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I don't play BA so I don't know them in an out. The list below is 1903 points and plenty of details can change, but I don't want to get into the nitty gritty as much as the concept.

Lemartes, VV, and SG are in DS so easily small enough to fit the PL requirement. The rest of the list is an anti-infantry focused force. The captain and lieutenant give reroll 1s to hit and wound to the "gun line" portion.
The melee portion packs some strong weapons and would, in theory, have a more clear path to get to things they want to hurt instead of wasting potential on garbage units.

Wouldn't this be effective as much as just spamming DS melee units into the screens? Why or why not?

The complaint people have is that this just nerfs bad armies worse than it nerfs problem ones, and will result in guard just taking more guns, but grey knights being useless, or chaos marines losing one of their most important gimmicks. It makes crisis suits useless for tau, and makes it so that deep striking shooty units can just set up further back, while CC armies get hurt so hard it's not funny.

Sure, it addresses the problem of alpha strike, but in a way that also nerfs so many other things that the tradeoff isn't worth it. It basically increases the gap between the good armies and horrible ones, because the good ones can just trade out their now useless deep strike guys for other viable units, while every week army that used deep strike as a crutch is now gutted.

Ooh fun, I'm glad you posted that lol.

There's nothing "wrong" with your list, but it's not how a competitive BA player would run their assault units. Here's the CC portion of my BA list: This a vanguard detachment with two of the HQ's coming from the BA battalion detachment also in the list. In this scenario, on turn 1, the sanguinor, captain, libby, and sanguinary guard all land 9" away from something. Descent of Angels pretty much guarantees the 10-strong sanguinary get in. The captains angels wing gives him re rolls to charge. The libby can quicken himself to also guarantee his charge while also giving the 10-strong unit +1 attacks. The sanguinor and ancient either make the charge or they don't, but the 10-strong sanguinary unit is large enough to daisy chain 1 or 2 guys back to hit all the buffs. Assuming unleash rage is cast successfully the 10-strong sanguinary guard are on +2 attacks, re rolling all hits, re rolling wounds of 1, and have a 5+ FnP. The other characters are also on +1 attacks from sanguinor, hell even the librarian is on 5-7 attacks because of quickening plus sanguinor. The DC captain is on 4 attacks base, +1 for sanguinor, +1 on the charge, +d3 for red rampage stratagem, so 7-9 thunder hammer attacks with a re rollable charge and a 3++ and 5+ FnP re rolling 1's. All the while the 12-DC are starting on the board using forlorn fury to double move into charge range, BUT CRUCIALLY, Lemartes meets them dropping from deep strike to let them re roll hits and charge. This whole conception is essentially thrown out the window now. Your list is "fine," but it isn't this sort of thing.

HQ – The Sanguinor 170 pts

HQ – Death Company Captain w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield & the Angel’s Wing 129 pts (Warlord: Gift of Foresight)

HQ – Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol & Force Axe (Unleash Rage/Quickening) 129 pts

Elites – Sanguinary Ancient w/ Angelus Boltgun, Power Fist & Standard of Sacrifice 99 pts
Elites – 10x Sanguinary Guard w/ Angelus Boltguns & Power Fists 350 pts

HQ – Lemartes 129 pts
Elites – 12x Death Company w/ Jump Packs, Chainswords & Boltguns 240 pts

I can't understand how people say that deepstriking units (That aren't CC based, like plasma scions, obliterators, Inceptors, etc...) will become "Unplayable" by this rule.

Thats exactly the kind of units that this rule tries to fix. I have seen CC armies based just around deepstriking CC units. I haven't seen a chaos one that his only gimmick are deepstriking obliterators.

"If a unit can't deepstrike in shooting range in turn 1 it becomes trash"... what?

 Galas wrote:
I can't understand how people say that deepstriking units (That aren't CC based, like plasma scions, obliterators, Inceptors, etc...) will become "Unplayable" by this rule.

Thats exactly the kind of units that this rule tries to fix. I have seen CC armies based just around deepstriking CC units. I haven't seen a chaos one that his only gimmick are deepstriking obliterators.

"If a unit can't deepstrike in shooting range in turn 1 it becomes trash"... what?

I think the concern is that when an army like Guard that can bring their entire force to bear on turn one exists it puts the onus on every other army to be able to bring their entire force to bear on turn one as well, or else you're just playing with one less turn than the Guard player.

I'm not sure if I agree with this premise, though it'll quickly become clear if static gunlines become the name of the game after this change.

Personally I think a lot of people who are not for this rule never fought a true deep striking alpha strike army like slaanesh oblits, or getting warp time into with zerkers, or the worst outta all of them tempest scions.

Like this is a good thing, and a lot of people are going to be realy suprised at how useful it is to wait a turn to deep strike, you know when you enemy moves up and spreads our and opens up.

 peteralmo wrote:
Ooh fun, I'm glad you posted that lol.

There's nothing "wrong" with your list, but it's not how a competitive BA player would run their assault units. Here's the CC portion of my BA list: This a vanguard detachment with two of the HQ's coming from the BA battalion detachment also in the list. In this scenario, on turn 1, the sanguinor, captain, libby, and sanguinary guard all land 9" away from something. Descent of Angels pretty much guarantees the 10-strong sanguinary get in. The captains angels wing gives him re rolls to charge. The libby can quicken himself to also guarantee his charge while also giving the 10-strong unit +1 attacks. The sanguinor and ancient either make the charge or they don't, but the 10-strong sanguinary unit is large enough to daisy chain 1 or 2 guys back to hit all the buffs. Assuming unleash rage is cast successfully the 10-strong sanguinary guard are on +2 attacks, re rolling all hits, re rolling wounds of 1, and have a 5+ FnP. The other characters are also on +1 attacks from sanguinor, hell even the librarian is on 5-7 attacks because of quickening plus sanguinor. The DC captain is on 4 attacks base, +1 for sanguinor, +1 on the charge, +d3 for red rampage stratagem, so 7-9 thunder hammer attacks with a re rollable charge and a 3++ and 5+ FnP re rolling 1's. All the while the 12-DC are starting on the board using forlorn fury to double move into charge range, BUT CRUCIALLY, Lemartes meets them dropping from deep strike to let them re roll hits and charge. This whole conception is essentially thrown out the window now. Your list is "fine," but it isn't this sort of thing.

HQ – The Sanguinor 170 pts

HQ – Death Company Captain w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield & the Angel’s Wing 129 pts (Warlord: Gift of Foresight)

HQ – Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol & Force Axe (Unleash Rage/Quickening) 129 pts

Elites – Sanguinary Ancient w/ Angelus Boltgun, Power Fist & Standard of Sacrifice 99 pts
Elites – 10x Sanguinary Guard w/ Angelus Boltguns & Power Fists 350 pts

HQ – Lemartes 129 pts
Elites – 12x Death Company w/ Jump Packs, Chainswords & Boltguns 240 pts

Honestly that sounds like crazy overkill unless you can get to tons of tanks and want them dead yesterday. There are some elements the list could pick from that to make melee stronger and reduce the gunline a bit. I can see a few paths. I have no idea if they'd work well, but looking at what you wrote I can see why they might have made the rule as it is even if it's a big rock to some scissors.

I'm willing to give it more time - I'm just not sure how to convince others until they play games, too. The whole list writing process is on it's head right now.

On the CP end yours seems light where this would pack in 13? Not sure i'd be able to use it all though.

BA are dead. Just don't worry about it. But it has nothing to do with any of this crap. The terrain rule kills us.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are dead. Just don't worry about it. But it has nothing to do with any of this crap. The terrain rule kills us.

I do wish for better terrain rules. Surely that can't be the main impediment though?

No. The new one in the rule book. The one that fails charges.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
Ooh fun, I'm glad you posted that lol.

There's nothing "wrong" with your list, but it's not how a competitive BA player would run their assault units. Here's the CC portion of my BA list: This a vanguard detachment with two of the HQ's coming from the BA battalion detachment also in the list. In this scenario, on turn 1, the sanguinor, captain, libby, and sanguinary guard all land 9" away from something. Descent of Angels pretty much guarantees the 10-strong sanguinary get in. The captains angels wing gives him re rolls to charge. The libby can quicken himself to also guarantee his charge while also giving the 10-strong unit +1 attacks. The sanguinor and ancient either make the charge or they don't, but the 10-strong sanguinary unit is large enough to daisy chain 1 or 2 guys back to hit all the buffs. Assuming unleash rage is cast successfully the 10-strong sanguinary guard are on +2 attacks, re rolling all hits, re rolling wounds of 1, and have a 5+ FnP. The other characters are also on +1 attacks from sanguinor, hell even the librarian is on 5-7 attacks because of quickening plus sanguinor. The DC captain is on 4 attacks base, +1 for sanguinor, +1 on the charge, +d3 for red rampage stratagem, so 7-9 thunder hammer attacks with a re rollable charge and a 3++ and 5+ FnP re rolling 1's. All the while the 12-DC are starting on the board using forlorn fury to double move into charge range, BUT CRUCIALLY, Lemartes meets them dropping from deep strike to let them re roll hits and charge. This whole conception is essentially thrown out the window now. Your list is "fine," but it isn't this sort of thing.

HQ – The Sanguinor 170 pts

HQ – Death Company Captain w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield & the Angel’s Wing 129 pts (Warlord: Gift of Foresight)

HQ – Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol & Force Axe (Unleash Rage/Quickening) 129 pts

Elites – Sanguinary Ancient w/ Angelus Boltgun, Power Fist & Standard of Sacrifice 99 pts
Elites – 10x Sanguinary Guard w/ Angelus Boltguns & Power Fists 350 pts

HQ – Lemartes 129 pts
Elites – 12x Death Company w/ Jump Packs, Chainswords & Boltguns 240 pts

Honestly that sounds like crazy overkill unless you can get to tons of tanks and want them dead yesterday. There are some elements the list could pick from that to make melee stronger and reduce the gunline a bit. I can see a few paths. I have no idea if they'd work well, but looking at what you wrote I can see why they might have made the rule as it is even if it's a big rock to some scissors.

I'm willing to give it more time - I'm just not sure how to convince others until they play games, too. The whole list writing process is on it's head right now.

Crazy overkill is my middle name... Jokes aside it looks anti-tank ish but I think that's just because sanguinary guard are designed strangely, their cheapest melee weapon option is 12 points, either encarmine sword or fist. For the same points, and with the way they're supported I just prefer the fists, but they're not simply for tanks, also for monstrous creatures and multi wound elite units, this unit could chew through a few hive tyrants for example fairly easily.

BA are useless because the half of the list that starts on the board is useless.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are useless because the half of the list that starts on the board is useless.

You don't think any portion of what I posted would have any value?

Not if they can make themselves immune to assault by simply crushing into terrain features.

We're in the BabyRage phase of the FAQ reaction. You could try to explain why the sky isn't necessarily falling but people have settled into a narrative in their heads and it will take some time to disabuse themselves of it.

My group is already discussing how to best abuse the new rulebook FAQ. The beta deep strike is the least of my problems if I can't make a legal assault.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are useless because the half of the list that starts on the board is useless.

The half that starts in the table is dead.

Dead, useless. Take your pick.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are useless because the half of the list that starts on the board is useless.

The half that starts in the table is dead.

That sounds like good old fashioned hyperbole.

Not too far off. A 1100 pt Drukhari list killed 470 pts of my stuff in one turn. Marines are REALLY bad.

 Jaxler wrote:
The complaint people have is that this just nerfs bad armies worse than it nerfs problem ones, and will result in guard just taking more guns, but grey knights being useless, or chaos marines losing one of their most important gimmicks. It makes crisis suits useless for tau, and makes it so that deep striking shooty units can just set up further back, while CC armies get hurt so hard it's not funny.

Sure, it addresses the problem of alpha strike, but in a way that also nerfs so many other things that the tradeoff isn't worth it. It basically increases the gap between the good armies and horrible ones, because the good ones can just trade out their now useless deep strike guys for other viable units, while every week army that used deep strike as a crutch is now gutted.

Yeah. Looking at my own 2 armies...Well basically FAQ was HUGE boost for my IG(weren't people complaining IG are overpowered?). Only thing that really got hurt were stormtroopers but hey I have played until now 8th without those and did fine. I can live with T2 arrival with them. However my orks took huge nerfbat to their head(since when orks were problem?). Kommandos(good thing the boyz I was planning to convert to kommandos are still on route. I can instead build more boyz since they are more and more only unit orks have worth anything) and Da Jump power just died. There's no point bringing them as they are for h2h units when you are then looking T3 reliable use which is way too late(games are often decided on T2 anyway) and any player who has played more than 1-2 games(if even that) knows how to use screens to ensure T2 those can't appear anywhere NEAR useful. In fact you would be better off foot slogging! So as it is only use for Da Jump will be to have 1 for threat of sending somewhere to force enemy to bring screen closer and then in reality use smite. Not sure if that's good use of weirdboy...Costly smite battery.

GW screwed up by doing blanket restriction without actually thinking wide effect. Deep striking plasma isn't nearly as scary as deep striking flamer, melta or h2h unit without 3d6" charge. Funnily enough deep striking plasma is the least affected unit...So GW hurt more the ones that weren't problem than the ones that were problem.

This is why you don't do blanket changes but fix the real problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Personally I think a lot of people who are not for this rule never fought a true deep striking alpha strike army like slaanesh oblits, or getting warp time into with zerkers, or the worst outta all of them tempest scions.

Like this is a good thing, and a lot of people are going to be realy suprised at how useful it is to wait a turn to deep strike, you know when you enemy moves up and spreads our and opens up.

a) oblits have long range so they don't actually need to deep strike within 9" of enemy and indeed are often played poorly if they do b) zerkers are coming ahead by pre-turn 1 alpha legion strategem which isn't hurt by change c) scions yes were problem. When armed with plasma. Melta/flamer/hot shot gun less so.

Problem is GW took problem that's few specific units and then applied it game wide which wipes out units in usefullness. Was Da Jump broken? Kommandos? Really? Flamer scions? Whee T1 get close, take shooting, then walk in and flame. What a broken cheeseeeeeee!

Give me honest answer. Which one was more powerful army. IG or orks? If you say IG then why IG got HUGE boost from this while orks were hit by a nerf bat? Note IG and eldar were 2 armies that while get hurt a bit by FAQ are ones that survived much better than other armies so relatively those armies actually benefitted...

I can't fathom how anyone could think this is a good change. I'm keen to hear the actual argument, Daedelus! Let's assume your opponent is classic AM gunline with 80-120 infantry, using movemovemove to extend a denial area out into your half of the board, and pummel you to dust with Cadian artillery. We can even give them a valk with ogryns to provide turn-1 CC. How would your BA force approach this common foe?

 Galas wrote:
I can't understand how people say that deepstriking units (That aren't CC based, like plasma scions, obliterators, Inceptors, etc...) will become "Unplayable" by this rule.

Thats exactly the kind of units that this rule tries to fix. I have seen CC armies based just around deepstriking CC units. I haven't seen a chaos one that his only gimmick are deepstriking obliterators.

"If a unit can't deepstrike in shooting range in turn 1 it becomes trash"... what?

This is dakka. Everybody seems to be playing against IG and Eldar all the time and their games are over after turn 1. Always.

Meanwhile my Nurgle Daemon army walks on the field and reaches CC in turn two despite being the slowest army in the game. I don't know what people are doing with their bikes, jump packs, flyers, transports that they are so obsessed with deep strike.

Martel732 wrote:
Not too far off. A 1100 pt Drukhari list killed 470 pts of my stuff in one turn. Marines are REALLY bad.

Could you elaborate? BA have some seriously expensive units so I feel like there is a bit of skew there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
I can't fathom how anyone could think this is a good change. I'm keen to hear the actual argument, Daedelus! Let's assume your opponent is classic AM gunline with 80-120 infantry, using movemovemove to extend a denial area out into your half of the board, and pummel you to dust with Cadian artillery. We can even give them a valk with ogryns to provide turn-1 CC. How would your BA force approach this common foe?

Hey, I was a detractor initially, too. But, first I need someone to make me a list under the new rules. I'm going to make a new post for that.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I can't understand how people say that deepstriking units (That aren't CC based, like plasma scions, obliterators, Inceptors, etc...) will become "Unplayable" by this rule.

Thats exactly the kind of units that this rule tries to fix. I have seen CC armies based just around deepstriking CC units. I haven't seen a chaos one that his only gimmick are deepstriking obliterators.

"If a unit can't deepstrike in shooting range in turn 1 it becomes trash"... what?

This is dakka. Everybody seems to be playing against IG and Eldar all the time and their games are over after turn 1. Always.

Meanwhile my Nurgle Daemon army walks on the field and reaches CC in turn two despite being the slowest army in the game. I don't know what people are doing with their bikes, jump packs, flyers, transports that they are so obsessed with deep strike.

Nurgle is the Thoughtest ( maybe second to custodes ) army in the game and your deamons are lots and lots of models
Talking about transports you can’t do a turn one charge with a transport and they still are used to soak up wounds,
Bikes are good but not as effective as other units
Being a Gk player I know we have inceptors but they do what strikes could do with DS and we need strikes anyway for CP so they end up taking the place of our stronger units
Flayers die like candy( most of them) if they are not in sufficient numbers( single raven?)
Jump packs are useful for deep strikes more than movement wise and are in the bike slot at this point sooo
As for the elefants I the room( IG and Eldar) they are the first example in people minds because they are the strongest and the ones who really didn’t take that much of a hit from the FAQ( also Tau suffered for crisis teams but are still strong even with the beta DP)
In the end the hurt from this Beta went to those who didn’t need it