Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So I currently play Death Guard, most of my army is melee based, my biggest shooting stuff is a bunch of blightlord terminators and 3 foetid bloat drones and 14 Plague Marines.
I often depend on my Demon Prince or Typhus to slaughter the enemy MEQ/GEQs but with the new Chargerule they don't fit on any area where their usual targets sit.
I expect stuff like Orks to be totally borked in our store since most of the Buildings we use are the ruins that have maybe 2 inches of space.
How do you handle the new Charge-Rules and Wobbly model syndrome? We still handle it that the charge is supposed to go up there but the unit can be placed next to them if they are within reach of the model (stuff like orkboys can stand 1 level below)
I wanna try them out but shooting armies like the Astra Militarum already shot you to death before you could even reach them on most of our tables, I imagine it will just become worse to the point of us basically using houserules.
Nothing really changed, if you have fly you can go up multi-stories, infantry always could as well... this is nothing new.
You can charge a unit in cover up on floor 2 and they can pile in and consolidate like normal and get to you.
The Wobby Model Syndrome was added b.c terrain is goofy to play with especially with models that dont actually move and has a base., and so players dont argue, or chip paint. The are trying to lessen arguments (hence the within 1" rules for CC, no more blaster/template weapons and some others).
Yes but my point is that those stories in my store don't have enough place for more than 2 extra models, as the new rules state I could only e.g charge up 1 model if there's place for just 1 model.
Before that we would usually say I can charge below them but have to make the theoritcal vertical charge.
Now stuff like my Demon Prince won't be able to kill most MEQs because he doesn't fit on stuff like this https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Sanctum-Imperialis if there's other models up there. Or is the rule exempt for stuff that flies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 00:07:22
I feel like this is one of those changes GW made without really putting in a lot of play testing because it sounded "fine" on paper. Reminds me of the whole 7th edition FAQ about drop pod doors being part of the vehicle when folded down so drop pods could take up huge areas of the board.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Amishprn86 wrote: Nothing really changed, if you have fly you can go up multi-stories, infantry always could as well... this is nothing new.
You can charge a unit in cover up on floor 2 and they can pile in and consolidate like normal and get to you.
The Wobby Model Syndrome was added b.c terrain is goofy to play with especially with models that dont actually move and has a base., and so players dont argue, or chip paint. The are trying to lessen arguments (hence the within 1" rules for CC, no more blaster/template weapons and some others).
Wobbly Model still requires you to actually be able to put a model there freestanding.
If there's not room for you to put a model, and leave it freestanding, it can't go there. This means you can prevent charges by making judicious use of terrain.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Vankraken wrote: I feel like this is one of those changes GW made without really putting in a lot of play testing because it sounded "fine" on paper. Reminds me of the whole 7th edition FAQ about drop pod doors being part of the vehicle when folded down so drop pods could take up huge areas of the board.
Absolutely, I have no intention of enforcing this rule in any of my future games. The idea that simply putting a bunch of models on a terrain in a specific way renders them essentially immune to close combat is same level of absurdity as carnifexes not being able to walk through/climb walls that a guardsman can. I can't imagine the amount of frustration and rage an ork or daemon player must feel if they have to deal with this ruling on a daily basis
I can understand non-fly monsters and vehicles etc not being able to climb a 1 story building but what's the point of those monsters being able to stand on a building due to a fly rule when the store you happen to play at doesn't have a single building where they can stand on when there are other troops.
Also a friend of mine just said that even his next tournament refuses to use that rule as it makes melee armies completely redundant.
Units that would've made the charge upstairs will be able to attack things on for example the first floor even if they don't fit up there.
Vankraken wrote: I feel like this is one of those changes GW made without really putting in a lot of play testing because it sounded "fine" on paper. Reminds me of the whole 7th edition FAQ about drop pod doors being part of the vehicle when folded down so drop pods could take up huge areas of the board.
Absolutely, I have no intention of enforcing this rule in any of my future games. The idea that simply putting a bunch of models on a terrain in a specific way renders them essentially immune to close combat is same level of absurdity as carnifexes not being able to walk through/climb walls that a guardsman can. I can't imagine the amount of frustration and rage an ork or daemon player must feel if they have to deal with this ruling on a daily basis
The other week I tried to charge someone with my Morkanaut and they told me I couldn't because my Morkanaut was too large to bit on the 2nd floor (this was even before the FAQ). My Morkanaut was double the hight of where the guy was stood and would simply just crush the building in 1 swing.
Vankraken wrote: I feel like this is one of those changes GW made without really putting in a lot of play testing because it sounded "fine" on paper. Reminds me of the whole 7th edition FAQ about drop pod doors being part of the vehicle when folded down so drop pods could take up huge areas of the board.
Absolutely, I have no intention of enforcing this rule in any of my future games. The idea that simply putting a bunch of models on a terrain in a specific way renders them essentially immune to close combat is same level of absurdity as carnifexes not being able to walk through/climb walls that a guardsman can. I can't imagine the amount of frustration and rage an ork or daemon player must feel if they have to deal with this ruling on a daily basis
The other week I tried to charge someone with my Morkanaut and they told me I couldn't because my Morkanaut was too large to bit on the 2nd floor (this was even before the FAQ). My Morkanaut was double the hight of where the guy was stood and would simply just crush the building in 1 swing.
Yeah that's how it goes :( GW decided to give it base which it really doesn't need so no luck. without base it could attack...Logical!
So morkanaut is standing there doing nothing while cursing base that was stuck under it.
Vankraken wrote: I feel like this is one of those changes GW made without really putting in a lot of play testing because it sounded "fine" on paper. Reminds me of the whole 7th edition FAQ about drop pod doors being part of the vehicle when folded down so drop pods could take up huge areas of the board.
Absolutely, I have no intention of enforcing this rule in any of my future games. The idea that simply putting a bunch of models on a terrain in a specific way renders them essentially immune to close combat is same level of absurdity as carnifexes not being able to walk through/climb walls that a guardsman can. I can't imagine the amount of frustration and rage an ork or daemon player must feel if they have to deal with this ruling on a daily basis
The other week I tried to charge someone with my Morkanaut and they told me I couldn't because my Morkanaut was too large to bit on the 2nd floor (this was even before the FAQ). My Morkanaut was double the hight of where the guy was stood and would simply just crush the building in 1 swing.
Yeah that's how it goes :( GW decided to give it base which it really doesn't need so no luck. without base it could attack...Logical!
So morkanaut is standing there doing nothing while cursing base that was stuck under it.
Does this even need to be FAQd?
Morkanauts are designed to do exactly this, I would imagine.
I think that it might even be better if we just stop reading GW's rules all together.
The actual model needs to mean something.
All that base bizniz is bunk.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mungkorn88 wrote: So I currently play Death Guard, most of my army is melee based, my biggest shooting stuff is a bunch of blightlord terminators and 3 foetid bloat drones and 14 Plague Marines.
I often depend on my Demon Prince or Typhus to slaughter the enemy MEQ/GEQs but with the new Chargerule they don't fit on any area where their usual targets sit.
I expect stuff like Orks to be totally borked in our store since most of the Buildings we use are the ruins that have maybe 2 inches of space.
How do you handle the new Charge-Rules and Wobbly model syndrome? We still handle it that the charge is supposed to go up there but the unit can be placed next to them if they are within reach of the model (stuff like orkboys can stand 1 level below)
I wanna try them out but shooting armies like the Astra Militarum already shot you to death before you could even reach them on most of our tables, I imagine it will just become worse to the point of us basically using houserules.
What is wrong with houserules?
In the end, everything has to make sense,
and we have to be able to make sense of it.
Where the rules as written by GW staffers fail to make sense,
and produce senseless consequences,
then 'forge the narrative' effectively means
don't stop making sense.
Rip those pages out of the rulebook
and replace them with something better.
Might be house rules,
but at least not madhouse rules.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 10:49:08
Does this even need to be FAQd?
Morkanauts are designed to do exactly this, I would imagine.
I think that it might even be better if we just stop reading GW's rules all together.
The actual model needs to mean something.
All that base bizniz is bunk.
Well unless GW changes rules by FAQ it won't be attacking. Models with base measurements are only done from base.
Yeah, this is a silly rule. I'll just let my friends charge me and we will say they're fighting, easy enough
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.Â
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.Â
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.Â
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.Â
Step 1: Shoot or smite a model hiding on the ruin floor in question. The plague spitter the DG daemon prince found in his backpack works well for this, so does Typhus' destroyer hive.
Step 2: Place assault character where that model used to stand.
Sure, the rule is dumb, but most units don't become invulnerable because they are standing in an ruin.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: Step 1: Shoot or smite a model hiding on the ruin floor in question. The plague spitter the DG daemon prince found in his backpack works well for this, so does Typhus' destroyer hive.
Step 2: Place assault character where that model used to stand.
Sure, the rule is dumb, but most units don't become invulnerable because they are standing in an ruin.
Step 1: Go to gw and buy models because they changed the rules to basically require certain models.
Step 2: cry while building your lootas because you iust bought an expensive box that only as 5 6+ up save models with BS 5+.
Step 3: theow your deff dreads in the bin. You thought they looked cool with 4 arms and could do some nice cc but now they can't hurt enemies in front of the .
Step 4: go home crying because your 5 lootas died turn1 with their 6 up save and you need to buy more lootas that take up space you wanted to have that deff dread in. Maybe buy another weirdboy while you're at it even though they don't fit the warband lore you wrote.
Repeat all steps until you're a competitive IG or Soup player. Forget abiut the armies you wanted and buy the ones GW wants you to use. PROFIT!
Step 5: Cry on your deathbed when you realised you spent all your money in life on plastic models just because you wanted to play a game without losing turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 14:01:55
This is how my group has always played it. If you can't place a model within 1" of an enemy on an elevated terrain piece because there is no room, the charge fails, even if you have the distance on the dice. All it really did was change target priorities for what to shoot, as you had to try to kill at least a model or two from the 2nd floor of a ruin to be able to charge them. Charges still happen all the time with this rule, It just means you can't automatically lock up a unit dug into cover with CC without committing some firepower to it. I hear tell grenades work pretty well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 14:10:55
Does this even need to be FAQd?
Morkanauts are designed to do exactly this, I would imagine.
I think that it might even be better if we just stop reading GW's rules all together.
The actual model needs to mean something.
All that base bizniz is bunk.
Well unless GW changes rules by FAQ it won't be attacking. Models with base measurements are only done from base.
Jidmah wrote: Step 1: Shoot or smite a model hiding on the ruin floor in question. The plague spitter the DG daemon prince found in his backpack works well for this, so does Typhus' destroyer hive.
Step 2: Place assault character where that model used to stand.
Sure, the rule is dumb, but most units don't become invulnerable because they are standing in an ruin.
Step 1: Go to gw and buy models because they changed the rules to basically require certain models.
Step 2: cry while building your lootas because you iust bought an expensive box that only as 5 6+ up save models with BS 5+.
Step 3: theow your deff dreads in the bin. You thought they looked cool with 4 arms and could do some nice cc but now they can't hurt enemies in front of the .
Step 4: go home crying because your 5 lootas died turn1 with their 6 up save and you need to buy more lootas that take up space you wanted to have that deff dread in. Maybe buy another weirdboy while you're at it even though they don't fit the warband lore you wrote.
Repeat all steps until you're a competitive IG or Soup player. Forget abiut the armies you wanted and buy the ones GW wants you to use. PROFIT!
Step 5: Cry on your deathbed when you realised you spent all your money in life on plastic models just because you wanted to play a game without losing turn 1.
I'm sure you'll find a shoota or slugga in your army that can kill a model despite 3+ armor making it invulnerable. Also, the OP asked about DG, which have tons of high AP weapons. Just shoot the figgin' ranger with a plasma pistol or something.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Thebiggesthat wrote: If you are losing turn one with Orks, you are doing it wrong. In the last three days I've seen Orks tear through a Salamanders and Blood Angels army.
There are so many more games out there, I'm not sure why some on here don't go play them. Being this angry can't be good for your health
I don't play Green Tide and don't want to. Why don't I leave? This is like asking someone why they don't just leave their family if they they have an argument. I have a lot of investment already in the game from years of play. I have friends who I would no longer see every week when I go to the local GW. I would have no body to play the other games with because I would have to travel far to get to a club that plays anything but 40k and AoS.
Jidmah wrote: Step 1: Shoot or smite a model hiding on the ruin floor in question. The plague spitter the DG daemon prince found in his backpack works well for this, so does Typhus' destroyer hive.
Step 2: Place assault character where that model used to stand.
Sure, the rule is dumb, but most units don't become invulnerable because they are standing in an ruin.
Step 1: Go to gw and buy models because they changed the rules to basically require certain models.
Step 2: cry while building your lootas because you iust bought an expensive box that only as 5 6+ up save models with BS 5+.
Step 3: theow your deff dreads in the bin. You thought they looked cool with 4 arms and could do some nice cc but now they can't hurt enemies in front of the .
Step 4: go home crying because your 5 lootas died turn1 with their 6 up save and you need to buy more lootas that take up space you wanted to have that deff dread in. Maybe buy another weirdboy while you're at it even though they don't fit the warband lore you wrote.
Repeat all steps until you're a competitive IG or Soup player. Forget abiut the armies you wanted and buy the ones GW wants you to use. PROFIT!
Step 5: Cry on your deathbed when you realised you spent all your money in life on plastic models just because you wanted to play a game without losing turn 1.
I'm sure you'll find a shoota or slugga in your army that can kill a model despite 3+ armor making it invulnerable. Also, the OP asked about DG, which have tons of high AP weapons. Just shoot the figgin' ranger with a plasma pistol or something.
Oh that's nice. Shame a lot of my army is mainly cc only. My deff dreads and mega nobz just have to sit around I geuss untill my s4 BS5+ 0ap 1 shot pistols kill a model for my unit to charge in. This is the same arguement as the -3 to hit rules. You should never make another person's model useless! That just throws balance and points out the window.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 15:44:46
Always played it like this, no issues from me. Whilst the game isnt exactly realistic and they obviously are not trying to make it so. Why wouldnt a squad fully occupying a terrain level be able to prevent others from getting onto it? The people that play wobbly model, do you really thibk someone dangling from a wall should be able to attack at full skill? Please...
Nemesis234 wrote: Always played it like this, no issues from me. Whilst the game isnt exactly realistic and they obviously are not trying to make it so. Why wouldnt a squad fully occupying a terrain level be able to prevent others from getting onto it? The people that play wobbly model, do you really thibk someone dangling from a wall should be able to attack at full skill? Please...
Because under these rules a titan can't even get into cc with someone in cover. Not saying a titan needs to but it's one of those 40k rule comedy things. Also there is a nice image going around (not made by me) of a heavy weapons team now being invincible to Ork deff dread.
Because under these rules a titan can't even get into cc with someone in cover.
False, there's no such rule.
lolman1c wrote: Also there is a nice image going around (not made by me) of a heavy weapons team now being invincible to Ork deff dread.
Also false, deff dreads have guns.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Because under these rules a titan can't even get into cc with someone in cover.
False, there's no such rule.
lolman1c wrote: Also there is a nice image going around (not made by me) of a heavy weapons team now being invincible to Ork deff dread.
Also false, deff dreads have guns.
I meant they can't get in cc with someone on the 2nd floor of a ruin so stop being that guy...
And cc deff dreads don't have guns... they have 4 arms. Like many Ork troops they can replace shooting for cc focus. Like a mega nob can take pure cc weaponry.
This ruling seems pretty similar to a developer for a first person shooter game learning about a bug people found where they could glitch themselves into a wall and shoot everyone without getting shot back, then coming out in a set of patch notes and saying "We're not fixing this bug. Players who do this are using perfectly legitimate tactics. Here's exactly where the bug is, and how you do it. We're pretty sure this won't lead to the game being less fun."
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: This ruling seems pretty similar to a developer for a first person shooter game learning about a bug people found where they could glitch themselves into a wall and shoot everyone without getting shot back, then coming out in a set of patch notes and saying "We're not fixing this bug. Players who do this are using perfectly legitimate tactics. Here's exactly where the bug is, and how you do it. We're pretty sure this won't lead to the game being less fun."
The joke is in most online games now you get banned for exploiting glitches and other things.
In the spirit of fairness, wouldn't it be more like the FPS maker responded with "Yeah, it's a possible. If players do $X, they then can do $Y. Our current priorities are new hats for everyone."
I don't know that they've gone on record to say using this gameplay is ideal. They've just gone on record saying this is how it works, while not also committing to doing a fix for it. Or even labeling it an exploit. That's still very different from saying they condone it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 19:55:27
Amishprn86 wrote: Nothing really changed, if you have fly you can go up multi-stories, infantry always could as well... this is nothing new.
You can charge a unit in cover up on floor 2 and they can pile in and consolidate like normal and get to you.
The Wobby Model Syndrome was added b.c terrain is goofy to play with especially with models that dont actually move and has a base., and so players dont argue, or chip paint. The are trying to lessen arguments (hence the within 1" rules for CC, no more blaster/template weapons and some others).
Wobbly Model still requires you to actually be able to put a model there freestanding.
If there's not room for you to put a model, and leave it freestanding, it can't go there. This means you can prevent charges by making judicious use of terrain.
^what DE said.
I like this change, while open to potential exploitation, it also means that terrain can have some actual tactical use beyond an ASM for units inside.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
