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This is a thought I had while thinking through a discussion from a different thread. Turn 1 alpha strike via deep strike, whether assaulty or shooty in nature, was clearly a problem, and GW sought to address said problem with the new tactical reserves rule. Unfortunately their are those of us who feel this change MAY condition the meta toward more "gunlines," or abstractly speaking, armies that can bring

there full 2000 point weight to bear on turn 1 (being theoretically more powerful than armies that have to wait to assemble there full strength over multiple turns). Yes, the change immediately hampers both shooty and assaulty turn 1 deep striking armies, but the aftermath really only severely threatens assault armies in general from being removed from high-end competitive viability - i.e. shooty armies,

whether deep strikey in nature or not, can adapt, many assault armies cannot. Well why not? Because unless said assaulty armies have solid transports for delivering there melee units, or a combination of special rules and stratagems that allows them to charge turn 1 after moving across the whole board, they are now looking to bring there full strength to bear on turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 at the

latest, while again, the shooty army is up and running right from turn 1. It seems to me GW might rather have the player base leaning on transports to fuel there assaults, rather than deep striking in half the army. THIS COULD WORK! But, vehicle disembarkation needs to be changed. My premise is that if disembarkation happens at the end of the movement phase, assault based armies are

transformed immediately, and using transports becomes extremely competitive. Currently the disembarkation before the vehicles move is incredibly awkward for reliable delivery of precious cargo. As once the transport reaches it's desired spot it has to endure a round of the opponents shooting, but more importantly, the opponents ability move units, either away from the assault units inside, or even to

surround the transport and prevent disembarkation. It's a bad system that makes non-flying transports feel counter-intuitive to what they were meant for. Do you agree that disembarkation at the end of the movement phase would rapidly transform assault armies for the better? Let me add that I recognize this rule would have to be restricted to non-supersonic flyers, as they would enable mass turn 1

charges. So the new rule would have to have some sort of restriction such as, "if the transport moved under 20" in the movement phase, it may disembark some or all of it's cargo at the end of the movement phase."

More complex vehicle and transport rules need to exist to have control over limiting or allowing units to close large distances and charge using transports. Back in 7th this was limited to a 6" movement with typical 6" disembark which on turn 1 was just beyond the range of a turn 1 charge unless the opponent went first and moved forward. Now with vehicles and infantry having different movement speeds it's harder to regulate how far each vehicle can move and unload with certain units having a much easier/harder/impossible time making turn 1 charges (if that's what's even desired for the game).

Sure, when you give my Tyranids a land raider equivalent.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sure, when you give my Tyranids a land raider equivalent.

Last time I faced tyranids they seemed to cross the board pretty damn fast without any transports...

I like the idea, but feel such a change will require a lot of playtesting and tweaking certain transports, stratagems and special units rules.

Things like moving in the psi/shooting phase after having disembarked, certain very fast transports. There is bound to be some very OP things hidden in the current ruleset if we just make that change.

If you're only interested in assault, have you considered spending those points on more guys or faster guys rather than transports?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you're only interested in assault, have you considered spending those points on more guys or faster guys rather than transports?

No actually, I was just deep striking my best assault units in turn 1, now that's out, so I'm thinking about the safest and quickest way to deliver my assault units into combat.

The disembarkation rules are fine and quite logical. Yes, it sucks that you have to disembark at the beginning of a turn, but the upside is that you get to move, shoot and assault after disembarking. Remember when you had to disembark at the end of a turn, and then wait until next turn to do anything?

Secondly, the way things are right now, 1st turn charges are a real threat, but they are not easy to come by. And that is how it should be.

HMint wrote:
I like the idea, but feel such a change will require a lot of playtesting and tweaking certain transports, stratagems and special units rules.

Things like moving in the psi/shooting phase after having disembarked, certain very fast transports. There is bound to be some very OP things hidden in the current ruleset if we just make that change.

On the one hand i support this as it makes vet's/SWS/CS's in chimera's more competitive vs scions, on the other hand like you said this may create a bunch of op combo's that need to be addressed.

Assault units coming from transports could use some love, but I like the current turn order for embarking/disembarking, it makes it harder to game the system and don't feel it should be changed

What could and should be done is a rule expanding on open topped transports that works as follows:

If an Open Topped transport completes a charge in the Charge Phase, then at the end of the Charge Phase, it's occupants may disembark. Units disembarking in this fashion must be placed within 1" of a unit that their respective transport declared a charge against, and more than 1" away from any other units. A unit disembarked in this fashion counts as having charged any units that their transport charged this turn.

It gives open topped vehicles a purpose for assault cargo, is very fluffy for the units it would support, and gives open topped craft a specific niche to justify their usual frailty.

pismakron wrote:
The disembarkation rules are fine and quite logical. Yes, it sucks that you have to disembark at the beginning of a turn, but the upside is that you get to move, shoot and assault after disembarking. Remember when you had to disembark at the end of a turn, and then wait until next turn to do anything?

Secondly, the way things are right now, 1st turn charges are a real threat, but they are not easy to come by. And that is how it should be.

Exactly. I fail to see why it's bad for a rhino to get a unit 25" by turn 2 - before they charge.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sure, when you give my Tyranids a land raider equivalent.

I fail to see why Nids would be entitled to a land raider equivalent if transports got buffed.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The disembarkation rules are fine and quite logical. Yes, it sucks that you have to disembark at the beginning of a turn, but the upside is that you get to move, shoot and assault after disembarking. Remember when you had to disembark at the end of a turn, and then wait until next turn to do anything?

Secondly, the way things are right now, 1st turn charges are a real threat, but they are not easy to come by. And that is how it should be.

Exactly. I fail to see why it's bad for a rhino to get a unit 25" by turn 2 - before they charge.

Because they don't. A rhino gets 25" in two turns, your guys don't disembark and charge until turn 3, because disembarkation happens before movement. Vehicles need to enable turn 2 assaults, not turn 3, that's the point.

And before anyone asks the ridiculous question, why should assault units get to assault on turn 2 and not turn 3? Because shooting is up and running at full swing on turn 1.

 peteralmo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The disembarkation rules are fine and quite logical. Yes, it sucks that you have to disembark at the beginning of a turn, but the upside is that you get to move, shoot and assault after disembarking. Remember when you had to disembark at the end of a turn, and then wait until next turn to do anything?

Secondly, the way things are right now, 1st turn charges are a real threat, but they are not easy to come by. And that is how it should be.

Exactly. I fail to see why it's bad for a rhino to get a unit 25" by turn 2 - before they charge.

Because they don't. A rhino gets 25" in two turns, your guys don't disembark and charge until turn 3, because disembarkation happens before movement. Vehicles need to enable turn 2 assaults, not turn 3, that's the point.

And before anyone asks the ridiculous question, why should assault units get to assault on turn 2 and not turn 3? Because shooting is up and running at full swing on turn 1.

Deploy on the line.

Turn 1 - Move 12". Advance 3.5".
Turn 2 - Deploy within 3", which gets you 3.9". Move 6". That's 25" before you charge.

Or have I missed something?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The disembarkation rules are fine and quite logical. Yes, it sucks that you have to disembark at the beginning of a turn, but the upside is that you get to move, shoot and assault after disembarking. Remember when you had to disembark at the end of a turn, and then wait until next turn to do anything?

Secondly, the way things are right now, 1st turn charges are a real threat, but they are not easy to come by. And that is how it should be.

Exactly. I fail to see why it's bad for a rhino to get a unit 25" by turn 2 - before they charge.

Because they don't. A rhino gets 25" in two turns, your guys don't disembark and charge until turn 3, because disembarkation happens before movement. Vehicles need to enable turn 2 assaults, not turn 3, that's the point.

And before anyone asks the ridiculous question, why should assault units get to assault on turn 2 and not turn 3? Because shooting is up and running at full swing on turn 1.

Deploy on the line.

Turn 1 - Move 12". Advance 3.5".
Turn 2 - Deploy within 3", which gets you 3.9". Move 6". That's 25" before you charge.

Or have I missed something?

You can't roll 3.5 on a d6.
I agree incidentally. Transports work fine currently.

increasing the range of first turn arrival, making it -D3 inches to charge range or giving vehicles or Monsters an upgrade to prevent things landing within 12" each of those would be more viable and balanced options then basically no deepstriking turn 1, theres currently special rules, scouts or infiltrator units that help negate alpha strike already

 Sim-Life wrote:


You can't roll 3.5 on a d6.

I believe you have. That first turn IF YOU GO FIRST, that rhino does nothing aside from pop smoke. Then your opponent kills you 10 wound metal box and you lose 2-3 guys. If you go second, you opponent doesn't even need to kill them. Deal 5 damage to a rhino and the whole reason you spent 80 points on the thing is null. It'd be great if assault armies had some magic button to halve or quarter the range of their opponent's shooting for the rest of the game from 240" away.

I still don't understand why being able to assault turn 1 is such a faux pax. When was the last time a gun line wasn't deployed at the back edge of its zone? At best assault heavy armies have to cross ~24" of no man's land. The only reason I didn't just call hammer&anvil games is because I could bloodletter bomb my opponent and hopefully get that 40%chance charge off to force a unit out two to fall back, maybe even get lucky and charge a tank.

Super off topic, but the ruins changes can die in a fire. Won't be too long before AM park all their basilisks and wyverns on a skyshield or two to give them a 5++ AND make them assault proof.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I believe you have. That first turn IF YOU GO FIRST, that rhino does nothing aside from pop smoke. Then your opponent kills you 10 wound metal box and you lose 2-3 guys. If you go second, you opponent doesn't even need to kill them. Deal 5 damage to a rhino and the whole reason you spent 80 points on the thing is null. It'd be great if assault armies had some magic button to halve or quarter the range of their opponent's shooting for the rest of the game from 240" away.

I still don't understand why being able to assault turn 1 is such a faux pax. When was the last time a gun line want deployed at the back edge of its zone? At best assault heavy armies have to cross ~24" of no man's land. The only reason I didn't just call hammer&anvil games is because I could bloodletter bomb my opponent and hopefully get that 40%chance charge off to force a unit out two to fall back, maybe even get lucky and charge a tank.

You need more than one rhino and other things their anti-tank want to focus on. You need to force a choice on them. If all you have is a single rhino when trying to assault you're going to have a bad time. But if you have 3 rhinos and 2 predators then either they ignore the predators and still have to kill the troops after or they shoot the predators and get caught in melee.

It takes 8 or so lascannon shots on average to take down a rhino and a bit over 4 basilisks. Does your opponent have 16 to 24 lascannons? Not likely. 9 basilisks? Possibly, but then that's 65% of their list.

ADDITIONALLY you're more likely to finish deploying first, which gives you a 58% chance to take first turn.

There are plenty of turn 1 assaults available, Making standard transports capable of doing so just brings us back to square one.

Super off topic, but the ruins changes can die I a fire. Won't be too long before AM park all their basilisks and wyverns on a skyshield or two to give them a 5++ AND make them assault proof.

They're more than welcome to pay 110 to 220 points for an extra pip on their save against a lascannon.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I believe you have. That first turn IF YOU GO FIRST, that rhino does nothing aside from pop smoke. Then your opponent kills you 10 wound metal box and you lose 2-3 guys. If you go second, you opponent doesn't even need to kill them. Deal 5 damage to a rhino and the whole reason you spent 80 points on the thing is null. It'd be great if assault armies had some magic button to halve or quarter the range of their opponent's shooting for the rest of the game from 240" away.

I still don't understand why being able to assault turn 1 is such a faux pax. When was the last time a gun line want deployed at the back edge of its zone? At best assault heavy armies have to cross ~24" of no man's land. The only reason I didn't just call hammer&anvil games is because I could bloodletter bomb my opponent and hopefully get that 40%chance charge off to force a unit out two to fall back, maybe even get lucky and charge a tank.

You need more than one rhino and other things their anti-tank want to focus on. You need to force a choice on them. If all you have is a single rhino when trying to assault you're going to have a bad time. But if you have 3 rhinos and 2 predators then either they ignore the predators and still have to kill the troops after or they shoot the predators and get caught in melee.

It takes 8 or so lascannon shots on average to take down a rhino and a bit over 4 basilisks. Does your opponent have 16 to 24 lascannons? Not likely. 9 basilisks? Possibly, but then that's 65% of their list.

ADDITIONALLY you're more likely to finish deploying first, which gives you a 58% chance to take first turn.

There are plenty of turn 1 assaults available, Making standard transports capable of doing so just brings us back to square one.

Super off topic, but the ruins changes can die I a fire. Won't be too long before AM park all their basilisks and wyverns on a skyshield or two to give them a 5++ AND make them assault proof.

They're more than welcome to pay 110 to 220 points for an extra pip on their save against a lascannon.

I don't think he's concerned with the +1 armor save, but rather the new rules enabling of blocking off chargers from getting into combat. I'm not actually worried about it though, it's so blatantly a mistake I'm sure it will get fixed promptly.

I play Wyches and I support this message.

Seriously, though, I think it could work if balanced properly. Might be the type of thing that was better as a stratagem, though.

Transports are fine as they are (except the land raider, he could use an help).

Rhinos are really cheap for what they bring to the table, and i expect them to become a staple in SM assault/close range lists.

I reckon you could do this with one change to the transport rules:

- A unit embarked on a Transport may Disembark at the beginning of the Charge Phase, unless the Transport moved more than 10” total that turn for any reason (such as Advancing or the use of Psychic Powers or Stratagems) before the unit Disembarks.

It sets a hard cap on shenanigans and power combos, it frees transports and their passengers from endless cat and mouse scenarios and lends assault units a boost. It’s after the Movement and Psychic Phases so there are no shenanigans I can think of that will let the unit move again after disembarking to shorten their charge distance.

Technically it allows the dreaded Turn 1 Assault (dun dun dun!), but only on a 9” charge if they start 24” away from their target. You might ask ‘hang on, how is that different from just letting people deep strike turn 1 then?’, but the answer is that, rather importantly, they can’t just turn up anywhere on the board, and they have to pay for a transport.

If you’re still concerned about a Turn 1 Assault, amend the above hard restriction to not allowing disembarkation if the vehicle moved more than 9”. This makes it a 10” charge first turn, which is very dicey even with rerolls.

This was the case back in 3rd with the Blood Angels rhino assault armies.

Given the high speed of 8e vehicles you'll just see the same thing - turn 1 and the entire army will be in combat. You might as well just play the game on a 12" wide board.

I think the practically 10 inch move out of a transport puts them in a pretty good place.

However when building a list, spending 400 pts on transports does feel a bit like you are gimping yourself.

Plus imperium don't have that many lethal combat units that can jump out of a transport.

 peteralmo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I believe you have. That first turn IF YOU GO FIRST, that rhino does nothing aside from pop smoke. Then your opponent kills you 10 wound metal box and you lose 2-3 guys. If you go second, you opponent doesn't even need to kill them. Deal 5 damage to a rhino and the whole reason you spent 80 points on the thing is null. It'd be great if assault armies had some magic button to halve or quarter the range of their opponent's shooting for the rest of the game from 240" away.

I still don't understand why being able to assault turn 1 is such a faux pax. When was the last time a gun line want deployed at the back edge of its zone? At best assault heavy armies have to cross ~24" of no man's land. The only reason I didn't just call hammer&anvil games is because I could bloodletter bomb my opponent and hopefully get that 40%chance charge off to force a unit out two to fall back, maybe even get lucky and charge a tank.

You need more than one rhino and other things their anti-tank want to focus on. You need to force a choice on them. If all you have is a single rhino when trying to assault you're going to have a bad time. But if you have 3 rhinos and 2 predators then either they ignore the predators and still have to kill the troops after or they shoot the predators and get caught in melee.

It takes 8 or so lascannon shots on average to take down a rhino and a bit over 4 basilisks. Does your opponent have 16 to 24 lascannons? Not likely. 9 basilisks? Possibly, but then that's 65% of their list.

ADDITIONALLY you're more likely to finish deploying first, which gives you a 58% chance to take first turn.

There are plenty of turn 1 assaults available, Making standard transports capable of doing so just brings us back to square one.

Super off topic, but the ruins changes can die I a fire. Won't be too long before AM park all their basilisks and wyverns on a skyshield or two to give them a 5++ AND make them assault proof.

They're more than welcome to pay 110 to 220 points for an extra pip on their save against a lascannon.

I don't think he's concerned with the +1 armor save, but rather the new rules enabling of blocking off chargers from getting into combat. I'm not actually worried about it though, it's so blatantly a mistake I'm sure it will get fixed promptly.

It isn't a 'change' as that was how the rules always functioned. Neither is it a mistake.

StarHunter25 wrote:
The only reason I didn't just call hammer&anvil games is because I could bloodletter bomb my opponent and hopefully get that 40%chance charge off to force a unit out two to fall back, maybe even get lucky and charge a tank.

40% charge chance? I take it for some reason you did not give them a banner of blood and an instrument, giving them 3D6+1 charge range, with rerolls from either command points or being really really anrgy, which takes their charge odds up pretty high...

Mark.

Surely if you want your transport to get up the field to unload some assault troops you need to present your opponent with another dangerous threat for him to target? If you're just packing all your eggs in one basket and hoping it will get there, of course it will get shot off the table and leave the troops stranded, What specifically are you wanting to transport?

I think the assaulting from vehicle flowchart should look like the following:

1) Include transport in your army list (this is where many people fail, maybe GW should FAQ how to get past this part)

2) Deploy assault unit inside of transport during set-up (see, this can be tricky because everyone seems to think swords come from the heavens in 40K)

3) Move transport up a few inches turn 1, deploy defensive countermeasures to preference (means pop smoke)

4) Take wounds (see, this is the important part: the bad guy is shooting at your box instead of your guys)

5) Disembark, if necessary, move forward movement + 3" if you successfully disembarked (if you did not successfully disembark, this means that your transport is slag... you should immediately evacuate the rubble, but remember the bad guys are that way... move appropriately)

6) Try to remember how to shoot your sword, if that's something you fancy.

7) Run towards the other guy and chop to taste.

But many people forget step 1, because they think the transport is bad... largely because they forget step 4.

 Silentz wrote:

However when building a list, spending 400 pts on transports does feel a bit like you are gimping yourself.

Plus imperium don't have that many lethal combat units that can jump out of a transport.

In a way, but taking transports denies them effectiveness with part of their army. The transports then become overwatch soakers and many of them have decent shooting. If I take a Rhino with two Stormbolters then it's a bit like having a full squad of tac marines on the table. That has some nominal value.

A unit doesn't need to be Sanguinary Guard to tie up units in combat. It doesn't need Thunder Hammers to be effective.