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Can stratagems that are played at the end of my turn be considered not played in a phase, and hence can be played more than once?

torblind wrote:
Can stratagems that are played at the end of my turn be considered not played in a phase, and hence can be played more than once?

No. The end of your turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no instant in time between the end of your morale phase and the start of your opponents movement phase.

What stratagem exactly are you looking to use?

The ones that gives a necron unit +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn

torblind wrote:
The ones that gives a necron unit +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn

I see. No, you can't use it multiple times then. The end of your turn is still in the Morale Phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

torblind wrote:
The ones that gives a necron unit +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn

I see. No, you can't use it multiple times then. The end of your turn is still in the Morale Phase.

More correctly any "at the end of the x phase" actions are not during the phase.

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’? A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

So considering this in relation to the Strategic Discipline rule being:

BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'

Which means, go nuts using the end of phase/turn stratagem as much as you want!

Sorry but that is not true. End of Phase and End of Turn are not the same as "end of a battle round".

The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end". "End of Phase" actions very much still happen during the phase.

The stratagem in question says "Use this Stratagem at the end of your turn", not "Use this Stratagem at the end of a battle round" so that FAQ doesn't apply here.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".

The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".

And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.

End of phase is still in a phase.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".

The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".

And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.

End of phase is still in a phase.

No, it isn't. There is nothing to suggest that it is. The FAQ does not mention "end of turn" stratagems. The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale phase. There is no in-between time. Please provide a rules quote to suggest that there is some sort of magical not-phase-phase between them.

The rulebook says "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:" There is no step between the end of the Morale Phase and the start of the Movement Phase.

The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?

JakeSiren wrote:
The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?

No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".

The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".

And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.

End of phase is still in a phase.

No, it isn't. There is nothing to suggest that it is. The FAQ does not mention "end of turn" stratagems. The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale phase. There is no in-between time. Please provide a rules quote to suggest that there is some sort of magical not-phase-phase between them.

The rulebook says "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:"

Completely disagree.
End of turn is functionally the same as end of battle round , and is a perfectly valid example (of which we are given only two, but not as an all inclusive list) of a time a stratagem can occur outside of a phase.

You can disagree all you want, you're still wrong. You're making up rules.

Please, provide a rules citation for your "end of turn is functionally the same as end of battle round " claim. Because the end of the battle round happens after both players take a turn, they are not the same thing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?

No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.

Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?

No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.

Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?

No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.

Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?

No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.

Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?

No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.

Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.

Let me explain further then. You consider the "end of phase" to either be a period of time after the "during of phase" or an instant that you sequence out all simultaneous actions that occur "at the end of the phase".

In either case neither of these are considered "during" the phase as explained by the FAQ (If they were considered to be "during" then you could play a "during phase" Stratagem, either by just playing it if you consider "end of phase" to be a period of time, or sequencing out your simultaneous actions)

As of such you can play as many "at the end of the phase" Stratagems as you want as Strategic Discipline only applies "during" a phase.

That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.

Phases have 3 parts

1. Beginning
2. During
3. End

This is the allow for certain actions/stratagems/etc to occur in some semblance of order, as in the FAQ quote above stating that models arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.

Strats used "at the end of phase X" are still occurring during phase X and can be used only once. The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase, so the Reclaim a Lost Empire strat can be used only once.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.

Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?

Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.

Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?

Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.

Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Phases have 3 parts
arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.
The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase.

Citation needed.

We know that an end of battle round is distinct, and the wording in the turn sequence is the same for the end of turns.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.

Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?

Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.

Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.

Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?

Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?

Also, this is somewhat tangential, but what about the "Beginning of the Turn?"

Does a Sororitas player re-rolling to get their Act of Faith count as having used the re-roll stratagem for their Movement Phase? What about if they re-roll a unit's attacks when it Fights as a result of an Act of Faith, or to re-roll the number of wounds restored (1d3) as a result of an Act of Faith? Those are all "Movement Phase" re-rolls and therefore they couldn't e.g. re-roll an advance roll later in the turn?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, this is somewhat tangential, but what about the "Beginning of the Turn??

Beginning of the turn would also not be a phase. As it doesn't have phase in the name. (Perhaps a simplistic definition, but it works )

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Phases have 3 parts
arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.
The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase.

Citation needed.

We know that an end of battle round is distinct, and the wording in the turn sequence is the same for the end of turns.

"Phases have 3 parts"

Citation:
Context clues sprinkled throughout the rules. Necron example:
Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, Eternity Gate ability from the Monolith, Translocation Crypt Stratagem
These three abilities occur each in a different part of the Movement phase, as dictated in their rules.
Dimensional Corridor happens at the start of my movement phase. If I move any of my other units first, I cannot use this ability
Eternity Gate ability happens during the movement phase but before I move the Monolith. I can move my entire army (save the Monolith) and still activate this ability.
Translocation Crypt says I can set up the unit I used this strat on at the end of my movement phase. Once I set them up, I can no longer move any units in my army (unless they also have rules allowing for movement/set up at the end of my movement phase)


"Units arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase."
Citation: See above, there are 3 distinct parts of each phase. This was also addressed in the Main Rules FAQ and is quoted earlier in this thread.


"The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase."
This one I'll admit has no clear citation, but is inferred that the end of morale is also the end of turn (I'm unaware of any other strats/abilities that occur at "end of turn". If you've got examples I can research, please let me know them). Also, the FAQ only cites an exception to Strategic Discipline for strats that are used during deployment, and nothing there suggests exceptions happen at any other time.

 Gojiratoho wrote:



, and nothing there suggests exceptions happen at any other time.

Thanks for the citations.
The strategic discipline rule itself lists the end of a battle round as an example of an out of phase timing point.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, this is somewhat tangential, but what about the "Beginning of the Turn??

Beginning of the turn would also not be a phase. As it doesn't have phase in the name. (Perhaps a simplistic definition, but it works )

So "beginning of turn" rolls can be re-rolled as many times as you have CP?

So a Sororitas list with 3 imagifiers can re-roll all 3 4+ AOF rolls, and then spend CP to re-roll the results of any of the AOFs as well?

Can't re-roll a re-roll.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can't re-roll a re-roll.

I didn't say you could??

EDIT:
Oh, I see. No, I know you can't re-roll a re-roll. But Sororitas get an entire phase, essentially for a unit before the Movement Phase at the start of their turn. With enough CP, every roll during that could be re-rolled, presumably?

If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.

Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.