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Have 50 dollars burning in my pocket and a mixed Scions (1 battalion) and Custodes (1 battalion) force. Looking through the AM codex and appreciate how cool the Bullgryns look.

A 42-point Bullgryn with the power maul and bullgryn storm shield (4++) doesn’t seem much worse than a 52-point or so Custodes guardian with spear (if you forget the CP buffs).

You guys have any thoughts whether I should add 3 Bullgryns or just 3 more Custodes guardians to my force?

I’m leaning toward the Bullgryns because they look cool but if the Custodes are uber better, I’ll just add another guardian squad.

Actually Bullgryns, specially supported Bullgryns, are some of the best meele units out there, so yeah. If you prefer them, buy them.

Bullgryns are one of the most durable units in the game for the points.

Take a Vexillus Praetor with Vexilla Defensor and take the Slab shield (+2 to saving throws) on the bullgryns. You now have a 3++ against shooting. Then cast either/or nightshroud and psychic barrier to get a -1 to hit or +1 to saving throws for a 2++. You can also use Take Cover to get +1 to your saving throws for another route to 2++.

If you want a 2++ against melee too, take Saint Celestine instead of the Vexillus. This will require a Sisters of Battle detachment though, so you're probably best off taking the Vexillus route.

Since GW hasn't hit this with any mention in the FAQs thus far, it's probably not going to get nerfed. Have fun, and remember to take 9 of them to really pour the salt on.

Bullgryns are one of the absolute best melee units in the game. You'll not go wrong with them.

KinGensai wrote:
Bullgryns are one of the most durable units in the game for the points.

Take a Vexillus Praetor with Vexilla Defensor and take the Slab shield (+2 to saving throws) on the bullgryns. You now have a 3++ against shooting. Then cast either/or nightshroud and psychic barrier to get a -1 to hit or +1 to saving throws for a 2++. You can also use Take Cover to get +1 to your saving throws for another route to 2++.

If you want a 2++ against melee too, take Saint Celestine instead of the Vexillus. This will require a Sisters of Battle detachment though, so you're probably best off taking the Vexillus route.

Since GW hasn't hit this with any mention in the FAQs thus far, it's probably not going to get nerfed. Have fun, and remember to take 9 of them to really pour the salt on.

I don't think is worth to have so many things invested in them.

But if you have a mixed Astra Militarum+Custodes army is trivial to put those Bullgryns with Slab Shields near a Vexilla Defensor for that sweet sweet 3++. With a unit of 9, just run them across the board.

 Galas wrote:


I don't think is worth to have so many things invested in them.

But if you have a mixed Astra Militarum+Custodes army is trivial to put those Bullgryns with Slab Shields near a Vexilla Defensor for that sweet sweet 3++. With a unit of 9, just run them across the board.

How is this a lot of investment? He probably already has at least one Praetor in his list, so he's literally just taking bullgryns with no other additional investment. CPS are pretty much free since IG is involved (Kurovs + GS warlord trait + IG brigade nets at least 20 CPs, making Take Cover a trivial expenditure).

This unit is braindead. A few hard counters exist, but they are so off the wall that you'll only occasionally run into them (one of them being Kastellans double-shooting with Wrath of Mars) and the rest of the time they will attackmove until the enemy is driven away or destroyed. I don't understand how GW thought slab shields were OK in their current form when they have removed every other route to a 2++ besides the shadowfield.

KinGensai wrote:

 Galas wrote:


I don't think is worth to have so many things invested in them.

But if you have a mixed Astra Militarum+Custodes army is trivial to put those Bullgryns with Slab Shields near a Vexilla Defensor for that sweet sweet 3++. With a unit of 9, just run them across the board.

How is this a lot of investment? He probably already has at least one Praetor in his list, so he's literally just taking bullgryns with no other additional investment. CPS are pretty much free since IG is involved (Kurovs + GS warlord trait + IG brigade nets at least 20 CPs, making Take Cover a trivial expenditure).

This unit is braindead. A few hard counters exist, but they are so off the wall that you'll only occasionally run into them (one of them being Kastellans double-shooting with Wrath of Mars) and the rest of the time they will attackmove until the enemy is driven away or destroyed. I don't understand how GW thought slab shields were OK in their current form when they have removed every other route to a 2++ besides the shadowfield.

Yeah, after posting that I thought again and having a Imperial Guard psyker casting those powers is really just irrelevant, if you are already running an Imperial Guard detachment. You are right.

I think the reason we don't see Bullgryns nerfed is because in the big tournament formats they aren't really that usefull, and Imperial Guard is heavely nerfed by making movility so important. But outside of those house-ruled formats, yeah, Bullgryns are a little insane in how much damage they can take.

Also, the Bullgryn plastic kit is excellent, it magnetizes well if that's your thing, and they paint up quickly and beautifully. I wish I could run a whole army of them.

 Galas wrote:

Yeah, after posting that I thought again and having a Imperial Guard psyker casting those powers is really just irrelevant, if you are already running an Imperial Guard detachment. You are right.

I think the reason we don't see Bullgryns nerfed is because in the big tournament formats they aren't really that usefull, and Imperial Guard is heavely nerfed by making movility so important. But outside of those house-ruled formats, yeah, Bullgryns are a little insane in how much damage they can take.

I don't see why they aren't useful. They laugh at most traditional forms of firepower available, they are quite resiliient to massed Heavy Bolter shooting, and heavy weapons aren't really able to break them so the 3 wpm really starts to hurt. They do have a lack of mobility, but they are backed up by a supremely capable ranged faction, so they have the covering firepower to help soften up the enemy's shooters. They can easily project power into the middle of the board by turn 2 and threaten the center sphere on turn 3, making space control a much more difficult proposition. The new beta rules concerning deep strike give Bullgryns yet another turn to cover space and push deep strikers back away from the IG gunline. I don't consider that a bad investment for around 500 points.

KinGensai wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Yeah, after posting that I thought again and having a Imperial Guard psyker casting those powers is really just irrelevant, if you are already running an Imperial Guard detachment. You are right.

I think the reason we don't see Bullgryns nerfed is because in the big tournament formats they aren't really that usefull, and Imperial Guard is heavely nerfed by making movility so important. But outside of those house-ruled formats, yeah, Bullgryns are a little insane in how much damage they can take.

I don't see why they aren't useful. They laugh at most traditional forms of firepower available, they are quite resiliient to massed Heavy Bolter shooting, and heavy weapons aren't really able to break them so the 3 wpm really starts to hurt. They do have a lack of mobility, but they are backed up by a supremely capable ranged faction, so they have the covering firepower to help soften up the enemy's shooters. They can easily project power into the middle of the board by turn 2 and threaten the center sphere on turn 3, making space control a much more difficult proposition. The new beta rules concerning deep strike give Bullgryns yet another turn to cover space and push deep strikers back away from the IG gunline. I don't consider that a bad investment for around 500 points.

Me neither, bust I was just trying to find a reason to why they aren't really used at all in those big tournaments like Adepticon, NOVA, LVO, etc...

KinGensai wrote:

 Galas wrote:


I don't think is worth to have so many things invested in them.

But if you have a mixed Astra Militarum+Custodes army is trivial to put those Bullgryns with Slab Shields near a Vexilla Defensor for that sweet sweet 3++. With a unit of 9, just run them across the board.

How is this a lot of investment? He probably already has at least one Praetor in his list, so he's literally just taking bullgryns with no other additional investment. CPS are pretty much free since IG is involved (Kurovs + GS warlord trait + IG brigade nets at least 20 CPs, making Take Cover a trivial expenditure).

This unit is braindead. A few hard counters exist, but they are so off the wall that you'll only occasionally run into them (one of them being Kastellans double-shooting with Wrath of Mars) and the rest of the time they will attackmove until the enemy is driven away or destroyed. I don't understand how GW thought slab shields were OK in their current form when they have removed every other route to a 2++ besides the shadowfield.

I had a blast removing them from the table with Death Hex and a Vindicator.

 MacPhail wrote:
Also, the Bullgryn plastic kit is excellent, it magnetizes well if that's your thing, and they paint up quickly and beautifully. I wish I could run a whole army of them.

My fiance just bought me 3 boxes of bullgryns for my birthday because I loved the model. I didn't realize they were so competitive.

 Galas wrote:

Me neither, bust I was just trying to find a reason to why they aren't really used at all in those big tournaments like Adepticon, NOVA, LVO, etc...

Good target for alphas. Gives up 5 points in Adepticon secondary if you kill it. ITC Gangbusters would also get you 4. Some seriously hard counters will show if you invest too much into them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Me neither, bust I was just trying to find a reason to why they aren't really used at all in those big tournaments like Adepticon, NOVA, LVO, etc...

Good target for alphas. Gives up 5 points in Adepticon secondary if you kill it. ITC Gangbusters would also get you 4. Some seriously hard counters will show if you invest too much into them.

Yeah, thats what I tought. And for that reason, as they aren't seen in those big tournaments, they aren't really nerfed.

 Galas wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Me neither, bust I was just trying to find a reason to why they aren't really used at all in those big tournaments like Adepticon, NOVA, LVO, etc...

Good target for alphas. Gives up 5 points in Adepticon secondary if you kill it. ITC Gangbusters would also get you 4. Some seriously hard counters will show if you invest too much into them.

Yeah, thats what I tought. And for that reason, as they aren't seen in those big tournaments, they aren't really nerfed.

Personally I think they'd do just fine if you built your army around them. It's also one of those "do I want to make an effort with this unit or deepstrike and shoot?". Now that the easy choice is gone I think they'll be more popular.

I suppose that makes sense. They got caught in the cross fire of the primarchs, and ITC also punishes you for taking it if the opponent is able to nullify ++ saves or do mortal wounds en masse. My particular counter was 24 sniper drones, which incidentally do ok against other targets.

Even without their ++ save though, they are sitting on a 1+ armor, so they can get pretty annoying to remove if they managed to park in cover for a turn.

Thanks guys! I’ll get me some Bullgryns (and small magnets). You can arm a few of them with 12 inch flamethrowers (the gauntlet guns) to soften up blobs before you hit them I see...

Good to hear they're decent. Maybe I'll get some as well. How should one equip them?

The meele varian with Slab Shield is the best one. Just give them some form of invulnerable save to add that +2 to save throws and make them a rock.

The grenade-launcher variant looks cool but is not that great, but they are very easy to magnetize so...

Interestingly in this edition you seem to be able to have either weapon with either shield, and even have a mixed squad (though that probably is not a good idea.)