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If I take 5 vanguard detachments i can take 10 tempestor primes and 10 scion command squads. That's 40 plasma guns that can deepstrike, reroll wounds against monsters and vehicles, get extra shots on rolls of 6 and with yarrick nearby they can reroll 1s to hit making overcharging a lot safer. Even without yarrick they can be ordered to reroll 1s to hit.
Issue is that's 20 drops and only half your army can deepstrike from reserve.
So to make up 20 spots the cheapest units are, commanders at 30, platoon commanders at 20, astropaths, commissars, 2 man units of crusaders, wyrdvane pyskers and for 33 points, a squad of 3 mortar teams. So it's quite easy to get 20 units for around 500 points, giving you 1500 points to drop on your tempestus and let them all deepstrike
Biggest flaw is playing an army with deepstrike blockers so you're landing away from your opponent's vehicles, monsters, multiwound units and characters. Meaning you'll waste your plasma shots on weak infantry and then get killed when they shoot back with their decent guns.
My theory is to spend that 500 points on models outside of the tempestus on killing deepstrike blockers. Most infantry is t3 or t4 one wound. So bringing around 9 to 18 mortars that reroll all hits if they're cadian can knock of huge parts of a shield turn 1 while remaining out of line of sight because they don't need it to shoot. You can even make use of platoon commanders to give the orders while also allowing your tempestus to deepstrike in bulk. Having yarrick walk up the board with crusaders around him and an astropath boosting their invuln to 2+ or yarricks invuln to 3+ means he'll likely be in a good position for plasma to land turn 1 or turn 2.
If your opponent wants to take out the yarrick blob they'll likely have to shift their units around which could create holes for your tiny tempestus units to land and plasma things pretty bad. You can even run the primes with plasma pistols to add 10 more shots
The one thing I have learned about deepstrike is they're only as good as where they can land. So bringing say 4 tempestus vanguards might be better than 5 if it means you're investing more points in killing deepstrike blockers. Less tempestus units in better positions are better than more units in bad positions. Anyone have a list that really does this tactic justice? Anyone ever even tried it? How did you go? And if not what do you guys think the strengths and weaknesses of this list will be in a competitive scene?
That seems like a tight fit for most boards I play on. I run 3-4 Scions units and it's a little hard to slot them in depending on who I'm playing and how they're deployed. I feel like there's a point where you'll be forced to deploy out of range and in the open, but maybe that's okay for what you get. Seems very punchy.
This would hardly work. There is only a small amount of plasma squads you can take before they hit some serious diminishing returns.
Also, 18 mortars are not scarying any screen, those crusaders would never be able to save Yarrich and putting all that stuff out of LOS is impossible so it will die turn 1 if you held 75% of your forces in reserves.
This is one of those mathammer scenarios that would meet a swift end once it is tried on the table.
Problem is getting permission seeing most of the time that's just used to create broken cheese rather than any reasonable use. There's reason why tournaments enforce that 3 max or even less.
Sure I can fit 5 battallions of guard for ~1000 pts and get effectively ~30CP. Good luck getting OK from opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 12:11:39
ravenerioli wrote: If I take 5 vanguard detachments i can take 10 tempestor primes and 10 scion command squads. That's 40 plasma guns that can deepstrike, reroll wounds against monsters and vehicles, get extra shots on rolls of 6 and with yarrick nearby they can reroll 1s to hit making overcharging a lot safer. Even without yarrick they can be ordered to reroll 1s to hit.
Issue is that's 20 drops and only half your army can deepstrike from reserve.
So to make up 20 spots the cheapest units are, commanders at 30, platoon commanders at 20, astropaths, commissars, 2 man units of crusaders, wyrdvane pyskers and for 33 points, a squad of 3 mortar teams. So it's quite easy to get 20 units for around 500 points, giving you 1500 points to drop on your tempestus and let them all deepstrike
Biggest flaw is playing an army with deepstrike blockers so you're landing away from your opponent's vehicles, monsters, multiwound units and characters. Meaning you'll waste your plasma shots on weak infantry and then get killed when they shoot back with their decent guns.
My theory is to spend that 500 points on models outside of the tempestus on killing deepstrike blockers. Most infantry is t3 or t4 one wound. So bringing around 9 to 18 mortars that reroll all hits if they're cadian can knock of huge parts of a shield turn 1 while remaining out of line of sight because they don't need it to shoot. You can even make use of platoon commanders to give the orders while also allowing your tempestus to deepstrike in bulk. Having yarrick walk up the board with crusaders around him and an astropath boosting their invuln to 2+ or yarricks invuln to 3+ means he'll likely be in a good position for plasma to land turn 1 or turn 2.
If your opponent wants to take out the yarrick blob they'll likely have to shift their units around which could create holes for your tiny tempestus units to land and plasma things pretty bad. You can even run the primes with plasma pistols to add 10 more shots
The one thing I have learned about deepstrike is they're only as good as where they can land. So bringing say 4 tempestus vanguards might be better than 5 if it means you're investing more points in killing deepstrike blockers. Less tempestus units in better positions are better than more units in bad positions. Anyone have a list that really does this tactic justice? Anyone ever even tried it? How did you go? And if not what do you guys think the strengths and weaknesses of this list will be in a competitive scene?
Cheers
And who are you going to play with this list? No offical event I am aware of will let you take more than 3 Detachments, and some even limit you repeating the same kind of detachment more than once. If it's not an offical event, what's the motivation of your opponent to want to play the list?
I didn't mean at an event I meant competitive outside of tournament regulations. I'm talking playing any race bringing whatever they want within the match play rules what were the weaknesses of this list. And even if your mortars are in line of sight they'd be on the back of the table out of range of most things that you'd waste shots on them with. And 18 d6 s4 shots rerolling hits will. Smash any troop shield. And if it's a stronger unit than it will be worth a lot of points and the plasma would want to take it out anyway so it's not much of a wall. You don't even need to deepstrike everything in on the same turn. With how small the units are you can set them up hidden behind cover so they kill what they're meant to when they land and cop no shots in your opponents turn
Wouldn't it be more sensible to have 5 Tempestor Primes, 5 Scion Command Squads with 4 plasmaguns each, and then 5 regular Scion squads with 2 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol each?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
That could work but that's 4 plasma shots going missing and the pistol won't get extra hits on 6s when it deepstrikes and neither will the hotshot lasguns. I don't mind having 10 primes they're decent when they have power weapons and plasma pistols for taking out some remaining infantry, the last couple of wounds on a vehicle or character. They can all also throw grenades. If you run a vanguard with one command squad then you can only take commissars crusaders astropaths or some dud elites to fill the other two spaces so it's not worth it
I mean what happens with this list when you play stuff with stacking negatives to hit (re-rolling 1s is nice but when its 1s and 2s that kill you...). Also what happens when you play a chaos list with 150+ bodies and none of them care about being shot with plasma? And they have enough bodies to block you from deepstriking anywhere but your deployment zones?
My usual list is Tzaangors, Horrors, and Cultists - plasma is effectively meaningless.
ravenerioli wrote: I didn't mean at an event I meant competitive outside of tournament regulations. I'm talking playing any race bringing whatever they want within the match play rules what were the weaknesses of this list. And even if your mortars are in line of sight they'd be on the back of the table out of range of most things that you'd waste shots on them with. And 18 d6 s4 shots rerolling hits will. Smash any troop shield. And if it's a stronger unit than it will be worth a lot of points and the plasma would want to take it out anyway so it's not much of a wall. You don't even need to deepstrike everything in on the same turn. With how small the units are you can set them up hidden behind cover so they kill what they're meant to when they land and cop no shots in your opponents turn
That's the thing. You don't have to be in tournament to face max 3 det limits. People don't like broken crap so since more than 3 is used for that...
ravenerioli wrote: I didn't mean at an event I meant competitive outside of tournament regulations. I'm talking playing any race bringing whatever they want within the match play rules what were the weaknesses of this list. And even if your mortars are in line of sight they'd be on the back of the table out of range of most things that you'd waste shots on them with. And 18 d6 s4 shots rerolling hits will. Smash any troop shield. And if it's a stronger unit than it will be worth a lot of points and the plasma would want to take it out anyway so it's not much of a wall. You don't even need to deepstrike everything in on the same turn. With how small the units are you can set them up hidden behind cover so they kill what they're meant to when they land and cop no shots in your opponents turn
The match play rules limit the number of detachments you can have at 2k, to 3 detachments.
Also, what's the point of competitive play outside of tournament regulations? The whole point of those regulations is to make competitive play interesting.
In any case, you can easily have enough plasma scions to do the job. The only problem is that it's a bad army, with no way to deal with the stuff at the top of the tournament meta. Plasma is pretty inefficient against zombies, flyrants who aren't there yet and DA/eldar with -2 to hit.
Well 1, unless you are going to an event that specifically allows more than 3 detachments, this idea will never get to be played.
2. What are you going to do against horde armies? For example, my typical IG list includes something like 130 infantry and 4-6 leman russe's or other such heavy vehicles. If we get a deployment with a deep backfield, like hammer and anvil, I can place my tanks well out of your double tap and potentially outside of your plasma's range entirely. You have no long range AT and no way to protect your mortars, which will not have enough range to cover the whole board and stay safe in most scenarios if you plan on them all being around yarrick.
3. Your list has almost no melee answers, no screen, and no answers to heavy vehicles, pyskers, or high invuln saves. Don't get me wrong, I friggin love plasma, but you really don't have enough to make up for your lack of lascannons, battle cannons, earthshaker cannons, heck even lasguns. There are entire categories of lists that would shut you down so hard it isn't funny.
This idea is the epitome of a glass hammer. You will have a few opponents who you'll meds up turn one but even most casual lists wouldn't have too much trouble beating this. And that's what you're likely to face because I don't think I've ever heard of a metal allowing more than 3 detachments at 2k
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
ravenerioli wrote: I didn't mean at an event I meant competitive outside of tournament regulations. I'm talking playing any race bringing whatever they want within the match play rules what were the weaknesses of this list. And even if your mortars are in line of sight they'd be on the back of the table out of range of most things that you'd waste shots on them with. And 18 d6 s4 shots rerolling hits will. Smash any troop shield. And if it's a stronger unit than it will be worth a lot of points and the plasma would want to take it out anyway so it's not much of a wall. You don't even need to deepstrike everything in on the same turn. With how small the units are you can set them up hidden behind cover so they kill what they're meant to when they land and cop no shots in your opponents turn
Mathammer is your friend here.
18d6 mortar shots with rerolling hits will clear 21-22 GEQ (without any defensive bonus), that's a start, but hardly enough to clear a screen.
The match play rules limit the number of detachments you can have at 2k, to 3 detachments.
No, they dont.
They don't explicitly but by making the suggestion for 3 detachments they have effectively made it the defacto rule for all major events (including GWs). So while you are technically correct (and as we all know that's the best kind of correct) you know as well as anyone else in this thread that it is one of the most commonly followed restrictions in the game.
The detachment issue is pointless, he doesn't need to bring 5 Vanguards, he could do 2 Vanguard and a Supreme Command and have 11 HQ slots, 13 Elite slots.
Or, y'know, just bring a couple Battalions since Guard has great and cheap troops and go swimming in Command Points.
Lanlaorn wrote: The detachment issue is pointless, he doesn't need to bring 5 Vanguards, he could do 2 Vanguard and a Supreme Command and have 11 HQ slots, 13 Elite slots.
Or, y'know, just bring a couple Battalions since Guard has great and cheap troops and go swimming in Command Points.
You're wrong here because you can only take command squad per prime PER detatchment. So you take 3 primes in a supreme you can only take 1 command squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer_V2 wrote:I mean what happens with this list when you play stuff with stacking negatives to hit (re-rolling 1s is nice but when its 1s and 2s that kill you...). Also what happens when you play a chaos list with 150+ bodies and none of them care about being shot with plasma? And they have enough bodies to block you from deepstriking anywhere but your deployment zones?
My usual list is Tzaangors, Horrors, and Cultists - plasma is effectively meaningless.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Well 1, unless you are going to an event that specifically allows more than 3 detachments, this idea will never get to be played.
2. What are you going to do against horde armies? For example, my typical IG list includes something like 130 infantry and 4-6 leman russe's or other such heavy vehicles. If we get a deployment with a deep backfield, like hammer and anvil, I can place my tanks well out of your double tap and potentially outside of your plasma's range entirely. You have no long range AT and no way to protect your mortars, which will not have enough range to cover the whole board and stay safe in most scenarios if you plan on them all being around yarrick.
3. Your list has almost no melee answers, no screen, and no answers to heavy vehicles, pyskers, or high invuln saves. Don't get me wrong, I friggin love plasma, but you really don't have enough to make up for your lack of lascannons, battle cannons, earthshaker cannons, heck even lasguns. There are entire categories of lists that would shut you down so hard it isn't funny.
This idea is the epitome of a glass hammer. You will have a few opponents who you'll mess up turn one but even most casual lists wouldn't have too much trouble beating this. And that's what you're likely to face because I don't think I've ever heard of a metal allowing more than 3 detachments at 2k
If you take that much infantry in the CHAOS list the plasma will wreck almost all of it in a single turn. Plasma is a perfect horde killer. I'm rerolling 1s to hit 1s to wound while hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. Mortars can take out loads of horrors especially when I use the overlapping fields of fire strat to be hitting on 3s rerolling misses and wounding on 3s with 18D6 shots. And that's not even taking into account the losses to moral.
Against 130 guardsmen if my mortars are hidden inside buildings, behind LOS blocking terrain and right at the back of the board edge you won't be able to shoot them with lasguns. And if you move forward to get in range you leave gaps for my plasma to land and literally kill every single tank in the backlines. Remember I don't have to drop the scions til turn 3 if I dont want. That's 2 shooting phases of mortars against your guardsmen
How is this list not designed for killing heavy vehicles? That much plasma rerolling 1s, rerolling ALL wounds and getting extra hits on rolls of 6 would literally destroy any vehicle in the game.
Both of you comment your 2k list and I'll tell you how I'd play it with this list and we can decide from there
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 01:50:59
If you want to deepstrike everything and detachments aren't an issue, use inquisition vanguard detachments of 1 inquisitor and 6 individual acolytes. That's 7 drops for just over 100 pts.
That said, as others have pointed out 3 detachment limits are a thing, mainly to prevent exactly this kind of list.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
ravenerioli wrote: I didn't mean at an event I meant competitive outside of tournament regulations. I'm talking playing any race bringing whatever they want within the match play rules what were the weaknesses of this list. And even if your mortars are in line of sight they'd be on the back of the table out of range of most things that you'd waste shots on them with. And 18 d6 s4 shots rerolling hits will. Smash any troop shield. And if it's a stronger unit than it will be worth a lot of points and the plasma would want to take it out anyway so it's not much of a wall. You don't even need to deepstrike everything in on the same turn. With how small the units are you can set them up hidden behind cover so they kill what they're meant to when they land and cop no shots in your opponents turn
The match play rules limit the number of detachments you can have at 2k, to 3 detachments.
Also, what's the point of competitive play outside of tournament regulations? The whole point of those regulations is to make competitive play interesting.
In any case, you can easily have enough plasma scions to do the job. The only problem is that it's a bad army, with no way to deal with the stuff at the top of the tournament meta. Plasma is pretty inefficient against zombies, flyrants who aren't there yet and DA/eldar with -2 to hit.
I'll give him first turn so he has to deepstrike his flyrants before I bring down any of my scions. And this list destroys flyrants anyway. Like I said, rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling all wounds against monsters and vehicles and 6s giving extra shots. And when I have 80 shots at s8 doing 2 damage I don't think many flyrants will be alive
As for -2 to hit that doesn't happen often at all. They might run Alaitoc but I'll be deepstriking within 12 so that won't do a thing for them. They might have hemlocks and crimson hunters but I'm still hitting them on 4s at 12 inches and their guns are wasted on my list seeing as I have no vehicles or monsters. They might have vectored engines but again I'm hitting on 4s and wave serpents aren't much of a threat to me anyway. Even if I don't overcharge I'm hitting on 4s rerolling 1s wounding on 4s rerolling everything with a -3 AP. If they waste command points for a further -1 to hit a model I'll just shoot other models that turn
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: If you want to deepstrike everything and detachments aren't an issue, use inquisition vanguard detachments of 1 inquisitor and 6 individual acolytes. That's 7 drops for just over 100 pts.
That said, as others have pointed out 3 detachment limits are a thing, mainly to prevent exactly this kind of list.
Cheers for the heads up, just need to get the models now. But I also want a shield killer so it's not just about allowing 20 models to deepstrike. I'm happy to play most games with 3 detachment rule but sometimes you want to bring exotic lists to see how they play out. I might never bring this list, rn I don't even have 40 plasma scions but I'm just curious to see how people would counter this list
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 02:10:24
So this is more of a "Look at this awsome list I made that no one can beat" type of posts.
In all Honesty, my Average DKoK lists would laugh at this list. I'd just let you shoot my Infantry while I out range you with my Artillery. You'd be forced to drop all your squads outside of 12" of my Tanks/Arty. You'd be stuck with a choice, either shoot my tanks with half your plasma shots and let my infnatry eat you in CC. Or shot my infnatry and let my Tanks/Arty eat you.
Also another big flaw in your list is you can't counter enemy deepstrikers.
Check out my slow progressing work blog Vlka Fenryka
kinratha wrote: So this is more of a "Look at this awsome list I made that no one can beat" type of posts.
In all Honesty, my Average DKoK lists would laugh at this list. I'd just let you shoot my Infantry while I out range you with my Artillery. You'd be forced to drop all your squads outside of 12" of my Tanks/Arty. You'd be stuck with a choice, either shoot my tanks with half your plasma shots and let my infnatry eat you in CC. Or shot my infnatry and let my Tanks/Arty eat you.
Also another big flaw in your list is you can't counter enemy deepstrikers.
No it's not like that at all it's a genuine question to see the strengths and weaknesses of this list.
Your artillery is essentially useless in that even though it doesn't need line of sight they're all d6 shots hitting on 4s so you'll kill 3 or 4 mortar teams a turn tops and there's 18 of them. And if you take artillery with crews all the needs to go is the crew and the gun can't shoot anymore, easy to deepstrike closer to the crew so they can be targeted. You don't take moral tests for DKoK from shooting but your troops will still be rocking a 5+ save and could easily be wiped out by mortar fire over two turns with the platoon commanders, crusaders, yarrick blob making its way up the board towards your troops to hit in closecombat.
I don't have to deepstrike until turn 3 so by then there will be big enough holes to deepstrike blobs of 5 guys to shoot vehicles up. Even if I don't destroy them turn one they'll all cop stat damage as they lose wounds.
I don't need to counter enemy deepstrikers the bulk of my force is the scions and they'll be deepstriking themselves. The more they keep in deepstrike the less of a shield they're going to have so it helps me more if they put them in reserve. DKoK has some strong points against this list but won't wipe them by any means.
kinratha wrote: So this is more of a "Look at this awsome list I made that no one can beat" type of posts.
In all Honesty, my Average DKoK lists would laugh at this list. I'd just let you shoot my Infantry while I out range you with my Artillery. You'd be forced to drop all your squads outside of 12" of my Tanks/Arty. You'd be stuck with a choice, either shoot my tanks with half your plasma shots and let my infnatry eat you in CC. Or shot my infnatry and let my Tanks/Arty eat you.
Also another big flaw in your list is you can't counter enemy deepstrikers.
No it's not like that at all it's a genuine question to see the strengths and weaknesses of this list.
Your artillery is essentially useless in that even though it doesn't need line of sight they're all d6 shots hitting on 4s so you'll kill 3 or 4 mortar teams a turn tops and there's 18 of them. And if you take artillery with crews all the needs to go is the crew and the gun can't shoot anymore, easy to deepstrike closer to the crew so they can be targeted. You don't take moral tests for DKoK from shooting but your troops will still be rocking a 5+ save and could easily be wiped out by mortar fire over two turns with the platoon commanders, crusaders, yarrick blob making its way up the board towards your troops to hit in closecombat.
I don't have to deepstrike until turn 3 so by then there will be big enough holes to deepstrike blobs of 5 guys to shoot vehicles up. Even if I don't destroy them turn one they'll all cop stat damage as they lose wounds.
I don't need to counter enemy deepstrikers the bulk of my force is the scions and they'll be deepstriking themselves. The more they keep in deepstrike the less of a shield they're going to have so it helps me more if they put them in reserve. DKoK has some strong points against this list but won't wipe them by any means.
Rules for the Artillery crew is , unless I miss read it is: unless the crew is closer you must target the gun, so your str 4 mortars are going to have a hard time killing them, not to mention I can out range you. And if you think I'm going to leave a spot open for you to drop near my big guns, then you've never played anyone who knows how to bubblerap correctly. An you're really underestimating how many Earthshakers I can bring if you think I'm only killing 3-4 HWT a turn.
My Guardsmen my only have a 5+, but why wouldn't I be placing them in cover? It's compettitve so there's going to be a lot of terrain on the board. And I wouldn't put to much hope in yarrick, guard is the king of mass fire, and you'll end up rolling 1s.
I believe that you are overestimating the ability of this army list. The majority in the thread have already pointed out weaknesses in the list. In the end, everything looks better on paper, put it into practice and you'll quickly find your flaws.
Check out my slow progressing work blog Vlka Fenryka
I don't think you're grasping math, or even sane logic. You're literally arguing fighting hordes with plasma and heavy weapon squads. Run the math on how much plasma it will take to kill a single 10 man IG infantry squad or cultists in one shooting phase. Now I want you to count up how many points that is, and factor in the officers you have to take on top of that. You're going to be paying so much more than the infantry you're killing that it's hilarious. The alternative, your mortars, are incredibly fragile, easy to pick out, vulnerable to enemy deepstriking/indirects, and at best are killing what, 30 guardsmen a turn? Keep in mind that your shooting happens after your opportunity to drop. If I see a hole open up I don't like I just shift units around until it's gone. That's infantry 101 and against your list you can't kill enough to stop me, especially with orders like move!move!move!
The obvious counter, hold your guys off the table to wait for tanks to get clear, then means you're relying on what, 15 mortars and crusaders to clear over a hundred infantry in two turns? You cannot mathematically kill that much infantry with your list to fully shut down the screen even with perfect dice rolls and accounting for 0 zero return fire or movement. Not to mention the scouts sentinels turn 0 move, which you have no response to.
As for anti armor, yes, plasma can kill T8 vehicles in a pinch, but it desperately needs to be in rapid fire range to do so. Rerolling ones isn't even that important compared to the rapid fire and in your case additional shots on 6's. Your list lacks the tools necessary to break through a well thought out screen and kill the problem tanks in the same turn. Even with rerolling ones (which I'll be generous and give you Yarrick) rerolling failed wounds (Stormtroopers order) and 6's, you'd need to make an even trade, just in Stormtroopers, to knock out a Russ, not counting the points you spent on buffs, which is at least 40 extra since each command squad needs a prime. And it will be a trade, because I will have a ton of infantry running around which will murder any stormtrooper dumb enough to enter FRFSRF range.
This is ignoring how insanely fragile your list is, how incredibly predictable it is, and how much it absolutely relies on you getting lucky with matchups. I'm going to post one of my general Valhallan lists. Not even that great of one, but one that shuts down deepstriking armies with pretty consistent regularity. I want you to show me how you'd best it, because I'm genuinely curious at this point.
Because I really hope you're trolling us. I really do. This list I posted is a pretty meh list all things considered and it doesn't even have the toughness or respawning strats that chaos has, I'd be amazed to see you last 3 turns against proper cultist bomb. My list for example just scouts the sentinels forward, shifts my morale immune conscripts around until turn 3, and then I go into mop up mode. Your list has no way to hold objectives so once I've weathered your drops I will outnumber you and win the attrition war. Your deathstar of Yarrick and crusaders needs to brave an entire army of guard, most of whom have nothing better to shoot. If they even got to make an assault I'd be surprised.
You asked us our thoughts, we provided them. The list needs general troops, is far too specialized, and is outright illegal in many metas. I'm not even trying to one up you or anything in a "haha my list is better" way. I just think you're way too caught up in mathhammer and theorycrafting to see the issues you would face in a real game, especially in a competitive meta. Mathhammer and theorycrafting are incredibly important tools, but you have to remember they're part of a bigger picture, and cannot be used as a guaranteed prediction of how your games will go. Your idea in the OP is a classic example of that, being solely concerned with what you can do yet almost 0 consideration given to what your opponent can do.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Lanlaorn wrote: The detachment issue is pointless, he doesn't need to bring 5 Vanguards, he could do 2 Vanguard and a Supreme Command and have 11 HQ slots, 13 Elite slots.
Or, y'know, just bring a couple Battalions since Guard has great and cheap troops and go swimming in Command Points.
You're wrong here because you can only take command squad per prime PER detatchment. So you take 3 primes in a supreme you can only take 1 command squad.
Oh wow I need to double check that restriction. Could have swore it was one per tempestor but then again before this haven't been paying any attention to command squads. Good thing I learned this now before assembling too many special weapons Though I think I run into model count issue...
2xprime
command squad of 4 dudes
4 squads of 5 guys each
It’s not true that you can only have one officer and one squad per detachment.
The rule is that you can only have one command squad in a detachment for every prime in that detachment. You can have more than one prime in a detachment. You might have 3 in a battalion and then 3 command squads as HQs. Note that there are only two hq slots in a vanguard detachment though.
As for whether the army is good: prove it. Take the army to a tournament and see how you get on. But please note: you are not the first person to notice that scion plasma spam is efficient. It’s been tried before.
And incidentally, your plan against nids is out. You say you’d make him go first (how?) forcing him to drop his flyrants (nope). Even if he did have to drop his flyrants he could do it behind a wall of gaunts. Plasma is good against flyrants but devourer shots are good against scions too.
Firstly, as I've mentioned several times, you can't shoot mortars unless you can see them, and they shoot anything in 48" without needing to see what they're shooting, that's a very key point in this list. Artillery would do well to kill them off yes.
Secondly, you can only make your conscripts immune to morale if you get first turn psychic off. The 'Death Star' I'm bringing is so small in size they probably wouldn't be able to be seen at any point the way I'd move them, especially if I can move them to a position where they won't cop overwatch because they can't be seen but where I'm close enough to still make the charge.
Even if the plasma doesn't kill a vehicle there's 20 models deepstriking that can charge and once in combat you won't be able to shoot your artillery or tanks. As for objectives I have plenty of 20 point officers that can sit on them if they choose to, officers that can also make it into contact with vehicles to stop them from shooting, or tying up infantry so they can't get any other order off other than leave combat and fire.
I'm not saying I'm the first to smash out plasma spam, but it seems I'm the first to cut out the troops tax and only taking command squads with a Prime tax instead as an alternative
Not saying these lists being mentioned would crush this list or vice versa just trying to devise a list which is balanced to accommodate a lot of plasma because I just like running scions like that. I could reduce it to 8 primes and 8 plasma squads, deepstrike hotshot troops in to shoot up shields. Or take something else in the guard codex like missile teams that can shoot frag and krak, or even more mortar teams.
I can't run list in tournaments because its like 8 detachments, what I can do is run 1 battalion with 3 primes, 3 scions troops, 3 command sqauds. 1 vanguard with 2 primes 2 command squads and a third battalion with enough units to allow 13 deepstrikes, possibly more if I add more scion troops with hot shot las guns.
I haven't done the research on this 3 detachment list but I'd just want to get it to a point where it can, doesn't mean will, be competitive against pretty much anything you'd expect to see in a tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: It’s not true that you can only have one officer and one squad per detachment.
The rule is that you can only have one command squad in a detachment for every prime in that detachment. You can have more than one prime in a detachment. You might have 3 in a battalion and then 3 command squads as HQs. Note that there are only two hq slots in a vanguard detachment though.
As for whether the army is good: prove it. Take the army to a tournament and see how you get on. But please note: you are not the first person to notice that scion plasma spam is efficient. It’s been tried before.
And incidentally, your plan against nids is out. You say you’d make him go first (how?) forcing him to drop his flyrants (nope). Even if he did have to drop his flyrants he could do it behind a wall of gaunts. Plasma is good against flyrants but devourer shots are good against scions too.
What I meant was you can only have 1 command squad per officer but they have to be within the same detachment. You can't have 3 primes in a supreme command and then have 3 command squads in a vanguard because they're not part of the same detatchment.
As for the tyranids, if he rolls to go first and chooses to go second that's the only way I'll go first. If I win the roll off I'll go second. And I were to go first then that's just more shooting down of horde with mass mortars and I'll be able to deepstrike block flyrants from being in range of many of my tempestus squads using officers as deepstrike blockers and then just move my scions into plasma range turn 4 and shoot away.
Again not saying this list will do what I say it will do but on paper it seems a decent combination to fight low model count lists and horde lists IMO. Maybe take out some plasma squads and primes and add more anti horde I'll have to play test and see over the next few months
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 11:06:06
Tau could really mess with this list with a number of builds.
One being just mass firewarriors.
Ghostkeel heavy lists as your stuck with a -2 to hit on those with a 3+4++ save
Anything with ewo getting to unload on each unit as it deepstrikes.
