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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So one thing to note is that obviously there are other codices and units in those codices that need adjusting. However, let's just do a little at a time shall we?

The Space Marine elite slot is mostly bland and pitiful. Vanguard lost multiple attacks with their Power Weapons, Sternguard are outperformed by other gunning units, and Terminators are the most durable they've been for YEARS and have such terrible offensive output that nobody wants them. Obviously there ought to be a way to fix them without making a ton of fancy rules, right? It's been under our noses, as these are Veterans and the elite of the elite.

So I propose that the following changes be made. Be warned. There is only 4.
1. Vanguard Veterans gain WS2+
2. Sternguard gain BS2+
3. Special Issue Bolters are 1 Point
4. Terminators gain WS/BS2+

Really easy, and here is my reasoning.
1. It isn't necessary to keep adding attacks because things should be on a consistent sliding scale.
2. Vanguard won't be made to stick with double Chainswords and the occasional Power Weapon hits more often without having to interfere with the core rules as is.
3. Sternguard now trade the ability that Devastators and Command Squads have (spamming good weapons) for the ability to hit more often.
4. The Special Issue Bolter was not at the same worth as the Storm Bolter. Seriously.
5. Terminators with this fix are by proxy gaining the silly amount of rules some people wanted to implement (Relentless + non-unwieldy Power Fists) while actually considering the fact there are, in fact, other weapons that the Terminators use, surprisingly.

Now obviously I don't know how much cost adjustment is necessary with these changes (Terminators are expensive as is so probably won't need any), but what are the initial thoughts on this idea.

Just keep in mind the first sentence I made before you attack me for not thinking about Chaos Marines. That's obviously for a different thread.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Given how little play they see both casual or tournament and the deepstrike nerf meaning they are not going ro be on the table untill turn 2 now they may even still need a pointa drop.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I actually really like this change. I doubt it will happen, GW hasn't changed the BS or WS of any model since the Index.

They don't seem very willingly to change stats, and even lest for units as clasic as this ones. Something I find really stupid but ey, YO SPACE MARINES MUST BE 4444443+!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 01:38:50


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'm surprised how little opposition there is to this. Good stuff. I'll make it part of my final iteration for the codex fixes.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Well, you'd think that they'd be more skilled. It just makes sense that they'd have better Ws/Bs.
Far more than just one extra attack and Ld over the basic trooper. Especially for sternguard (seriously how does an extra attack help them?)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Jbz` wrote:
Well, you'd think that they'd be more skilled. It just makes sense that they'd have better Ws/Bs.
Far more than just one extra attack and Ld over the basic trooper. Especially for sternguard (seriously how does an extra attack help them?)

Helps more this edition but otherwise you're correct.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised how little opposition there is to this. Good stuff. I'll make it part of my final iteration for the codex fixes.
Mostly because it isn't at all objectionable. Sternguard are given the best boltguns FOR A REASON. They let entire squads of Vanguard run around with Thunder Hammers for a reason. And Terminators are given the extremely rare, difficult to produce armor, for a reason. SI Boltguns going down to one point is decent, since there are very few units the SIB is better than a Storm Bolter.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Vanguards get Mastercrafted Chainswords as an option. Basically, it would be their alternative to the Special Issue Boltgun. Maybe D2, AP-1, but each VV can only take one.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised how little opposition there is to this. Good stuff. I'll make it part of my final iteration for the codex fixes.
Mostly because it isn't at all objectionable. Sternguard are given the best boltguns FOR A REASON. They let entire squads of Vanguard run around with Thunder Hammers for a reason. And Terminators are given the extremely rare, difficult to produce armor, for a reason. SI Boltguns going down to one point is decent, since there are very few units the SIB is better than a Storm Bolter.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Vanguards get Mastercrafted Chainswords as an option. Basically, it would be their alternative to the Special Issue Boltgun. Maybe D2, AP-1, but each VV can only take one.

Just realized they don't have Eviscerator access. That needs to change.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Well, if the best non-commaner Crisis Suits are no better at shooting than Joe Firecaste who just came out of basic, at a 4+ to hit.

Or the Exarchs who have been practicing their shooting with their one weapon for longer than your chapter has existed is still only a 3+ to hit, just like that one hippy painter who decided "Hey, maybe I should think about shooting guns for a while".

So why is the IoM so special that their "These guys have been doing it longer, and distinguished themselves, so +1WS/BS" is needed?

I think you don't see a lot of complaints because it's not a big deal either way.

(Yes, I am salty about not getting +1ws/bs on Exarchs, and that they dont cost more points anymore.)

Point being, yes, Vets are more skilled. But not necessarily by enough to move up a whole bracket.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The brackets are too small.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Well, if the best non-commaner Crisis Suits are no better at shooting than Joe Firecaste who just came out of basic, at a 4+ to hit.

Or the Exarchs who have been practicing their shooting with their one weapon for longer than your chapter has existed is still only a 3+ to hit, just like that one hippy painter who decided "Hey, maybe I should think about shooting guns for a while".

So why is the IoM so special that their "These guys have been doing it longer, and distinguished themselves, so +1WS/BS" is needed?

I think you don't see a lot of complaints because it's not a big deal either way.

(Yes, I am salty about not getting +1ws/bs on Exarchs, and that they dont cost more points anymore.)

Point being, yes, Vets are more skilled. But not necessarily by enough to move up a whole bracket.

Crisis suits are still being punished for 7th edition even if GW won't admit it its how they are working. My XV8's and Devcents feel your pain.

The reason for upping the marine skill set is they fail to do enough damage per point compaired to just about anything else.
Also a 3+ save agaisnt 10 shots was worth something against 60+ law of avarages punishes elite units.

Vets without this boost need a points drop and then it just gets silly with lots of cheap hordes running around. Uping their WS is trying to make them hit better, not blow through chaff, but realy make their special weapons worth taking.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I was just arguing the fluff point. I've been convinced that basic Marines aren't in a great place currently.

(buffing VV is odd when ASM are so much worse per point currently.)
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
I was just arguing the fluff point. I've been convinced that basic Marines aren't in a great place currently.

(buffing VV is odd when ASM are so much worse per point currently.)

I think its people can see VV as saveable ASM are a lost cause.
Or atleast thats how I feel.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If ASM were 13 ppm, they'd be decentish.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Well, if the best non-commaner Crisis Suits are no better at shooting than Joe Firecaste who just came out of basic, at a 4+ to hit.

Or the Exarchs who have been practicing their shooting with their one weapon for longer than your chapter has existed is still only a 3+ to hit, just like that one hippy painter who decided "Hey, maybe I should think about shooting guns for a while".

So why is the IoM so special that their "These guys have been doing it longer, and distinguished themselves, so +1WS/BS" is needed?

I think you don't see a lot of complaints because it's not a big deal either way.

(Yes, I am salty about not getting +1ws/bs on Exarchs, and that they dont cost more points anymore.)

Point being, yes, Vets are more skilled. But not necessarily by enough to move up a whole bracket.

I think most people would agree with Crisis Suits getting an increase in that manner. However the real issue here is what Martel points out:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
The brackets are too small.

Which is correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
I was just arguing the fluff point. I've been convinced that basic Marines aren't in a great place currently.

(buffing VV is odd when ASM are so much worse per point currently.)

Assault Marines need to go down a point or two and gain access to Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers that are costed correctly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/18 20:07:38


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised how little opposition there is to this. Good stuff. I'll make it part of my final iteration for the codex fixes.


Its a really good suggestion from the previous thread where it was discussed.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





ASM need to have Jump Packs be 2 points instead of 3. No reason Vanguard Vets should have cheaper Jump Packs.

Regular Tactical/Devastator/ASM models need to go down 1 point.

I don't see any issue with giving Vets better WS/BS. Guardsmen Veterans and Scions have better BS than the rank and file, so there's a precedent there.

I like the change. We'll never get it though.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I'd agree with all those changes, but I would note that there is more presidence for similar "more skilled" units to *not* have an increased WS/BS. Also, shouldn't they have the same statline of Vet Sarges in non-vet units? So now you're mixing profiles.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
I'd agree with all those changes, but I would note that there is more presidence for similar "more skilled" units to *not* have an increased WS/BS. Also, shouldn't they have the same statline of Vet Sarges in non-vet units? So now you're mixing profiles.

It seems relatively simple to me. I know I would probably need a separate thread for the fixes, but basically how I see it, outside the armor stats:
Scouts = Assault Marines = Devastators < Tactical Marines < Command Squads = Honour Guard < Sternguard = Vanguard < Terminators. Just forgetting about the oddball Centurions and Primaris stuff. Centurions would be near the bottom, and Primaris are actually fairly well priced bar a couple of issues.

The Veteran Sergeants are inconsistent as well. For the Vets, they end up with 3 attacks. Therefore the mixing of profiles has already happened.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I suppose I have a different understanding of skill:

Scouts < Battle Brothers (Tacs, Devs, ASM) < Vets (Vet Sarge, VV, Sternies, termies) < NCO-ish (Sarges of Vet squads, Command, Honnor) < Officer (Captain).

Number of attacks varying in a squad is extremely common - almost more common than not for squads with a leader model. WS/BS varying, not so much. Remember all the complaints about WS/BS5 Exarchs?

Similarly, again, Fire Warrior/Pathfinder < Crisis pilot < Crisis leader < Bigger suit pilot, but every one of those is BS 4+.

Also, it seems odd to have Vets have different profiles based on if they're currently a member of a Sternie squad, VV squad, or wearing Termie armor today.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 16:31:47


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





My real question is why do Honor Guard have less attacks than a Veteran Sergeant? You'd think Honor Guard would be the best of the best outside of Lieutenants and such. They have 2 wounds and are given Artificier Armor so they must be super badass, yet... 2 attacks.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





HeroHammer.

It's the same reason an Autarch has better a better combat statline than an Exarch. The Vet Sarge is the hero in the squad. The Honor Squad guy is a guy in the Honor Squad. In-universe, he should be more skilled. But GW wants the Vet Sarge to stand out.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
I suppose I have a different understanding of skill:

Scouts < Battle Brothers (Tacs, Devs, ASM) < Vets (Vet Sarge, VV, Sternies, termies) < NCO-ish (Sarges of Vet squads, Command, Honnor) < Officer (Captain).

Number of attacks varying in a squad is extremely common - almost more common than not for squads with a leader model. WS/BS varying, not so much. Remember all the complaints about WS/BS5 Exarchs?

Similarly, again, Fire Warrior/Pathfinder < Crisis pilot < Crisis leader < Bigger suit pilot, but every one of those is BS 4+.

Also, it seems odd to have Vets have different profiles based on if they're currently a member of a Sternie squad, VV squad, or wearing Termie armor today.

Tau used to have different profiles for different ranks but GW has just flattened and flattened out things to absurd levels in the tau codex it has it's own horribly fluff inconsistent internal balance issues.

Also a vanguard vet isn't going to just walk into the armour and just casually pick up a bolter. They train heavily to master close combat so should be WS2+, sternguard are the reverse. Terminators are vetren vetrens who have been there done all, they should be the guys you call when you hit a snafu and need to win an unwinable situation. They are the best of the best that just have no skills and/or interest in comand ranks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 20:27:24


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Vanguard Vets and Sternguards frequently display their Crux Terminatus even deployed as such.

The difference between Vanguard Vets/Sternguard and Terminators is *purely* how the guy is equipped that day.

It's the same guy, different gear.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
I suppose I have a different understanding of skill:

Scouts < Battle Brothers (Tacs, Devs, ASM) < Vets (Vet Sarge, VV, Sternies, termies) < NCO-ish (Sarges of Vet squads, Command, Honnor) < Officer (Captain).

Number of attacks varying in a squad is extremely common - almost more common than not for squads with a leader model. WS/BS varying, not so much. Remember all the complaints about WS/BS5 Exarchs?

Similarly, again, Fire Warrior/Pathfinder < Crisis pilot < Crisis leader < Bigger suit pilot, but every one of those is BS 4+.

Also, it seems odd to have Vets have different profiles based on if they're currently a member of a Sternie squad, VV squad, or wearing Termie armor today.

If you recall, the complaints were that they got an extra attack WITH the BS/WS increase, along with an extra wound because. Nobody cares about an LD increase overall because most armies had ways to gain Fearless or something equal to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
Vanguard Vets and Sternguards frequently display their Crux Terminatus even deployed as such.

The difference between Vanguard Vets/Sternguard and Terminators is *purely* how the guy is equipped that day.

It's the same guy, different gear.

It Isn't just the same guy. It's gonna be the guys they trust with such rare equipment. Ya know, the best of the best compared to the other Vets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 22:37:07


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Between 3+ and 2+ there is 3+ rerolling 1s.

In this way a veteran would be better than a brethren but less than an officer
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The Deer Hunter wrote:
Between 3+ and 2+ there is 3+ rerolling 1s.

In this way a veteran would be better than a brethren but less than an officer

Which makes Captains even more redundant compared to Chapter Masters. I don't think that should be the goal.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Well ever since I saw someone bring up D10s for 40k it seems like the way to go.
You can have variations between different units like a Tac squad and sternguard
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Between 3+ and 2+ there is 3+ rerolling 1s.

In this way a veteran would be better than a brethren but less than an officer

Which makes Captains even more redundant compared to Chapter Masters. I don't think that should be the goal.


What I understand is the OP wants to make veterans better than normal marine, but make them as good as a Captain is imo not a good idea.
Better for me put them in the middle.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
Well ever since I saw someone bring up D10s for 40k it seems like the way to go.
You can have variations between different units like a Tac squad and sternguard

I'm of the belief that would be excellent but it would require a lot of work to do. I'm all for a lot of us getting our thoughts together on that though!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Between 3+ and 2+ there is 3+ rerolling 1s.

In this way a veteran would be better than a brethren but less than an officer

Which makes Captains even more redundant compared to Chapter Masters. I don't think that should be the goal.


What I understand is the OP wants to make veterans better than normal marine, but make them as good as a Captain is imo not a good idea.
Better for me put them in the middle.

They aren't as good as a Captain. The Captain has more attacks and rerolling of 1's naturally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/26 08:55:32


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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