocks and petrol bombs are 'primitive' weapons compared to today's modern guns, they're still very much lethal weapons. A fist sized rock thrown by a proper sling has been killing people for thousands of years and molotov cocktails can set tanks on fire and kill or seriously injure the crew.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/01 02:35:50


   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.
Citation needed.

And more than just "Jerusalem Post said..." because I googled it and can't find it.

That's orders of magnitude bigger than any estimate I've heard, like, they'd have to be killing 235 civilians a day on average for that number to come about.

Other estimates I've read have put it about 51,000 killed in total (including military casualties), of which Arabs make up 35,000 and Jewish folk 16,000, which is a drop in the ocean compared to how many folks are killed by other conflicts in the middle east.

Regarding the current protests, eh, I'd like to see some more information before I make any judgements. Maybe the IDF was overly aggressive, maybe the mob was hiding people with more than just rocks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/01 03:15:44


 
   
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Chicago

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let me let you in on something, Frazz: according to official numbers out of Tel Aviv, Israel has lost 4k +/- civilians to terrorism (of all stripes, World Wide) since 1948. At the same time, according to the Jerusalem Post, the IDF has slaughtered over six million Palestinian civvies.
Citation needed.

And more than just "Jerusalem Post said..." because I googled it and can't find it.

That's orders of magnitude bigger than any estimate I've heard, like, they'd have to be killing 235 civilians a day on average for that number to come about.

Other estimates I've read have put it about 51,000 killed in total (including military casualties), of which Arabs make up 35,000 and Jewish folk 16,000, which is a drop in the ocean compared to how many folks are killed by other conflicts in the middle east.

Regarding the current protests, eh, I'd like to see some more information before I make any judgements. Maybe the IDF was overly aggressive, maybe the mob was hiding people with more than just rocks.


Lets be honest it is Hamas, they use schools, mosques and hospitals as launch points for missiles I wouldn't put anything past them

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This seems reasonable.

Its a weekly thing for hundreds of Palestinians to turn up at the Israeli border and start throwing rocks and lighting fires. After a while the IDF soldiers throw some tear gas and most of the Palestinians disperse, before the IDF role in and start beating the organisers, or throw them in a jail. They could just light the place up (picture how soldiers would react to a molotov landing at their position), but go for a more measured approach. That one soldier who shot one of those knife spree attackers a while ago faced charges.

In which case if something more organised starts occurring, potentially preceding a larger armed revolt, then the IDF's going to respond to that in turn. The Israelis would prefer to nip a potentially more violent issue in the bud before it has the chance to escalate, and deal with the fall out. Hamas will respond with using that predicted violence - even if that wasn't their original intent - which will then justify the Israeli's actions. In which case the cycle continues.

Which makes one wonder how the situation would go down if the Palestinian side didn't use violent means to achieve their goals? Of course its been tried, and even had these groups not participated in the usual rock throwing and other crap the IDF would have stilled rolled in, however attacking non-violent protesters has a different spin than putting down those aligned with a terrorist organisation.


Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/01 03:35:46


 
   
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 Wyrmalla wrote:
This seems reasonable.

Its a weekly thing for hundreds of Palestinians to turn up at the Israeli border and start throwing rocks and lighting fires. After a while the IDF soldiers throw some tear gas and most of the Palestinians disperse, before the IDF role in and start beating the organisers, or throw them in a jail. They could just light the place up (picture how soldiers would react to a molotov landing at their position), but go for a more measured approach. That one soldier who shot one of those knife spree attackers a while ago faced charges.

In which case if something more organised starts occurring, potentially preceding a larger armed revolt, then the IDF's going to respond to that in turn. The Israelis would prefer to nip a potentially more violent issue in the bud before it has the chance to escalate, and deal with the fall out. Hamas will respond with using that predicted violence - even if that wasn't their original intent - which will then justify the Israeli's actions. In which case the cycle continues.

Which makes one wonder how the situation would go down if the Palestinian side didn't use violent means to achieve their goals? Of course its been tried, and even had these groups not participated in the usual rock throwing and other crap the IDF would have stilled rolled in, however attacking non-violent protesters has a different spin than putting down those aligned with a terrorist organisation.


Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...


And that last sentence is the part that makes the Nakba vs Holocaust/Shoah point moot, the Palestinians left because they knew or we told that the Jews were to be killed in Israel. They just happened to lose and lets be honest here most Arab nations don't care about palestinians beyond using them as a tool to try and hurt Israel

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
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 Wyrmalla wrote:
Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...
The reason I raised the question is because the number that Baron put forth - "over 6 million civilians" - would be absolutely heinous. Given there was barely more than 1 million Arabs in the region back in 1948 and these days there's I believe still less than 6 million, that'd amount to, what, killing every 2nd Arab or some such? That's genocide level of killing, whereas I think the real number is something much more believable (and at a random guess is probably below the ratio of muricans killed by foreigners vs number of foreigners killed by muricans since the end of WW2).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/01 07:59:36


 
   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Talking about the numbers of people who have died on either side of this conflict is perhaps a bit moot when since Israel's foundation you've had its immediate neighbours pledging to commit genocide against the entire Jewish population of the state...
The reason I raised the question is because the number that Baron put forth - "over 6 million civilians" - would be absolutely heinous. Given there was barely more than 1 million Arabs in the region back in 1948 and these days there's I believe still less than 6 million, that'd amount to, what, killing every 2nd Arab or some such? That's genocide level of killing, whereas I think the real number is something much more believable (and at a random guess is probably below the ratio of muricans killed by foreigners vs number of foreigners killed by muricans since the end of WW2).


An odd number considering that the Jerusalem Post puts the number of Jews dead in the holocaust at 6 million.

Edit: Oh, and the complete nonsense of that stat being coupled with Wikipedia's placing that the entirety of the Arab-Israeli wars have resulted in: just under less than 1 million deaths total for both sides (where even if that's wrong, finding another 5 million is a bit of a leap). Similar figures are corroborated by the first few hits on Google (where even the ones with a clear bias for the Arab side still not pushing the total over 1 million).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/01 08:07:40


 
   
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Yeah, 6 million is at best a wind up.





   
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 Mr. Burning wrote:
Yeah, 6 million is at best a wind up.


The UN does not think so, since the Post got the numbers from UNWRA, who have been observing the situation for sometime. However, I will add that this is the UN total for deaths directly caused by Israel's troops and policies over a 70 year period, so if they died of starvation due to one of the various blockades, they get counted. I'm looking around for a copy of the original report to link here. These are what's known as 'unnecessary deaths' which the Wikipedia articles expressly does not include. One number that gets bandied about a bit is that on average, over 3000 infants die per year in ways that can be directly attributed to the situation between Israel and Palestine. So you can imagine how it adds up over time.

Some numbers from the liberal press, and where they say they got it, re the fighting in 2014:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2014/08/israel-and-palestinians

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Israelis: 4.5% [IDF]

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 70-85% [Ministry of Health, Gaza; UN; independent NGOs]

Proportion of civilian to military deaths among Palestinians: 50% [Israeli government]

This last one is pretty damning, as even the Israeli government admits for every single enemy fighter they killed, they also killed a civilian. This is because of the use of overwhelming force, per standing policy, against Hamas in particular, but also Palestinians in general So, when they suspect a building may contain Hamas fighters, they do not clear the building, they bring it, and possibly the surrounding several blocks, down, via artillery barrage or bombings.

In addition, Israel currently insists that all videos showing fleeing persons being shot are fabrications. The mods generally frown on me posting images and videos of people getting killed, so you can go look them up yourself. They've also taken down a tweet from the official IDF spokesman account admitting to the deaths of civilians. Now, magically, most the dead were terrorists.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-gaza-violence-protests-deaths-land-day-tanks-bullets-hamas-a8283676.html



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/01 15:32:06



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