Switch Theme:

..lalalallalala  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in dk
Regular Dakkanaut




Forget everything after good morning! Feverish ravings!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 14:41:44


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Space Marines just got an entirely new line of stuff that CSM doesn't get access to, so... I have no idea what you're talking about.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





HexHammer wrote:
I'm tired of this usual mantra, that everything SM has CSM has it too, which leaves SM as kinda the underdog and GW solves it by buffing this and that too much, instead of giving them something to supplement their army.

SM should have unique units especially since CSM has so many unique units themselves.

8ed lore was made very unthoughtful since they could say that many of the new units was made post heresy, but deemed <insert inquisitorial reasons> so they were put on hold, but here with Smurf B0i talking to his daddy, the models were reinstated, that imo would be more of an elegant reasoning.



umm.., wut?
space marines have TONS of units chaos does not have. I mean you have the entire primaris line, the land raider varients, razorbacks, all the fliers,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Space Marines just got an entirely new line of stuff that CSM doesn't get access to, so... I have no idea what you're talking about.


my guess is maybe he's responding to chaos player exclaimations of "when can we have chaos primaris? where are there no chaos razorbacks?" etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 08:04:14


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Attack Bikes, Stormhawk, Stormtalon, Stormraven, Centurions, Repulsor, Redemptor, Venereable Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, ALL OF PRIMARIS.

Just some of what SM has that CSM doesn't.
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






But Space Marines dont have bloodthirsters!!! MEH!

6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in nl
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



Somewhere around fenris

I belive it more that he talks about the chaos player mindset:
Marines gets new model -> Chaos marine players yelling that they should get is as well as all loyal goes traitor 2 weeks in...

But oddly enough you never heard a loyalist complain we need plague marines becouse they used to be loyalists...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 09:41:10


 
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

No when chaos players get something good you loyalist scum cry for it to be nerfed when arguably you have more broken stuff that we do case in point rowberta girlyman
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





odin wrote:
I belive it more that he talks about the chaos player mindset:
Marines gets new model -> Chaos marine players yelling that they should get is as well as all loyal goes traitor 2 weeks in...

But oddly enough you never heard a loyalist complain we need plague marines becouse they used to be loyalists...


This is odd because in my experience exactly the opposite is true

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No when chaos players get something good you loyalist scum cry for it to be nerfed when arguably you have more broken stuff that we do case in point rowberta girlyman


I'll see your girlyman with Magnus. The man who can wipe out entire units with just a thought.
   
Made in nl
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



Somewhere around fenris

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No when chaos players get something good you loyalist scum cry for it to be nerfed when arguably you have more broken stuff that we do case in point rowberta girlyman

I see your rowboat with:
Magnus
Morty
20+ poxwalkers
Do I need to go on ?

Codex marines is gak becouse of rowboat not in spite of him

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 12:42:43


 
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

odin wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No when chaos players get something good you loyalist scum cry for it to be nerfed when arguably you have more broken stuff that we do case in point rowberta girlyman

I see your rowboat with:
Magnus
Morty
20+ poxwalkers
Do I need to go on ?

Codex marines is gak becouse of rowboat not in spite of him

Im on about Codex Chaos Space Marines not cpdex Aids Carriers or Codex Harry potter
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I suppose I'm the opposite. I'd prefer the CSM and Marines to have even more difference in their codices - that's the entire point of having different armies.

I admit I'd have rather seen CSM re-envisioned with far more Horus Heresy era-kits, as opposed to random modern stuff.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

odin wrote:I belive it more that he talks about the chaos player mindset:
Marines gets new model -> Chaos marine players yelling that they should get is as well as all loyal goes traitor 2 weeks in...

But oddly enough you never heard a loyalist complain we need plague marines becouse they used to be loyalists...

How many CSM players actually want Primaris CSM? I know I certainly don't want them and I don't know of a Chaos player that does.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
No when chaos players get something good you loyalist scum cry for it to be nerfed when arguably you have more broken stuff that we do case in point rowberta girlyman


I'll see your girlyman with Magnus. The man who can wipe out entire units with just a thought.

^This guy thinks Magnus is anywhere near as good as Guilliman.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in ie
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Kildare, Ireland

HexHammer wrote:
I'm tired of this usual mantra, that everything SM has CSM has it too, which leaves SM as kinda the underdog and GW solves it by buffing this and that too much, instead of giving them something to supplement their army.

SM should have unique units especially since CSM has so many unique units themselves.

8ed lore was made very unthoughtful since they could say that many of the new units was made post heresy, but deemed <insert inquisitorial reasons> so they were put on hold, but here with Smurf B0i talking to his daddy, the models were reinstated, that imo would be more of an elegant reasoning.


On the off chance this isn't a troll post, here we go.

Many listed 'units' in a CSM codex are actually listed 'factions'.
a CSM warband represents:

  • A company or chapter from the original traitor legions, stepping through the mists of time - due to the warp, only decades have passed for them.

  • Corrupted shattered legionnaires who have lived centuries or millenia in hell, being physically and spiritually remade, just as their command structure deteriorates to champions seizing power rather than appointed military leaders.

  • Freshly turned renegade companies or chapters, corrupted or otherwise

  • The products of the dark forges and their guardians


  • Alternatively, in its most basic form- it can contain a mix of all of the above.

    It fails miserably to adequately capture all of these things. If loyalists were fielded like a warband, you could have Ultramarines captains leading Iron hand terminators and Whitescar bikers. It just doesn't gel like a cohesive army.

    Should CSM have Primaris? No. Should they have equivalent? Maybe. The problem is that in trying to represent so many things and factions and styles of army, it doesn't do very well at any.

    Are they poorly supplied renegades? Where are the options for stubbers, shotguns and other scrounged weaponry?
    Are they a horde of ill disciplined rabble in power armour? Need a cheaper basic troop
    Are they chaos knights in 40k- millenia old cream of the crop? Need veterans with better than basic marine stats
    Are they legionnaires still? Where are the legion style formations?

    While its understandable that loyalists don't get rubric marines or defilers, the inverse is harder to explain.
    Why haven't the Iron warriors added lascannons to a troop carrier yet?
    When did the last traitor landspeeder break down and why have none been looted since?
    Drop pods.
    Grav.
    Stormravens are a model that fill a role previously left in the background(or FW) rather than in codexes, like the thunderhawk or argus lifter. They may be loyalist exclusive but the role still exists for chaos forces.

    In the past, army lists were themed to an extent- Grey Knights had no rhinos, to produce a foot army, Templars had no devastators or whirlwinds to theme them further to close assault. Chaos has been handed the 'no new equipment theme' (no matter how poorly it fits the background) to differentiate them from loyalists. Loyalists have had units cribbed from the CSM and improved(centurions) with whole new vehicles and unit types added whole cloth.

    SM are not the underdog.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 12:57:03


     
       
    Made in us
    Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





    There's also the factor that before 8th, SM had several different SM books to itself which is now only being rectified in 7th to 8th with CSM finally expanding itself outwards.
       
    Made in nl
    Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



    Somewhere around fenris

     mrhappyface wrote:

    How many CSM players actually want Primaris CSM? I know I certainly don't want them and I don't know of a Chaos player that does.


    Just look at =Angel= according to him CSM should have all equipment loyalist have as 90% of traitors were loyalist and they would take all of their gear while logicly it makese sense but we know its 40k nothing makes sense..

       
    Made in us
    Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






    =Angel=, did you just say Centurions are an "improved" version of Obliterators?

    If so, can I have some of what you're having?

    "Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

    "So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

    "you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

    "...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
       
    Made in gb
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





    Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

    odin wrote:
     mrhappyface wrote:

    How many CSM players actually want Primaris CSM? I know I certainly don't want them and I don't know of a Chaos player that does.


    Just look at =Angel= according to him CSM should have all equipment loyalist have as 90% of traitors were loyalist and they would take all of their gear while logicly it makese sense but we know its 40k nothing makes sense..


    I think you should re-read his post and put all of that straw away.

    Ghorros wrote:
    The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
     Marmatag wrote:
    All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
     
       
    Made in nl
    Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



    Somewhere around fenris

    Read his post and reread it unless my englishfu decieves me this seems to sum up his post for me
     =Angel= wrote:

    Should CSM have Primaris? No. Should they have equivalent? Maybe.


    In my eyes I do not see a good reason why a defencive army as codex marines and a offencive army as chaos spacemarines should be using exactly the same weapons. Just think the roman empire while expanding and while trying to hold land how their gear changed it was different equipment was it better? Hellno but it was cheaper so you could maintain a bigger army with the same funds. I think it rougly matches up only inverted as now the offencive army has fewer resources then the defencive army

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 14:09:07


     
       
    Made in us
    Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






    the_scotsman wrote:
    =Angel=, did you just say Centurions are an "improved" version of Obliterators?

    If so, can I have some of what you're having?


    Take off those 8th ed. goggles and look at that statement from the timeframe when Centurions were introduced.


    Games Workshop Delenda Est.

    Users on ignore- 53.

    If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
       
    Made in de
    Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





    It's okay to differentiate the two factions more, but then you move chaos away from its background. There's no logical reason why chaos shouldn't have bolters on their landraiders, or why they can't carry heavy flamers, or why they don't have droppods. It gets especially ridiculous when GWs poster boy CSM from 6th/7th edition had the droppod assault as their defining strategy...
    For the game though I think it's totally okay if those two armies, which are also the main protagonists of 40K, get very different units. In the past SM got a lot of new units every year while CSM were left with their 20+ year old models, leaving many CSM players feel left behind. Now with DG, TS, Traitor legions returning and proper rules in 8th Chaos has become strong again.
       
    Made in us
    Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





    If your comparing just the core books there really isn’t much of a comparison.

    Which army can deepstrike any non-vehicle at will? Which army can span long range AP-4. Which army has gotten access to a whole new line of space marine equipment? Which army can field the Heresy era terminator armor and contemptors? Which army got access to choices that lets them constantly interrupt their opponents turn and completely ignore moral? Which army has 2 options to fallback without a major drawback? Which army has a flyer for every battlefield role?

    Ok rant aside, I don’t begrudge the space marine line getting new stuff. They make up the majority of the sales so GW should focus on them. But it is annoying to see all the Heresy kits only get rules for loyalists or weapons like grav only be implemented for loyalists. We definitely don’t need primaris though. The narrative of old vs new is actually pretty fun to flesh out, but someone in the eye of terror should have had a new idea beyond place a demon in it for BS/WS 4+ (If it doesn’t move).




    Iron within, Iron without 
       
    Made in gb
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





    Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

    odin wrote:
    Read his post and reread it unless my englishfu decieves me this seems to sum up his post for me
     =Angel= wrote:

    Should CSM have Primaris? No. Should they have equivalent? Maybe.

    And in that quoted bit he specifically says CSM shouldn't have Primaris, like I said, Chaos players don't want Chaos Primaris marines. Whether or not CSM need a new option for elite armies (because chosen, terminators, etc. are crap) is another question.
    In my eyes I do not see a good reason why a defencive army as codex marines and a offencive army as chaos spacemarines should be using exactly the same weapons. Just think the roman empire while expanding and while trying to hold land how their gear changed it was different equipment was it better? Hellno but it was cheaper so you could maintain a bigger army with the same funds. I think it rougly matches up only inverted as now the offencive army has fewer resources then the defencive army

    If you think that SM are a souly defensive army and CSM are a souly offensive army then clearly you don't know either armies as well as you should. I've seen SM armies that field nothing but fast moving/deep striking units that swamp the enemy turn 1 and I've seen CSM armies with gunline that would rival that of Imperial Guard.

    Ghorros wrote:
    The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
     Marmatag wrote:
    All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
     
       
    Made in es
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




    Vigo. Spain.

    Chaos should go full corrupted. They should lost allmost all of their imperial equipment, mutated by the warp and transformed, gain a ton of more Dark Mechanicus machines and modified vehicles, maybe based in Imperial Paterns, and become their own thing, and stop this "Loyalist but with daemons" nonsense. Just look at the new Death Guard, thats how Codex: Heretic Astartes should be.

    If people want to play renegades they should just use Codex: Space Marines and do conversions.

    If people want to play Horus Heresy Chaos, they should play Horus Heresy, or just play Codex: Space Marines and use HH models.
    And I say this when all of my Iron Warriors are Mark III armoured and uncorrupted.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/09 15:02:58


     Crimson Devil wrote:

    Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

    ERJAK wrote:
    Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

     
       
    Made in us
    Librarian with Freaky Familiar






    ARE WE DOING A RANT THREAD!?!?!

    ALRIGHT!
    why did GW think it was a good idea to give guard the ability to role multiple dice per strat to get it back, and why did they not put a CP cap

    Why is Magnus the most absolute Gak LoW in the game right now. He went from being a god to being only slightly over powered with reroll invuls, to being hot garbage never worth Fielding in any situation

    To many unpainted models to count. 
       
    Made in gb
    Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






    Wtf is with the title? Erm... Orks er to tomp fings up!
       
    Made in gb
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





    Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

     lolman1c wrote:
    Wtf is with the title? Erm... Orks er to tomp fings up!

    I believe OP (or a mod) has gone back on what he said and has changed the title and OP.

    Ghorros wrote:
    The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
     Marmatag wrote:
    All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
     
       
    Made in us
    Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





    Actually this could be a great idea. Just let everyone shout their issues out

    Iron within, Iron without 
       
    Made in gb
    Fixture of Dakka




    A forum I used to go on had a rant section. It was pretty nice having an area just for irrational complaining.

    tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
       
    Made in us
    Librarian with Freaky Familiar






    I mean, airline food, what's up with that.

    To many unpainted models to count. 
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
    Go to: