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Wasn't sure what to write as this thread's title.

So, the Legions existed before the Primarchs, right? If so, when the Primarchs were "rediscovered", were there any Legions who said "Dude, who are you? Get outta here, we don't need you." Or did every single legion accept their Primarch with open arms?

 BuFFo wrote:
Wasn't sure what to write as this thread's title.

So, the Legions existed before the Primarchs, right? If so, when the Primarchs were "rediscovered", were there any Legions who said "Dude, who are you? Get outta here, we don't need you." Or did every single legion accept their Primarch with open arms?

Some were a little not happy with the new Primarchs. Dark Angels and Night Lords come to mind.

The Primarchs existed first. When Chaos did their shenanigans and yoink them the Emperor Took what little he had and made the legions from the left over Primarch material.

Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

 Formosa wrote:
Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

the primachs where CREATED first, but the space marine legions where eistablished before the primarchs where retreived

it's been hinted that space marines have a genetic pre-disposition to follow their primarchs

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

the primachs where CREATED first, but the space marine legions where eistablished before the primarchs where retreived

it's been hinted that space marines have a genetic pre-disposition to follow their primarchs

Not hinted at all. The Legions geneseed were made off of the genetics of their Primarch. That's been lore that's been established for the 20 years I've been playing this game.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

the primachs where CREATED first, but the space marine legions where eistablished before the primarchs where retreived

it's been hinted that space marines have a genetic pre-disposition to follow their primarchs

Astelan seems to think he and the other marines were created BEFORE the primarchs, as far as im aware no primarchs were made prior to the end unification wars, in addition the process to made the first marines was very different to the standard process.

Are you thinking of the Thunder Warriors? They were the ones created before the Primarchs and fought in the Unification Wars. E-money wiped them out when he had no further use for them. They were inadequate for a long term war across the galaxy due to a flaw that degraded them over time. He then began creating his next set of temporary tools, the Primarchs, and then after that he created space marines from the Primarchs gene seed.

 Formosa wrote:
Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

No they didn't. All codexes since at the very least 3rd edition state that the Legiones Astartes were created from the Primarchs' genetic material after they were spirited away by the Gods of Chaos. Thus logic alone dictates that no Space Marine could have been created without at least one primarch already existing. We know that all Primarchs were spirited away at the same time, and we know that the Legiones Astartes were bred after the Primarchs were spirited away. From this follows that all Primarchs were already created and alive, albeit on other planets, when the legions were created.

I've also flicked quickly through my copy of Angels of Caliban and can't find any such statements by Astelan. What I find is statements about how he was amongst the earliest Space Marines to fight directly at the Emperor's side during the Unification Wars. Do you have a page number maybe?

Once the Unification Wars were complete in the middle centuries of the 30th Millennium

Perturabo would later estimate his own birth to be 792.M30,

Astelan claimed that his people were then among the first to fight alongside the Emperor during the Wars of Unification and that it was from them that the Emperor took the first recruits for the Legiones Astartes. Astelan was inducted into the First Legion - then the only legion.

So either the time lines dont match up, or Space marines were around in small numbers prior to the primarchs.

Space Marines weren't around prior to the Primarchs. And anythign that might suggest that they were, like Astelan who was introduced well before the Heresy, is completely out dated. Replaced by the newer stuff even.

Primarchs came first, then the Space Marines. Many of the Space Marine Legions in their early forms were then used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, in fact I'm pretty sure all of them have mention of being used to put down some one during the Wars, or a rebellion very shortly there after.

Unification Wars - War for Luna/Terran Rebellions - Pacification of the Solar System - Great Crusade

Didn't the Warhounds/World Eaters pretty much reject Angron at first? Until the Praetor leading them 'disappeared'?

 The Observer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Space marines existed before the primarchs, notably the 1st legion marines (not the dark angels) were used during the unification wars, Astelan talks about it in Angels of Caliban

No they didn't. All codexes since at the very least 3rd edition state that the Legiones Astartes were created from the Primarchs' genetic material after they were spirited away by the Gods of Chaos. Thus logic alone dictates that no Space Marine could have been created without at least one primarch already existing. We know that all Primarchs were spirited away at the same time, and we know that the Legiones Astartes were bred after the Primarchs were spirited away. From this follows that all Primarchs were already created and alive, albeit on other planets, when the legions were created.

I've also flicked quickly through my copy of Angels of Caliban and can't find any such statements by Astelan. What I find is statements about how he was amongst the earliest Space Marines to fight directly at the Emperor's side during the Unification Wars. Do you have a page number maybe?

I believe there was cross over. Marines were starting to be made during the incubation of the Primarchs. The Big E obviously needed to go through with some prototypes so that once the Primarchs were mature they would have ready made armies to immediately lead that didn’t need any tweaking.

Marines were being developed at the same time as the Primarchs were being incubated/grown.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Space Marines weren't around prior to the Primarchs. And anythign that might suggest that they were, like Astelan who was introduced well before the Heresy, is completely out dated. Replaced by the newer stuff even.

Primarchs came first, then the Space Marines. Many of the Space Marine Legions in their early forms were then used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, in fact I'm pretty sure all of them have mention of being used to put down some one during the Wars, or a rebellion very shortly there after.

Unification Wars - War for Luna/Terran Rebellions - Pacification of the Solar System - Great Crusade

20 December 2016 is when Angels of Caliban was released so its not old and outdated fluff, its very recent fluff, this replaces the older fluff as you say.


So we have Astelan claiming to have fought during the Unification wars, which ended mid 30M, Peturabo estimating that he was created around 792.M30, that leaves around 292 years gap between the two, longer than a normal human could live, Astelan also states that his mind was shielded as "the emperor wasnt the only powerful psyker" around during the Unification wars, so even if he had fought as human during the unification wars he would have had to been made a marine very shortly after or he would have died of old age prior to the Primarchs being created.

 Formosa wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Space Marines weren't around prior to the Primarchs. And anythign that might suggest that they were, like Astelan who was introduced well before the Heresy, is completely out dated. Replaced by the newer stuff even.

Primarchs came first, then the Space Marines. Many of the Space Marine Legions in their early forms were then used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, in fact I'm pretty sure all of them have mention of being used to put down some one during the Wars, or a rebellion very shortly there after.

Unification Wars - War for Luna/Terran Rebellions - Pacification of the Solar System - Great Crusade

20 December 2016 is when Angels of Caliban was released so its not old and outdated fluff, its very recent fluff, this replaces the older fluff as you say.


So we have Astelan claiming to have fought during the Unification wars, which ended mid 30M, Peturabo estimating that he was created around 792.M30, that leaves around 292 years gap between the two, longer than a normal human could live, Astelan also states that his mind was shielded as "the emperor wasnt the only powerful psyker" around during the Unification wars, so even if he had fought as human during the unification wars he would have had to been made a marine very shortly after or he would have died of old age prior to the Primarchs being created.

Seems if anything like a fluff mistake that's slipped through, nothing more. The only big difference I can think of between the marines that came before the primarchs were re-discovered and after is there world of origin.

 Sasquatch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Space Marines weren't around prior to the Primarchs. And anythign that might suggest that they were, like Astelan who was introduced well before the Heresy, is completely out dated. Replaced by the newer stuff even.

Primarchs came first, then the Space Marines. Many of the Space Marine Legions in their early forms were then used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, in fact I'm pretty sure all of them have mention of being used to put down some one during the Wars, or a rebellion very shortly there after.

Unification Wars - War for Luna/Terran Rebellions - Pacification of the Solar System - Great Crusade

20 December 2016 is when Angels of Caliban was released so its not old and outdated fluff, its very recent fluff, this replaces the older fluff as you say.


So we have Astelan claiming to have fought during the Unification wars, which ended mid 30M, Peturabo estimating that he was created around 792.M30, that leaves around 292 years gap between the two, longer than a normal human could live, Astelan also states that his mind was shielded as "the emperor wasnt the only powerful psyker" around during the Unification wars, so even if he had fought as human during the unification wars he would have had to been made a marine very shortly after or he would have died of old age prior to the Primarchs being created.

Seems if anything like a fluff mistake that's slipped through, nothing more. The only big difference I can think of between the marines that came before the primarchs were re-discovered and after is there world of origin.

Could be, it could also be that they were the experimental marines, before the process was refined and the gene seed process was "perfected" given that these marines were "soul bound" for lack of a better term to protect them against psykers it could also make sense, and again it could also be that the Emperor used these marines as test beds for the Custodes project, do we know when the first Custodes were created?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah the Custodes were created "early in the unification wars" so its not much of a leap that proto marines were created during that time prior to the primarch project.

 Formosa wrote:
Could be, it could also be that they were the experimental marines, before the process was refined and the gene seed process was "perfected" given that these marines were "soul bound" for lack of a better term to protect them against psykers it could also make sense, and again it could also be that the Emperor used these marines as test beds for the Custodes project, do we know when the first Custodes were created?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah the Custodes were created "early in the unification wars" so its not much of a leap that proto marines were created during that time prior to the primarch project.

I'm not completely sure of the time line but I do rememeber reading somewhere that the Custodes pre-date the Thunder Warriors, and if anything would be a proto marine it seems that the Thunder Warriors would fit that bill.

I mean you could try and argue that there must be some inbetween stages or early trial versions of marines but I think that would be in complete speculation territory. Its kinda fun to speculate but I'm still thinking fluff mistake. It wouldn't be the first and it defintaly won't be the last! XD

Following this thread, does it say anywhere what the timescale for the Emperor finding the Primarchs was? How long between the first and the last?
Also the Emperor had the First Legion with him when he met the Lion. Did he know who was on each planet and so have their legion with him when he landed? or were there cases of 'Hi missing Primarch, your legion is on the other side of the galaxy!'?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Didn't the Warhounds/World Eaters pretty much reject Angron at first? Until the Praetor leading them 'disappeared'?

IIRC it was Angron who rejected them and butchered every Warhound officer who tried to make friends with him. In the end Kharn managed to reason with him and was "rewarded" with the position of equerry.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sasquatch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Space Marines weren't around prior to the Primarchs. And anythign that might suggest that they were, like Astelan who was introduced well before the Heresy, is completely out dated. Replaced by the newer stuff even.

Primarchs came first, then the Space Marines. Many of the Space Marine Legions in their early forms were then used in the closing days of the Unification Wars, in fact I'm pretty sure all of them have mention of being used to put down some one during the Wars, or a rebellion very shortly there after.

Unification Wars - War for Luna/Terran Rebellions - Pacification of the Solar System - Great Crusade

20 December 2016 is when Angels of Caliban was released so its not old and outdated fluff, its very recent fluff, this replaces the older fluff as you say.


So we have Astelan claiming to have fought during the Unification wars, which ended mid 30M, Peturabo estimating that he was created around 792.M30, that leaves around 292 years gap between the two, longer than a normal human could live, Astelan also states that his mind was shielded as "the emperor wasnt the only powerful psyker" around during the Unification wars, so even if he had fought as human during the unification wars he would have had to been made a marine very shortly after or he would have died of old age prior to the Primarchs being created.

Seems if anything like a fluff mistake that's slipped through, nothing more. The only big difference I can think of between the marines that came before the primarchs were re-discovered and after is there world of origin.

Could be, it could also be that they were the experimental marines, before the process was refined and the gene seed process was "perfected" given that these marines were "soul bound" for lack of a better term to protect them against psykers it could also make sense, and again it could also be that the Emperor used these marines as test beds for the Custodes project, do we know when the first Custodes were created?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah the Custodes were created "early in the unification wars" so its not much of a leap that proto marines were created during that time prior to the primarch project.

the over all narraitve has been pretty clear on the primarchs coming first and the space marines coming afterwards. any fluff that doesn't quite line up is likely wrong. the easiest explination? Pertabo miscalculated. OR the Primarchs where in gestation for awhile, OR (and this is most likely) the unification wars dates are wrong)

It seems likely to me that the Primarch Project was begun before the camapign of conquest was truely finished (it makes the emperor's decision to begin the webway project before the crusade is ended make more sense if he's had a tendancy of letting his leuitenants finish the job and had sucess with it) the first space marines being ready for deployment during the "mopping up phases" of the 600s and 700s M30.

Makes sense, doubt peturabo is wrong however calculation is kinda his thing, as you say there could be many reasons why Astelan says he fought in the unification wars, he could be lying... it is Astelan after all... that’s HIS thing

 Formosa wrote:
Makes sense, doubt peturabo is wrong however calculation is kinda his thing, as you say there could be many reasons why Astelan says he fought in the unification wars, he could be lying... it is Astelan after all... that’s HIS thing

There are several records of Space Marines fighting in the Unification Wars (especially in the FW Books) :

"The XVIth Legion most likely had a strength of no more than a thousand at its birth, and yet despite their numeration are known from a wealth of evidence to have been one of the first active units of the Legiones Astartes, with many battle honours in the later Wars of Unification." (Horus Heresy 1 - Betrayal)

"The Legion's first recorded engagement saw them used in the Sa'afrik Liberation [...] The nascent Legion however seems to have been largely held in reserve by the Emperor during the latter Unification Wars." (Betrayal, about the World Eaters)

"The Antartic Clearance is, for example, marked as a Victory for the Imperial Army Group Antilles, but in truth any detailed analysis of the conflict reveals that it was the 3rd Legion which sculpted the tactics and stretegies of the campaign." (still Betrayal)

And that's only in Betrayal, which covers the four original traitor legions. So even if Astelan is lying, we have a lot of testimonies for Space Marines fighting during Unification Wars. The books also mentions that gene-seed implanted into earlier recruits of the Night Lords would grant them enhanced night-vision, which proves that the Legions already had gene-seed derived from their Primarchs in this era.

The pre-primarch Astartes could have been genhanced humans without geneseed, like the original Dark Angels from Caliban who were too old to take all of the implants.

phillv85 wrote:
The pre-primarch Astartes could have been genhanced humans without geneseed, like the original Dark Angels from Caliban who were too old to take all of the implants.

They are specifically said in the FW books to have geneseed, and Astelan is a "true" Astarte, not a genhanced human.

In Magnus the Read, they flat out state that legions fought on Terra. They don't really say why. (I thought terra was unified by the time any primarchs were found.)

 SickSix wrote:
In Magnus the Read, they flat out state that legions fought on Terra. They don't really say why. (I thought terra was unified by the time any primarchs were found.)

It was kind of, the question is of timelines, when exactly were the primarchs made and when were the first marines made?

Didn’t the armor through the ages set include a MK1 astartes that had no sealed mask? That would suggest being limited to only atmospheric conditions. Also we know that the moon was taken by astartes so it’s seems very likely they fought during or around the unification wars.

There's a very obvious explanation which resolves all of the fluff issues. Namely, that the two projects were running concurrently during the latter years of the Unification Wars. The Emperor had likely devised the basic gene templates for all his Primarchs and begun the process of attempting to craft them in his laboratory, even if they weren't growing or alive as babies at that stage. Looking to the future, he would have extracted certain elements from the Primarch genetic blueprint whilst perfecting his more generic 'Space Marine' template, and then combined the two to see how they worked out on the battlefield before the Primarchs were ever vat-grown or lost.

 Ketara wrote:
There's a very obvious explanation which resolves all of the fluff issues. Namely, that the two projects were running concurrently during the latter years of the Unification Wars. The Emperor had likely devised the basic gene templates for all his Primarchs and begun the process of attempting to craft them in his laboratory, even if they weren't growing or alive as babies at that stage. Looking to the future, he would have extracted certain elements from the Primarch genetic blueprint whilst perfecting his more generic 'Space Marine' template, and then combined the two to see how they worked out on the battlefield before the Primarchs were ever vat-grown or lost.

That gels quite well with what Astelan says.

Slightly off topic but the Primarchs series has some really good “early” great crusade fluff in them, well worth reading.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Didn’t the armor through the ages set include a MK1 astartes that had no sealed mask?

At least originally that was Thunder Warrior armour. But who knows, the fluff is an utter train wreck these days...