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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Hi, our gaming group our first tournament in which each game has a 3 hour time limit.

Within our gaming group we play normally but rarely finish our games in that time limit, especially when you include deployment. I don't think we are particularly slow thinkers, or slow players but I have concerns that we won't finish our games in time. Do people normally finish 5/6 turn games in this time limit or is this not something I should be concerned about?
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

That kind of depends on what size games you're playing...

   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





dragonelf wrote:
Hi, our gaming group our first tournament in which each game has a 3 hour time limit.

Within our gaming group we play normally but rarely finish our games in that time limit, especially when you include deployment. I don't think we are particularly slow thinkers, or slow players but I have concerns that we won't finish our games in time. Do people normally finish 5/6 turn games in this time limit or is this not something I should be concerned about?
Yes you should be able to complete a game in that time if both sides play at a good speed. But its perfectly normal to not manage this because when playing at a club with friends you don't think about it.

The best thing you can do is train for it.
Know your rules is obviously a big one. Not having to look things up saves a lot of time (tho if your unsure about something you should look rather then do it wrong ^^).
Think during your opponents turn is another big time saver. You should have the basic structure of your turn ready in your head when its your turn again (this moves there to capture that, that unit needs to die so i'll shoot this and this at it and then maybe that if its still alive ect).
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Well, it's a hot and controversial topic these days.

It used to be normal, that not all games at tournaments would go the full length. When 40K moved to 8th Ed. and points for most standard tournaments changed from 1750/1850 to 2000 points, this became seemingly more frequent (partly, I suppose, because the promise that 8th would play faster didn't quite pan out that way AFTER considering how lists/tactics changed from 7th to 8th).

Than came the "slow play" debate, which formally was referring to intentionally stalling the game for a game advantage, but has become a muddle catch-all term that refers to a vague entitlement to always finish all games no matter what, often (not always, but with alarming frequency) including fast-rolling dice, sloppy fast-moving of models and fast-talking/bullying your opponent through "theoretical final turns" towards the end, where cheaters claim points for "how the turn would've gone".

   
Made in nl
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



Somewhere around fenris

In 8th I have seen 2 things happen in tournaments either some 1 gets wiped in 2 hours or the TO shuts down the game as nothing died and 3 hours had passed

there are always slowplayers and sometimes they obviously try to stall. Just speed up your own game and make shure you know your grand plan before you need to actually need to move any models
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept




United Kingdom

The tournament I played in yesterday allowed 2.5 hours per 2,000 point game, with a 15 minute break between games. I didn't notice any issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 13:00:34


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.

As I said, practice. The more you play the faster you can play.

   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.

As I said, practice. The more you play the faster you can play.



Maybe. But tournaments and other organised play events tend to be where people play who don't have a regular group, club or nearby FLGS. While there are the tournament addicts on one end, it also tends to be a hub for people who play less regular than most people.

As long as the event doesn't have an explicit qualifier and/or encourages "casuals" to attend (as Adepticon, LVO, etc.. all do), the default expectation should be slower-than-club/regular-pals-games, not faster, with the possible exception of the higher placed tables towards the later rounds.

That's not "slow play". That's just the reality of the game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 13:28:43


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.

As I said, practice. The more you play the faster you can play.



Maybe. But tournaments and other organised play events tend to be where people play who don't have a regular group, club or nearby FLGS. While there are the tournament addicts on one end, it also tends to be a hub for people who play less regular than most people.

As long as the event doesn't have an explicit qualifier and/or encourages "casuals" to attend (as Adepticon, LVO, etc.. all do), the default expectation should be slower-than-club/regular-pals-games, not faster, with the possible exception of the higher placed tables towards the later rounds.

That's not "slow play". That's just the reality of the game.
Does any other game in the world run its tournaments based on that?
Why should 40k do what no one else ever does?
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
Does any other game in the world run its tournaments based on that?
Why should 40k do what no one else ever does?


Most other games tier their games, have qualifiers for events, limited access, etc... Chess & co. have different leagues and levels to ensure people of similar skill match up. A once-a-year-player wanting to have a fun weekend of playing chess will never face the US or German reigning champion at an organised event. Dad and his 12-year old son looking for a weekend game of Football will never face Manchester United, etc.. .

The same is not true for 40K. I don't know why 40K does it the way it does.

I just know that conventions and organizers mostly explicitly encourage hobbyists of all ranges to attend.

There might well be a market for more closed, more e-sport or pro competition events where everybody is in it for a purely competitive experience. But I am no tournament organisers. As the reality is at the moment, the tournaments, especially the large and well-known ones are open to everybody and advertised as fun-days/weekends for everyone to have fun rolling some dice if they want to, no qualifiers what so ever.

If Dad & his 12-year old son playing 40K for the first time are invited to come and you're willing to take their money, they have as much right to a good weekend as the current ITC or ETC champion they face across the table.



This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 13:57:17


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Because Football or Chess are massive on a scale that Warhammer cannot even comprehend?
Who is going to spend the money to set up tiered systems like those have?

Take Magic the Gathering. Nothing stops me from signing up to a GP to have a fun time and run into the world champion. Or go to fun friday nights tournament and run into a pro player.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




That's fine. A MTG tournament doesn't expect you to play faster than a first-time player could, and neither must an open-for-all-40K tournament.

If I am intentionally slow-playing, call a TO.

If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Sunny Side Up wrote:
That's fine. A MTG tournament doesn't expect you to play faster than a first-time player could, and neither must an open-for-all-40K tournament.

If I am intentionally slow-playing, call a TO.

If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.
Ehm, Magic has a round limit. Same as Warhammer. You are expected to play at a pace where you can finish your game in the allotted time, same as for Warhammer.

And i'm pretty sure you can run into time problems if you have to read every card like a first-time player would.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 14:14:55


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Fair enough. If you can finish playing correctly in time, all is good.

Just saying that my experience has been people losing sight of a lot of other „expected-to-do“ things in the name of must-play-six turns-always, notably transparent dice-rolling and re-rolling, making sure your opponent knows what is rolled for at any given moment and can verify dice-results at all times, correctly measuring movement (charges, pile-ins, etc.. ) at all times, making sure your opponent can verify measurements at all times, refusing to present/explain your opponent rules to your army, which you must provide, badgering/bullying your opponent into free tournament points by „theory-quick-playing“ hypothetical turns you didn’t actually play out in detail,, etc..

Any failure to do so should, if in doubt, be considered an attempt at cheating and potentially lead to disqualification if „slow play“ is similarly penalised.

Most people probably have no issue there, but the rotten apples trying to exploit the „slow-play-debate“ by these and other means are out there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 14:32:42


 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Sunny Side Up wrote:
Fair enough. If you can finish playing correctly in time, all is good.

Just saying that my experience has been people losing sight of a lot of other „expected-to-do“ things in the name of must-play-six turns-always, notably transparent dice-rolling and re-rolling, making sure your opponent knows what is rolled for at any given moment and can verify dice-results at all times, correctly measuring movement (charges, pile-ins, etc.. ) at all times, making sure your opponent can verify measurements at all times, refusing to present/explain your opponent rules to your army, which you must provide, badgering/bullying your opponent into free tournament points by „theory-quick-playing“ hypothetical turns you didn’t actually play out in detail,, etc..

Any failure to do so should, if in doubt, be considered an attempt at cheating and potentially lead to disqualification if „slow play“ is similarly penalised.

Most people probably have no issue there, but the rotten apples trying to exploit the „slow-play-debate“ by these and other means are out there.
I 100% agree, playing at a good pace does not mean you have to stop playing transparently..
"This unit shoots at this unit, 12 shots hitting on 3's", roll dice, remove misses. Wait 2 seconds so opponent can see the hits, "wounding on 4's" roll dice, ect ect.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

It's fairly easy to be transparent while still being fast.

For example, lets say I attack with 20 Daemonettes. I mention the special rules I have while I count out the 61 dice (e.g. "they're near a herald so str 4, the enemy unit is near the masque so they're hitting on 2+, etc).

Then, I roll the 61 dice, expecting ~10 misses. I pick up the 10 dice, allowing my opponent to survey the hits while I pick up the misses. That will let him catch ones that I do not. I never pick up the hits until I have completely finished rolling (after re-rolls etc) and pulling misses. This usually lets my opponent survey the hits fairly quickly.

Then, I simply pick up the hit dice and roll them again to wound. I know some people like to switch dice because of superstition or something, but it's much faster just to have another go with the hits, then remove the dice that failed to wound, once again leaving the successes to be surveyed.

The only times I hesitate are times when the average is broken in my favor, so if they make me take 15 5+ saves and I roll something like 7 or more, then I'll verbally confirm with them that they see 7 saves. Otherwise I assume they are watching my dice and will call out anything they see amiss (because I do make mistakes).

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Texas

I've done a few tourneys locally, most are 2.5 hour games with 15 mins in between at 2k.

I find the list make an impact on the speed. If you have to armies that run MSU, then you are going to get a full 6 turns, if you have Orcs and Nids fighting horde army vs horde army, you may get through two turns.

I use movement trays, and while that helps to an extent, the dice counting is what slows things down.

Sometimes I will have different piles of dice for each unit.

So I will put 60 dice for the hormies, or 90 dice for the devilgaunts.... but then they start killing them so I have to pull dice out. Add in that I get reroll 1's. it begins to take its toll. Best you can do, is know your list, know the rules, and think ahead. The dice rolls and movement will take time.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes, a lot depends on the lists and on the matchup.

I can play my nid swarm turn in 10 min easily against Tau, but need close to 30 min against Dark Angels. The number of interactions that you have with the opponent really has a big impact.

In general, i find that playing at 1500 is just better for everyone, if time is an issue.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Sunny Side Up wrote:
If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.


I'm sure you're very a important person such that your enjoyment is the sole focus of the event. Other people eh, they ought to be honored just to have met you.

"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 ruminator wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.


I'm sure you're very a important person such that your enjoyment is the sole focus of the event. Other people eh, they ought to be honored just to have met you.


Again, it's about how you set up and market the event.

If you only want people that have at least 100 games of 40K under their belt, than state that in the tournament rules, hold qualifiers, etc..

If, like Adepticon, LVO, etc.., you actively and explicitly market and encourage hobbyists of all walks of life to attend, including 1st time hobbyists, kids, etc.., you cannot first take their money and than turn on them with "should've practiced".

I am all for "raising the standard" if that is what you want for a hardcore competitive tournament, but that needs to happen at the point of who is allowed to attend and who isn't, not once they paid the entry fee and stand at the table with the models out of the bag.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Philadelphia

I think some tournament time formats are better than others.

A blanket time limit means games will have to end at a certain time, but that time will likely be dominated by either slow players or people with massive armies.

I prefer when two players are given half the time and there's some kind of penalty for going over your time limit - either losing points or giving points to your opponent for every activation/turn past your allocated time, or even game loss.

I sort of miss playing on the clock in certain games. It added an edge of excitement, and both shook players out of analysis paralysis and forced them to actually think ahead during their opponents turn, instead of just tuning out and then coming back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/10 13:35:07


   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Sunny Side Up wrote:
 ruminator wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.


I'm sure you're very a important person such that your enjoyment is the sole focus of the event. Other people eh, they ought to be honored just to have met you.


Again, it's about how you set up and market the event.

If you only want people that have at least 100 games of 40K under their belt, than state that in the tournament rules, hold qualifiers, etc..

If, like Adepticon, LVO, etc.., you actively and explicitly market and encourage hobbyists of all walks of life to attend, including 1st time hobbyists, kids, etc.., you cannot first take their money and than turn on them with "should've practiced".

I am all for "raising the standard" if that is what you want for a hardcore competitive tournament, but that needs to happen at the point of who is allowed to attend and who isn't, not once they paid the entry fee and stand at the table with the models out of the bag.


That's not what you said. You were quite specific in that if you play slow as you're inexperienced then it's tough luck on the other person and you have no responsibility for ensuring the other person enjoys the game as well. The concept of a social contract in both players enjoying the game seems an alien concept to you.


"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block



Shropshire UK

Chess clocks, will force the large army's to think about how to speed their play up.

its used in kings of war for stopping slow play. be interesting to see if ever used for 40k

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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 ruminator wrote:


That's not what you said. You were quite specific in that if you play slow as you're inexperienced then it's tough luck on the other person and you have no responsibility for ensuring the other person enjoys the game as well. The concept of a social contract in both players enjoying the game seems an alien concept to you.



I did use an fictitious/hypothetical first person for both examples, yes. The quote:

If I am intentionally slow-playing, call a TO.

If I am just new to the game, need to look up rules, ask questions about your units and ultimately only get through one turn in 3 hours, tough luck. That's just how 40K goes sometimes.


I was highlighting two extreme examples to illustrate a distinction between them. The half-quote you quoted misses the point, which was the differentiation between the first and the second line as extreme points on the spectrum that are not alike, but are falsely both labeled "slow play" by cheaters who try to get an advantage by labelling any kind of not-super-efficient-gaming as fraudulent "slow play".

Social contract is fine. The point is that no social contract can ensure people - new players being the obvious example (and there are others, complicated armies, etc..) can force everyone to end a game on time.

If the reason games aren't finished on time isn't intentional, fraudulent stalling, but simply slower-than-you-would-want-gaming for non-fraudulent reasons (including inexperience or the nature of the game of 40K), it cannot be grounds for TO discipline. You may feel the social contract broken, but there is no violation of tournament rules for cheating. And the social contract also goes both ways. You should accommodate newbies to the hobby in a public event open to newbies and not expect to play games as fast or hard or efficient as you do with regular pals at the club or your garage/man-cave.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/10 19:13:49


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

2.5 is on the short side IMO. The events I run are at 2:45 and 3 is a little on the long side. Part of it is familiarity with the format (these change constantly for most people) and getting started on time. 3 Should get both players to the end of 4 or 5 for sure.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.


If you're going to set a 3 hour time limit, why not drop the point total to 1500? I've also heard talk bandied about of their being penalties for non-completion, like -x tournament points for both players if a game isn't completed. Playing at a reasonable point level that shouldn't leave people sweating hard for time, and if need be, an appreciable penalty for not completing the game (or turn 4, 5, whatever you want to say must be completed) seems like the way to go.

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Dominating Dominatrix






Southeastern PA, USA

 Bookwrack wrote:
dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.


If you're going to set a 3 hour time limit, why not drop the point total to 1500? I've also heard talk bandied about of their being penalties for non-completion, like -x tournament points for both players if a game isn't completed. Playing at a reasonable point level that shouldn't leave people sweating hard for time, and if need be, an appreciable penalty for not completing the game (or turn 4, 5, whatever you want to say must be completed) seems like the way to go.


That's what any filthy casual player would do, right? "Hey, I only have a couple hours, let's play at 1500." It's the obvious, natural way that one regulates the commitment level of a given game of 40K.

But tourney players want to bring all their toys. And so the community wrangles with various distortions of the game (chess clocks, etc.) to try to make that possible. Yes, it's backwards, but it's also consistent with all the backwardness involved with trying to turn Warhammer 40K into a pro sport.


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 gorgon wrote:
 Bookwrack wrote:
dragonelf wrote:
we are playing 2000 points games, and we usually take around 4 hours to finish our games in our group, I struggle to imagine myself deploying and finishing 5-6 rounds in three hours.


If you're going to set a 3 hour time limit, why not drop the point total to 1500? I've also heard talk bandied about of their being penalties for non-completion, like -x tournament points for both players if a game isn't completed. Playing at a reasonable point level that shouldn't leave people sweating hard for time, and if need be, an appreciable penalty for not completing the game (or turn 4, 5, whatever you want to say must be completed) seems like the way to go.


That's what any filthy casual player would do, right? "Hey, I only have a couple hours, let's play at 1500." It's the obvious, natural way that one regulates the commitment level of a given game of 40K.

But tourney players want to bring all their toys. And so the community wrangles with various distortions of the game (chess clocks, etc.) to try to make that possible. Yes, it's backwards, but it's also consistent with all the backwardness involved with trying to turn Warhammer 40K into a pro sport.



Uhh, it's also necessary for some armies. Your condescension aside.

Imperial Knights are vastly different in 2,000 Vs. 1,500 (fielding 2 knights and 1/2 armigers vs. 3-4 knights or many armigers). Custodes are vastly different in 2,000 Vs. 1,500 (one Outrider detachment is 970ish). Grey Knights too (GMDK's are a good 235 a pop, even basic troops are 105 minimum).

Sure, them Orks and even Space Marines might not be that different, but 1,500 severely handicaps some armies. It's at 2,000 for a good reason.
   
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Norfolk, VA

 gorgon wrote:

That's what any filthy casual player would do, right? "Hey, I only have a couple hours, let's play at 1500." It's the obvious, natural way that one regulates the commitment level of a given game of 40K.

But tourney players want to bring all their toys. And so the community wrangles with various distortions of the game (chess clocks, etc.) to try to make that possible. Yes, it's backwards, but it's also consistent with all the backwardness involved with trying to turn Warhammer 40K into a pro sport.

Based on a couple podcasts and blogs I've seen, 2000 points seems to be pushed less by the "tourney players" and more by the retailers that also happen to host tournaments (e.g. Frontline Gaming and Games Workshop).

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
 
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