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I have a question about grand strategist (the guard warlord trait that allows CP regen on a 5+) and how it interacts with some pre game strategems I'll be using in a tournament soon. Going to be running both custodes and BA allies. Namely, can I use the warlord trait to regen the CP I spend if I drop the warlord first during deployment. The main question is 'can I use these after deployment but before the game begins' allowing me to regen the CP as the warlord would be on the table by then

- Victor of the blood games is used when the character is set up (so I assume I can)
- 'Open the vaults' says it is used 'before the battle' does this mean before the 1st turn, or before deployment? The wording is the same for the guard and BA relic stratagems.
- 'Death visions of sanguinius' is used 'when mustering your army' - I assume this is before deployment so I can't regen?

If anyone has any advice on this it'd really help - BA and custodes are so thirsty for CP it really makes me consider whether I can sustain both in one list even with 20CP haha.

From the adeptus custodes FAQ :

Q: Can Captain-General Trajann Valoris use his Moment
Shackle ability to regain Command Points when a Stratagem is
used during deployment?
A: Yes, provided Captain-General Trajann Valoris is on
the battlefield when you use the Stratagem.

When your character with grand strategist is on the battlefield you can roll to see if you get CP.

Yes, grand strategist works on victor of the blood games. The rules dont define when "before the battle" is, its unclear if you can roll for CP. The rules also dont define at which point you muster your army. This is up to you, dont do it before your grand strategist is deployed

Mustering your forces" is also GW's fluffy way of saying as the model is deployed. So you can also use it for DVOS.


Relics however are purchased in the list building stage (before the game begins) and thus cannot be re-coupped by the WL trait or any other means.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Mustering your forces" is also GW's fluffy way of saying as the model is deployed. So you can also use it for DVOS.


Relics however are purchased in the list building stage (before the game begins) and thus cannot be re-coupped by the WL trait or any other means.

Other way around I think. I've always read people say "mustering" as fluffy "list building" while the Relic strat can absolutely be used during deployment.

That said, "before the battle" doesn't occur often for comparison. Really just on Relic stratagems and the Space Marine upgrade to Chapter Master that I know of. I'd say deployment is certainly "before the battle" though.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Mustering your forces" is also GW's fluffy way of saying as the model is deployed. So you can also use it for DVOS.


Relics however are purchased in the list building stage (before the game begins) and thus cannot be re-coupped by the WL trait or any other means.

That isn't exactly accurate, though. Relics are purchased and distributed "before the battle." Most of us do that when we're building our lists, yes, but there is no "list-building stage" for any kind of rules purposes, and the rules never define "before the battle."

Is "before the battle" before the first battle round begins? Before deployment? Before determining deployment map and zones? Before creating the battlefield? Before determining mission?

Covered in the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Mustering your forces" is also GW's fluffy way of saying as the model is deployed. So you can also use it for DVOS.


Relics however are purchased in the list building stage (before the game begins) and thus cannot be re-coupped by the WL trait or any other means.

That isn't exactly accurate, though. Relics are purchased and distributed "before the battle." Most of us do that when we're building our lists, yes, but there is no "list-building stage" for any kind of rules purposes, and the rules never define "before the battle."

Is "before the battle" before the first battle round begins? Before deployment? Before determining deployment map and zones? Before creating the battlefield? Before determining mission?

That was my main problem - does 'before the battle' mean 'before turn one starts' or 'before deployment'. I think the relic stratagem is unclear. The other two seem pretty clear to me, I'd agree that 'mustering forces' sounds like when you pick them for your army list, rather than when you put them on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Covered in the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

OK I stand corrected haha. Didn't realise that one existed.

No worries, it’s new! It does mean you can’t regen any before the battle Strat CPs.

Ah, yeah, didn't see that either. Actually didn't even realize that had released a new rulebook FAQ in addition to the big FAQ.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Covered in the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Beautiful! For once, an elegant solution!

Though I will standby "mustering your army" as ALSO being before the battle. Especially with that FAQ ruling.

DVOS falls under the stratagems that are used on characters as they are deployed.

There are a few examples of such, and they all happen when you deploy the model. So yes, if your warlord or relic that lets you regain CP is already on the table you can use them in response.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
DVOS falls under the stratagems that are used on characters as they are deployed.

No. DVOS is used when "mustering your army". Neither rules nor FAQ specify when that is. Its undefined.

 p5freak wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
DVOS falls under the stratagems that are used on characters as they are deployed.

No. DVOS is used when "mustering your army". Neither rules nor FAQ specify when that is. Its undefined.

In my totally uninformed opinion, mustering is equivalent to writing your army list, or in open play gathering your collection of models.
It is when you decide what datasheet you are using, and determine any datasheet variables.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, p187 only war mission, you "muster your army from the miniatures in your collection."

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Mustering your forces" is also GW's fluffy way of saying as the model is deployed. So you can also use it for DVOS.


Relics however are purchased in the list building stage (before the game begins) and thus cannot be re-coupped by the WL trait or any other means.

That isn't exactly accurate, though. Relics are purchased and distributed "before the battle." Most of us do that when we're building our lists, yes, but there is no "list-building stage" for any kind of rules purposes, and the rules never define "before the battle."

Is "before the battle" before the first battle round begins? Before deployment? Before determining deployment map and zones? Before creating the battlefield? Before determining mission?

Difference comes clear on tournaments. Can you buy additional relics on tournament games? Or even in regular game showing up and seeing what I'm up against. Ie is that sort of list tailoring intended.

I know I would instantly in a tournament to pay additional CP to get relic of lost cadia the moment chaos army shows up...

Local tournaments at least allows altering warlord traits and relics etc after seeing list but before deploying objectives etc

 p5freak wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
DVOS falls under the stratagems that are used on characters as they are deployed.

No. DVOS is used when "mustering your army". Neither rules nor FAQ specify when that is. Its undefined.

It’s not undefined. It’s before you start deploying, ergo before the battle.

Read the relic paragraph.

If you take a relic it must be noted in your army.
If you buy relics must write them down.

You don't get cp

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Read the relic paragraph.

If you take a relic it must be noted in your army.
If you buy relics must write them down.

You don't get cp

where are you quoting from?

Why are we fighting about Relics still? There's an on point FAQ answer for this one. I love big arguments but GW resolved this one pretty neatly.

Audustum wrote:
Why are we fighting about Relics still? There's an on point FAQ answer for this one. I love big arguments but GW resolved this one pretty neatly.

Where do you see the FAQ on relics? I checked all of the pdf's and didn't find any mention of the word 'relic' when I did a control-F. I'm betting I just missed it, but it would be awesome to have a straight source and page.

Thanks!

wraithcs wrote:Why are we fighting about Relics still? There's an on point FAQ answer for this one. I love big arguments but GW resolved this one pretty neatly.

Where do you see the FAQ on relics? I checked all of the pdf's and didn't find any mention of the word 'relic' when I did a control-F. I'm betting I just missed it, but it would be awesome to have a straight source and page.

Thanks!

All relic stratagems say "before the battle". As JohnnyHell posted, "before the battle" was FAQ'd:

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

I am pretty sure that relics are not refunded, as they are decided before deployment (so your warlord is not on the table). But could this mean that, deploying warlord first, he can refund cp for tallarn deployment?

 Spreelock wrote:
I am pretty sure that relics are not refunded, as they are decided before deployment (so your warlord is not on the table). But could this mean that, deploying warlord first, he can refund cp for tallarn deployment?

Spot on - this is correct.

 Spreelock wrote:
I am pretty sure that relics are not refunded, as they are decided before deployment (so your warlord is not on the table). But could this mean that, deploying warlord first, he can refund cp for tallarn deployment?

If your warlord is on the table when you use ambush he can refund CP.