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What does the Rule of 3 units mean with the same base unit but different weapons loadout?

For example i bring 3 heavy weapons teams equipped with mortars

does that mean i cannot bring additional heavy weapons teams even if they are equipped with a different weapon option such as lascannons?

if this isn't limited would it also affect differently armed squad leaders (e.g 4 veteran squads with plasma. 2 sergents have laspistols &chainswords 2 have bolt pistol & chainswords

operkoi wrote:
What does the Rule of 3 units mean with the same base unit but different weapons loadout?

For example i bring 3 heavy weapons teams equipped with mortars

does that mean i cannot bring additional heavy weapons teams even if they are equipped with a different weapon option such as lascannons?

if this isn't limited would it also affect differently armed squad leaders (e.g 4 veteran squads with plasma. 2 sergents have laspistols &chainswords 2 have bolt pistol & chainswords

Rule of 3 is based on Datasheets, not loadouts.

If you bring 3 HWT with Mortars, that's your lot.

Yeah if the datasheet has the same name, it's the same datasheet.

If the Index datasheet has a different name, however, they didn't close that legal loophole.

 doctortom wrote:
If the Index datasheet has a different name, however, they didn't close that legal loophole.

Examples?

Also, I THINK, and if I am wrong someone can correct me but...


Can't guard buy mortars as part of normal units of guardsman (Troops, not affected by rule of three)? Seems you can do some ugly spam with that...

JmOz01 wrote:
Also, I THINK, and if I am wrong someone can correct me but...


Can't guard buy mortars as part of normal units of guardsman (Troops, not affected by rule of three)? Seems you can do some ugly spam with that...

Yes but it is a lot more expensive because your paying for 8 extra guardsmen per mortar.
So much so that a single infantry squad with mortar is more then 33% more expensive then 3 mortars in a heavy weapons team.

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If the Index datasheet has a different name, however, they didn't close that legal loophole.

Examples?

Daemon Prince vs Daemon Prince of Nurgle. There's been threads here about it they're the same or not.

 doctortom wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If the Index datasheet has a different name, however, they didn't close that legal loophole.

Examples?

Daemon Prince vs Daemon Prince of Nurgle. There's been threads here about it they're the same or not.

Ah, thanks

-

 Ordana wrote:

JmOz01 wrote:
Also, I THINK, and if I am wrong someone can correct me but...


Can't guard buy mortars as part of normal units of guardsman (Troops, not affected by rule of three)? Seems you can do some ugly spam with that...

Yes but it is a lot more expensive because your paying for 8 extra guardsmen per mortar.
So much so that a single infantry squad with mortar is more then 33% more expensive then 3 mortars in a heavy weapons team.

Ohh, not saying it is AS good as the previous way, just that it is still very spamable....Especially if you include a special weapon guy in the mix and use it to "build up" your detachments...Not as good, but still okay

If you bring 3 Heavy Weapon Teams that’s only one Heavy Weapons Squad unit.

You could pick that unit three times in your army, for a total of 3 Heavy Weapon Squads = 3 x 3 Heavy Weapon Teams.

How about different Codexes?
Is Codex Space Marines Devastator Squad datasheet the same as Codex Dark Angels Devastator Squad datasheet for "number of times each datasheet can be included"?

 danyboy wrote:
How about different Codexes?
Is Codex Space Marines Devastator Squad datasheet the same as Codex Dark Angels Devastator Squad datasheet for "number of times each datasheet can be included"?

I would say it depends if the Dataslates have different names or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont.

 danyboy wrote:
How about different Codexes?
Is Codex Space Marines Devastator Squad datasheet the same as Codex Dark Angels Devastator Squad datasheet for "number of times each datasheet can be included"?

That's a very good question. They might have the same name, but they have very different Keywords. The exact wording is "NUMBER OF TIMES EACH DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED".

The key word here is "Datasheet". Are two datasheets that have the same name necessarily the same datasheet? My personal opinion would be no. The names might be the same but they have different keywords, thus different rules. It's no different to how Explodes has the same name among different things but isn't always the same rule. Or Open-Topped.

In other words, are the two Datasheets 100% identical, down to the keywords and exact wording of every single rule? If the answer is yes, they are the same Datasheet. If the answer is no, then they are not. An ULTRAMARINES Aggressor Squad is not the same as a BLOOD ANGELS Aggressor Squad because they are not the same datasheet. One has <CHAPTER> (which is now ULTRAMARINES) and one has BLOOD ANGELS (which is explicitly spelled out as unable to be picked for <CHAPTER> ).

So my official opinion is that unless GW releases an FAQ to the contrary, they are not the same datasheet. However if they did release an FAQ saying that for the purposes of that rule it's the name of the datasheet that is important, I can accept that as clarificatory instead of Special Snowflake rules ignoring.

 danyboy wrote:
How about different Codexes?
Is Codex Space Marines Devastator Squad datasheet the same as Codex Dark Angels Devastator Squad datasheet for "number of times each datasheet can be included"?

If both datasheets have the same name, then yes. The dark angels captain is called master. Its not the same datasheet as a SM captain. This allows you to use three SM captains and three DA masters.

 p5freak wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
How about different Codexes?
Is Codex Space Marines Devastator Squad datasheet the same as Codex Dark Angels Devastator Squad datasheet for "number of times each datasheet can be included"?

If both datasheets have the same name, then yes. The dark angels captain is called master. Its not the same datasheet as a SM captain. This allows you to use three SM captains and three DA masters.

"You can only include the same datasheet in a Battle-forged army up to a maximum number of times..."

The Dark Angel Devastator Squad and the Space Marine Devastator Squad have the same name at the top, they are both listed as "Devastator Squad"

Are you saying that those two Datasheets are "the same datasheet"?

Because they look like different Datasheets to me.

It's debatable.
As a precedent for other matched play restrictions, psychic powers with the same name have been confirmed to be considered the same when it comes to restrictions, despite effecting different keywords.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The Dark Angel Devastator Squad and the Space Marine Devastator Squad have the same name at the top, they are both listed as "Devastator Squad"

Are you saying that those two Datasheets are "the same datasheet"?

Because they look like different Datasheets to me.

Well, they are not 100% the same datasheets because the keywords are different. The question is, what does GW mean when they say "NUMBER OF TIMES EACH DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED" ? RAI probably is that you cannot use the same unit more than 3 times. But, are dev squads from DA and SM the same unit ? I would say yes. But, GW may rule otherwise.

It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

I agree it's debatable, but only in the sense that GW have not defined what makes a datasheet the "same" as another. Is it just the name or the entire datasheet that has to match? That's the core issue and both arguments have their merits.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

Haha, I like to surprise now and then. I just don’t see how you can argue a Datasheet with different Keywords from a different book is the same Datasheet. It’s visibly and demonstrably different. It interacts differently with other units. It’s not the same.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

Haha, I like to surprise now and then. I just don’t see how you can argue a Datasheet with different Keywords from a different book is the same Datasheet. It’s visibly and demonstrably different. It interacts differently with other units. It’s not the same.

While I agree in principle, a lot of this game this edition just deals with the names of things (such as psychic powers with the same name from different books counting as the same power though they may have different keywords that are affected by it), so it's very possible that if every type of Devastator datasheet simply says "Devastators" then they may count as the same datasheet despite having different wargear options/keywords.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

I agree it's debatable, but only in the sense that GW have not defined what makes a datasheet the "same" as another. Is it just the name or the entire datasheet that has to match? That's the core issue and both arguments have their merits.

No it is not truly debatable. People on the "they are the same Datasheet" side are just ignoring the facts.

A Blood Angel Dev Squad is demonstrably not the same as a Dark Angels Dev squad witch is demonstrably not the same as an Ultramarines Dev Squad...

Ergo they can not be the same Datasheet at all. But people are ignoring the facts to seem like it is debatable, when their argument is just wrong.

"The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase." Yet via FAQ we're told that Stratagems and Powers with the same name are the same even if they have different keywords.

Is this a case of Special Snowflake FAQ being applied to Stratagems and Powers or an indication that only the name needs to match to be considered the "Same" stratagem.

They recently errata'd a Stratagem name from "Kill Shot" to "Killshot", so the name is important.

Yes existing game design tells us to treat same name things as the same for restriction purposes. So id go with that.

# I also think its brilliant that someone out there was running 6+ chaos predators and saying killshot was a different strat to kill shot so it could be used twice.
As someone who owns 6+ chaos predators in kinda sad I didn't know about it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No it is not truly debatable. People on the "they are the same Datasheet" side are just ignoring the facts.

A Blood Angel Dev Squad is demonstrably not the same as a Dark Angels Dev squad witch is demonstrably not the same as an Ultramarines Dev Squad...

Ergo they can not be the same Datasheet at all. But people are ignoring the facts to seem like it is debatable, when their argument is just wrong.

It doesnt matter what you think and what i think. It is debatable until GW says how its done.

 doctortom wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
If the Index datasheet has a different name, however, they didn't close that legal loophole.

Examples?

Daemon Prince vs Daemon Prince of Nurgle. There's been threads here about it they're the same or not.

Leman russ demolisher. Though with 40+ russ hulls IG can take not that they really need that one.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

I don't think it's an issue at all though. The data sheets are different. If they were the same the older one would be invalid - eg Index Captain vs Codex Captain.

What is debatable though is whether or not a Salamanders Predator is the same as a Black Templars Predator. I believe it is technically the same, but the question then becomes (from a balance pov) why it's OK to have 3 BA, 3 Da and 3 UM Predators, but not eg 3 each of Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Fists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase." Yet via FAQ we're told that Stratagems and Powers with the same name are the same even if they have different keywords.

Is this a case of Special Snowflake FAQ being applied to Stratagems and Powers or an indication that only the name needs to match to be considered the "Same" stratagem.

They recently errata'd a Stratagem name from "Kill Shot" to "Killshot", so the name is important.

So if they errata it fine - until then Dark Angels Devastators and Blood Angels Devastators are visibly, demonstrably different Datasheets. You might think the intent is for them to be the same but the RAW doesn’t back you up currently. Just seems like a rule you don’t like etc. etc. (am I doing it right? Those RAI guys, eh? )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not debatable. They’re different Datasheets.

Well we're debating it, so it's inherently debatable.

(Also, was expecting this response, but really not from you. Perhaps dakka nonsense is infectious..)

I don't think it's an issue at all though. The data sheets are different. If they were the same the older one would be invalid - eg Index Captain vs Codex Captain.

What is debatable though is whether or not a Salamanders Predator is the same as a Black Templars Predator. I believe it is technically the same, but the question then becomes (from a balance pov) why it's OK to have 3 BA, 3 Da and 3 UM Predators, but not eg 3 each of Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Fists.

Unless they issue an FAQ or Errata those units have different Keywords and Datasheets in different books. They aren’t the same. Sucks for the multi-flavour Marine Codex but that’s how it is. If people start spamming via diff Chapter Detachments you can be sure they’ll rule on it - if not, they’re simply not the same Datasheet.