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So I'm looking at Baneblades varients, and am hoping for some feedback on several ideas.

1) The fireball. 10 Models can shoot out of a Banehammer. How about 2 Special weapon teams with flamers, and a Squad of vets with 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. aka 9 flamers and a Heavy Flamer.
The Banehammer can move and shoot, and the Crush them strategem makes them terrifying in CC.

2) The Cadian Strategem user. Take 1 Banehammer. Add 1 squad of vets with sniper rifles (3), 1 Company Command Squad with Sniper Rifles (4), and maybe a special weapon squad with 3 more Sniper Rifles.. The key to this is the sniper rifles successfully wound something, and then the rest of your army, perhaps bane hammer included gets to add 1 to hit it.

3) The why isn't anyone using a Trojan support vehicle? For 100 points, It gives a baneblade rerolls on all hit rolls. That seems kinda good.


I hear people complaining about baneblades getting shot off the table in 1 turn. I don't think I've ever run a list that could do this. I've seen lists that could do this, but they are so extremely rare. Most of the times I've seen baneblades die it is in assault. Is a properly screened baneblade varient a good bet in the current meta? If Dark Reapers take the nerf everyone expects will it be better off.

My current AM+SW list dishes out 38 damage on T8 3+ in one turn on average (without orders or stratagems). So even with poor rolling your Baneblade variant is going to be wrecked so hard if I go first.

 Weazel wrote:
My current AM+SW list dishes out 38 damage on T8 3+ in one turn on average (without orders or stratagems). So even with poor rolling your Baneblade variant is going to be wrecked so hard if I go first.

If I'm running a baneblade, you can count on a 2+ instead of a 3+ thanks to the Take Cover Strategem. If I get 1st turn, you can expect that to be -1 to hit as well from a psychic power (nightshroud). I can also theoretically add psychic barrier to get it to a 1+.

But to speak about it more practically. The meta is driven by Infantry. My Blood angels + Guard list (much more typical in the meta than Baneblades) would devastate you if you did decide to invest in 20 las cannons or whatever your shooting comes from. That sort of gunline just isn't effective in my experience in the modern meta.

Rather than saying who would do what why don't you just play it out on Vassal.

Take Cover stopped working on anything other than Guard infantry when the Codex FAQ came out in October.

As far as the topic more generally I think it gets very interesting if GW confirms that you can outflank non Tallarn infantry in an Ambushing transport. Otherwise you are paying a lot of points to protect inexpensive infantry. Maybe it works if you want to do a heavy weapons team bunker but I have not really seen that work in practice.

The support vehicles are just pumping more points into an already expensive platform and making it all the more painful a loss when it explodes.

Can't use take cover on vehicles any more (it got FAQed)

"Take Cover" has been erratad. It now only works on infantry, so cannot be used on baneblades.

My experience is that I can typically take out a baneblade on turn 1 easily enough, if I go first. If my opponent does then he'll cast psychic powers to give me -1 to hit and +1 saving throw to it, and my life gets a lot harder - plus of course the damn thing will have shot a bunch of stuff dead.

tag8833 wrote:

I hear people complaining about baneblades getting shot off the table in 1 turn. I don't think I've ever run a list that could do this. I've seen lists that could do this, but they are so extremely rare. Most of the times I've seen baneblades die it is in assault. Is a properly screened baneblade varient a good bet in the current meta? If Dark Reapers take the nerf everyone expects will it be better off.

I've done it with Inferno Seraphim, but given the range of those pistols a good screen would have saved him. My opponent chose mass assault over screening, but in general it should be an option.

Your flamer build might be good against a handful of armies, but flamers just don't deliver this ed... and that's coming from a Sisters player. Sniper rifles, maybe...

Shooting lots of lascannons and plasma incinerators at a baneblade kills it pretty reliably in my experience, or at least leaves very little of it working. I tend to bring around a dozen lascannons, between repulsors, planes, dreadnoughts and so on, and 10 hellblasters. Most of these will huddle around my captain and lieutenant.

I can typically drop a superheavy in a turn with average rolls, even outside of rapid fire range from the hellblasters. In my last game I took out Mortarion before he moved, for example, though one of the hellblaster units had got within 15" that time. But he's got a 4++ and a 5+++, which a baneblade hasn't.

Mandragola wrote:
Shooting lots of lascannons and plasma incinerators at a baneblade kills it pretty reliably in my experience, or at least leaves very little of it working. I tend to bring around a dozen lascannons, between repulsors, planes, dreadnoughts and so on, and 10 hellblasters. Most of these will huddle around my captain and lieutenant.

I can typically drop a superheavy in a turn with average rolls, even outside of rapid fire range from the hellblasters. In my last game I took out Mortarion before he moved, for example, though one of the hellblaster units had got within 15" that time. But he's got a 4++ and a 5+++, which a baneblade hasn't.

This is the exact issue, tournament players/lists are designed to bring down mortarion, and per codex magnus in a single turn a baneblade etc is't tougher to kill than those.

My Chaos opponents have wised up to my Baneblade shenanigans and usually brings 2-3 laspreds. Make short work of my BB for what seems like a fraction of its points.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
My Chaos opponents have wised up to my Baneblade shenanigans and usually brings 2-3 laspreds. Make short work of my BB for what seems like a fraction of its points.

3 Laspreds is 570 points. Hardly a "fraction". Also 3 Laspreds should not destroy a BB in one shooting phase. They cause 15.56 wounds on average on T8 3+. Unless they have some stratagems/reroll shenanigans.

Three would allow him use of kill shot and presumably he's running a lord or some other reroll charictor if he's bringing that many points of predators

Well anyway, all I'm saying is bringing 3 Predators and a character for rerolls is hardly a "fraction of cost".

I run a Baneblade company pretty routinely.

I can bank on at least 1 Baneblade being crippled or killed on Turn 1, unless I go first and get an opportunity to thin some of the AT. I've had it done by:

Space Marines (3 Predators with Killshot is merely one of a myriad ways; 10 Hellblasters is another).
Orks (3x12 tankbustas in trukks with bomb squigs - rolled up and PEWEPEWPEW. Left a tank on 5 wounds, iirc, and that was with the Bomb Squigs not being used because he forgot them. They knocked out the tank next turn).
Other Imperial Guard (heh)
Chaos (Killshot is surprisingly common, though again, if I get first turn, it's over. That's a recurring theme with superheavy tanks).
Genestealer Cult (with a shadowsword *rolleyes*)
Adeptus Mechanicus (Neutronagers what?)
Space Wolves (the Stormfang Gunship, I believe? Locally we call it "the flying fridge" so whatever that is.)
Blood Angels (a billion angry Death Company, after baiting out "defensive gunners" on another vehicle)

....I think that's it.

And on the other hand, if I go first, most of those aren't problems. So you're banking a lot on that roll if you invest in a Baneblade. It's why Trojans aren't good - sure, you can play +100 points to make a Baneblade Re-Roll, but now it's a 650-point deadweight when it gets instantly annihilated, rather than a 550-pt one. (numbers rounded)

How orks did that? Shouldn't even take to half wounds. Oh and 12 plus squigs don'' fit to truck

tneva82 wrote:
How orks did that? Shouldn't even take to half wounds. Oh and 12 plus squigs don'' fit to truck

3x12 = 36 shots, 12 hits. Re-rolls from the other 24 gives 8 hits, so 20 hits total. 10 wounds. 5+ save, 7 wounds. 21 damage. 5 wounds remaining, on average, without any bomb squigs being used. So it's actually exactly average that it takes a Baneblade to 5 wounds.

And I didn't know about that; he said the bomb squigs don't count or something (like they were wargear). I'll ask him next time.

The fact that I can't use "Take Cover" on the baneblade more or less blew up most of my theory, but this post is exactly what I was hoping for. A little insight from someone with extensive table time. I'd like to chat about a few of these matchups/ opponent lists.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I run a Baneblade company pretty routinely.
Space Marines (3 Predators with Killshot is merely one of a myriad ways; 10 Hellblasters is another).

The Predators can do it. Though 10 Hellblasters should be out of range to rapidfire on T1. So it's probably more like 10-15 damage at best.

If it makes you feel better, I've yet to lose to a 3 predator list this edition (around 8-0). My armies tend to have no problem tagging them in cc. I'd think Marines + Guard would be a good way to go so that you can screen them, but I've never faced marines + guard featuring preds.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orks (3x12 tankbustas in trukks with bomb squigs - rolled up and PEWEPEWPEW. Left a tank on 5 wounds, iirc, and that was with the Bomb Squigs not being used because he forgot them. They knocked out the tank next turn).

I play orks a bunch. That is a pretty unbalanced list in the modern meta. I've come to feel like 24 Tankbustas is as many as you want to field and have a chance against an infantry based army. Also if you've got 12 tankbustas in a trukk, no room for bomb squigs in there (they take a transport spot).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Blood Angels (a billion angry Death Company, after baiting out "defensive gunners" on another vehicle)

This is my current tourney army (BA Death Company). Screening should make sure that you are more or less immune from DC on turn 1. They will get you come turn 2, but on turn 1 you should be fine. Just 2-3 scout sentinels, and they can't even deep strike in range.


So Baneblade is roughly the same cost as a tank commander + 2 lemun russes. A lot of those armies can kill 2, and crippler the 3rd russ as well. Does it mean IG tanks are more or less a bad way to go unless you go 1st?

tag8833 wrote:
The fact that I can't use "Take Cover" on the baneblade more or less blew up most of my theory, but this post is exactly what I was hoping for. A little insight from someone with extensive table time. I'd like to chat about a few of these matchups/ opponent lists.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I run a Baneblade company pretty routinely.
Space Marines (3 Predators with Killshot is merely one of a myriad ways; 10 Hellblasters is another).

The Predators can do it. Though 10 Hellblasters should be out of range to rapidfire on T1. So it's probably more like 10-15 damage at best.

If it makes you feel better, I've yet to lose to a 3 predator list this edition (around 8-0). My armies tend to have no problem tagging them in cc. I'd think Marines + Guard would be a good way to go so that you can screen them, but I've never faced marines + guard featuring preds.

The 3 preds that have one-shot my tanks have done it on the first turn before I have a chance to go. I actually typically win the games, because my two other superheavies only need to kill 1 predator between them to breakup the Killshot stratagem (so I don't usually lose the game), but it's why I stopped running single, solitary Baneblades. If I actually want to use the tank, I have to bring more than 1, because 1 has a 50/50 (well, first turn-roll off + sieze) chance of getting instantly deleted before I can do much about it.

tag8833 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orks (3x12 tankbustas in trukks with bomb squigs - rolled up and PEWEPEWPEW. Left a tank on 5 wounds, iirc, and that was with the Bomb Squigs not being used because he forgot them. They knocked out the tank next turn).

I play orks a bunch. That is a pretty unbalanced list in the modern meta. I've come to feel like 24 Tankbustas is as many as you want to field and have a chance against an infantry based army. Also if you've got 12 tankbustas in a trukk, no room for bomb squigs in there (they take a transport spot).

I didn't know Bomb Squigs took up a slot, so I'll take that up with the ork player if it comes up again. As for the unbalancedness... *Shrug* I don't write people's lists for them. It's what he brought. With luck, you won't have to worry - but it happened.

tag8833 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Blood Angels (a billion angry Death Company, after baiting out "defensive gunners" on another vehicle)

This is my current tourney army (BA Death Company). Screening should make sure that you are more or less immune from DC on turn 1. They will get you come turn 2, but on turn 1 you should be fine. Just 2-3 scout sentinels, and they can't even deep strike in range.

I usually can't afford scout sentinels with everything I want in the army as well - usually what happens is they DS ~12" away (given that Baneblades are 9" long or so and I put a screen of guardsmen at the front of my DZ) and then the guardsmen get shot to tiny tiny pieces, or at least shot enough that there's space for the DC to get in. Then, my opponent charges both the tank and the squad (declaring them both as targets) which means that, if he reaches the squad (ez pz) he can then reach the Baneblade with the very very very clever maneuvering shenanigans some people can do in the assault phase, which I'm sure you've seen guides on / heard about / do yourself.

I could always turn the baneblades sideways when I deploy them of course, and I would in a tournament (terrain permitting; it's not always possible), but in a friendly game? That looks very silly to me.

tag8833 wrote:
So Baneblade is roughly the same cost as a tank commander + 2 lemun russes. A lot of those armies can kill 2, and crippler the 3rd russ as well. Does it mean IG tanks are more or less a bad way to go unless you go 1st?

The issue is not that they can or cannot kill 2 and cripple the third - the issue is that things like Kill Shot only work on 1 target, so really, they can ANNIHILATE a Russ - otherwise, the 3 preds will all have to fire at a single tank or they won't kill it on average (about 5 wounds per quad las pred on average without killshot). Furthermore, Russes are MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to hide than Baneblades. Like, dramatically so. They're easier to protect, that's a fact. You can put thicker screens around them, too, because of deployment zone space. Also, you actually get more firepower from the Russes - 6d6 battlecannon shots, 2d6 of them hitting on a 3+, is nothing to sneeze at, especially since you can use the Tank Commander to give them orders. The Leman Russes also get Objective Secured if they're in a Spearhead detachment (which is a point, even if it's of questionable utility). Lastly, a single russ is less threatening than a single Baneblade, so it feths with enemy targeting. If there's a big, obvious LOW on the field, the enemy will think "GOTTA KILL THAT" even if it's not true (I use this to my advantage when I play, deliberately misplacing a single baneblade to make it look like easy meat, so the enemy overcommits to killing it and then gets trounced by its friends). Russes will provoke less of a reaction, for better or worse.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How orks did that? Shouldn't even take to half wounds. Oh and 12 plus squigs don'' fit to truck

3x12 = 36 shots, 12 hits. Re-rolls from the other 24 gives 8 hits, so 20 hits total. 10 wounds. 5+ save, 7 wounds. 21 damage. 5 wounds remaining, on average, without any bomb squigs being used. So it's actually exactly average that it takes a Baneblade to 5 wounds.

And I didn't know about that; he said the bomb squigs don't count or something (like they were wargear). I'll ask him next time.

Ah forgot reroll. Still 870pts minimum clearly list tailored vs you. And had you got first turn he lose. As it is spending more than cost of baneblade to not even one shot in average and being screwed if goes second isn't bad deal to ig. If anything shows how bad orks are atm

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
How orks did that? Shouldn't even take to half wounds. Oh and 12 plus squigs don'' fit to truck

3x12 = 36 shots, 12 hits. Re-rolls from the other 24 gives 8 hits, so 20 hits total. 10 wounds. 5+ save, 7 wounds. 21 damage. 5 wounds remaining, on average, without any bomb squigs being used. So it's actually exactly average that it takes a Baneblade to 5 wounds.

And I didn't know about that; he said the bomb squigs don't count or something (like they were wargear). I'll ask him next time.

Ah forgot reroll. Still 870pts minimum clearly list tailored vs you. And had you got first turn he lose. As it is spending more than cost of baneblade to not even one shot in average and being screwed if goes second isn't bad deal to ig. If anything shows how bad orks are atm

*shrug* Just here to deliver information on what has crippled my superheavies Turn 1, not go into deep analysis of the meaning behind it. I'll leave that to you! So far, good job!

EDIT:
I will say that 870 points is actually really cheap. I'm a firm believer in the idea that one should need about a 3-1 advantage (2-1, maybe, if you're super specialized like tankbustas) in points to instantly delete a thing in one turn on average. The idea that 500 points should be able to kill another 500 points in one-turn is how we get escalating lethality to the point where 1st turn is the only turn - after all, if my 2k can kill its equivalent points in 1 turn, then....

We are talking about mega specialized unit that's also super vulnerable. They don't GET second round to shoot. Also outside vehicles they are also hardly useful. So if opponent doesn't bring half the army in tanks you are in trouble as they will get wiped out without archieving much. They pay their nose for the shooting power while being made out of wet paper. If orks go second they basically are playing against twice the army they have left after these wet towels are taken out.

tneva82 wrote:
We are talking about mega specialized unit that's also super vulnerable. They don't GET second round to shoot. Also outside vehicles they are also hardly useful. So if opponent doesn't bring half the army in tanks you are in trouble as they will get wiped out without archieving much. They pay their nose for the shooting power while being made out of wet paper. If orks go second they basically are playing against twice the army they have left after these wet towels are taken out.

Which is just more evidence of the problem. The lethality of the game is so high that even with a 2-1 points advantage required, an army can still kill half of the enemy army before it replies. Lethality needs to go down, not up.