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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Not a 40k expert by any means so forgive me if this idea has some gaping loophole I missed. New generic stratagem on top of the three already available in the main rulebook:

Cleaving Blows (or some name to that effect) 1 or 2 CP: Use this stratagem when a unit is chosen to attack in the fight phase. For the rest of the phase damage from the unit's attacks in excess of the target's wound characteristic carries over to additional models.

Not meant to be a magic cure but perhaps this could help out by giving elite melee units a potential horde-killing capacity while also making hordes more vulnerable to being wiped out quickly. What do you all think?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 18:11:26


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Made in us
Norn Queen






No. Stratagems should never be used to fix core issues of the game.

The issue becomes either

A) the issue is so big that the stratagem becomes a no brainer and is used all the time always because its needed for fair play. Which means players are spending a currancy that is supposed to be used for quick interesting tactical choices just to keep up.

Or

B) the stratagem either isnt good enough or the problem isnt big enough and it never gets used.

Neither of those are good. Stratagems are one of the worst places to look for core mechanic balance fixes. Never count on them to fix anything.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Pretty sure there's plenty of grey area between those two extremes...

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Eh... I'm actually with Lance on this. The issue is Stratagems are once per turn, meaning it can easily dominate in low-point games, but then become useless in higher ones.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Pretty sure there's plenty of grey area between those two extremes...


Pretty sure, in actual practice, there isn't.

People suggest stratagems to fix first turn advantage all the time too. Either they DO fix first turn advantage for the second player is guaranteed to be using them every game which just means the second player has a CP tax they have to pay or suffer the unbalanced first turn threat of the enemy or they have other mitigating factors in play/the stratagems don't do enough and they don't touch the stratagems at all.

Again, stratagems are not, and should not be, a balancing mechanic. Fix the actual problem. Don't try to band aid it with other nonsense.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I was never advertising it as a fix, just something that could help. Perhaps I should have emphasized I was looking for thoughts on the strategem itself, because right now I don't think you even read my post beyond the title. If you did you'd understand how it isn't going to be auto-use because not every army will have the units needed to capitalize on it.

As for fix instead of band aid, well take a look around and see how that's working out...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 17:05:23


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Disagreeing with your idea does not mean i didnt read it. I disagree with it because i think its a bad idea.

Your suggesting creating a universal stratagem for every army to use to help mitigate the effects of a core issue in the way the game works and by your own admition not every army even has the units to make real use of it. No go back and look at the games 3 basic universal stratagems. Then go reread the bit about your stratagem not even really being useful for some armies. Now compare the games core ones to yours.

See the problem?

You started off on a bad foundation by looking to stratagems to address your precieved issue. And everything that you built on that foundation has gone bad in the building.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Yeah, that ignore morale test is just so useful for Tyranids. And I can't get over how often I see Tau fight outside of normal order.

Strategems affect the game in ways beyond auto-take or never-take, period. And I started this thread to discuss the above strategem specifically, not your objectivelly untrue stance that strategems are binary in effectiviness. If you want to discuss why the concept doesn't work that's fine, take it do a different thread because its off-topic here.

I do understand that the original thread title could be misleading (obviously more so if one doesn't read the post) so I edited it to better reflect my intent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 18:22:21


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeah, that ignore morale test is just so useful for Tyranids. And I can't get over how often I see Tau fight outside of normal order.

Strategems affect the game in ways beyond auto-take or never-take, period. And I started this thread to discuss the above strategem specifically, not your objectivelly untrue stance that strategems are binary in effectiviness. If you want to discuss why the concept doesn't work that's fine, take it do a different thread because its off-topic here.

I do understand that the original thread title could be misleading (obviously more so if one doesn't read the post) so I edited it to better reflect my intent.


I didnt say stratagems are binary in effectiveness. I said trying to use stratagems to patch major issues in the core structure of the game is binary in effectiveness and as a result creates new problems.

You see that there is a major flaw in the emergent gameplay in relation to balance between small elite forces and msu hordes due to the nature of 8ths core mechanics. You're right. There is a problem.

Your proposed fix is not good.

Want a direct example? Ok.

Sometimes really big gak like a heirophant biotitan do d6+ dmg. For the use of the stratagem they can in a single blow wipe out the small elite units. 5 man tac marines? Every unsaved wound dealing d6 dmg from a hive tyrant has the potential to wipe the unit.

Not only is the use of stratagems as a fix bad. It also hurts the elite armies more than the hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact a hive tyrant has the potential to kill some 18-21 models in a single fight phase instead of its current 6-7 MAX.

If it can charge and pile in to multiple units of marines it could annihilate several units all at once.

A trygon on the other hand gets even MORE attacks. With each attack dealing multiple damage with great AP.

Was this your intent?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/20 03:43:45



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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I have to concur that putting a Stratagem to this would probably have unexpected consequences and hurt Elite armies even worse. Wound spillover would make quick work of high cost multiwound squadies like Terminators.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






etb342 wrote:
I have to concur that putting a Stratagem to this would probably have unexpected consequences and hurt Elite armies even worse. Wound spillover would make quick work of high cost multiwound squadies like Terminators.
Hm, this is a good point. While with 2w terminators wouldn't have it as bad as 1w elites, and both could get wrecked by stuff like dreadnought fists.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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Dakka Veteran





Simple solution. Reintroduce template weapons. As far as shooting goes. Bring back to hit modifiers for line of partial line of sight or vehicles moving over 8”. It makes sense that if you take a penalty for moving your vehicle and shooting thatthe enemy would have a penalty to hit a fast mover
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






feth no on templates.

1) they are slow and as a result slow down the game drastically.

2) they can create arguments. (you didn't scatter 18 degrees, you scattered 22 degree! or There are 7 guys under that template not 6!)

Templates and scatter dice are a slow, dull, imprecise mechanic that is in no way needed and should stay dead.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Dakka Veteran





Templates were awesome. The problem is playing with morons who wanna argue everything to death
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Any mechanic with that much ambiguity is not awesome. It's a problem.

Not to mention that as a result of their existence you had to do far more micro managing of movement positioning and spread of models. Making small blasts near worthless (hitting 2 or 3 models MAX and more often just 1 or none while again slowing down the game) and flamers difficult at best.

It's not just the fiddly nonsense that a template mechanic created on it's own. It's also all the resulting crap people had to do to counter it negating much if any benefit they had while also dragging out movement phases with micromanagement.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 05:32:45



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





That’s a valid point. But I still enjoyed template weapons. For tournament play it would take too much time. But just for fun. I liked it
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I am not questioning your enjoyment.

I am only stating that the game as a whole has improved in their absence. Bringing them back comes with a list of problems that far outweighs their benefits, up to and including, your enjoyment of placing some peripherals around the table. Going backwards to a clunkier slower mechanic that has other negative impacts on the emergent game play of the game is a bad idea.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 JNAProductions wrote:
Eh... I'm actually with Lance on this. The issue is Stratagems are once per turn, meaning it can easily dominate in low-point games, but then become useless in higher ones.


Yeah. Strategems are very epitome of unscalable rules. So I don't understand why people are so eager to put everything units used to be able to do natively on strategems. Means those scales badly so if unit basically needs strategem to work that unit becomes effectively max 1 even in bigger games. And leads toward deathstar type of list building...

Too much strategem reliance already in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
warpedpig wrote:
That’s a valid point. But I still enjoyed template weapons. For tournament play it would take too much time. But just for fun. I liked it


Never took that much time for me. Certainly less time than all the 8th ed's rerolls eat up. End result being 7th ed 200+ model ork army I play through easily. 8th ed I'm lucky if I get to finish 3rd turn in same time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 06:17:03


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