Feedback request; returning Terminators to 2nd edition style.

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**Elbows**

The group I play 40K with is all in agreement that Terminators of pretty much any stripe are terribly overpriced, and we rarely take them - despite liking them quite a bit as models.

So, we're introducing a few simple fixes to help encourage it. Nothing game-breaking, but I'd like your opinion on a points-reduction question.

1) We're allowing <TERMINATOR> keyword models to ride in Rhinos like they could back in 2nd edition (each taking two spots as expected)

2) We'd like to revert to making the 'Deep Strike' function optional, as you used to pay extra for it in 2nd edition. This will reduce the cost of Terminators, but you'll lose a tactical option (replaced by the ability to put them in a Rhino if you so choose). How much would you detract from a Terminator model for losing it's Deep Strike capability? We'd apply this to all types, including Marine/CSM characters.

I was thinking of subtracting between 6-10 points per model, but can't really decide which. CSM terminators are more expensive at 31 points per model, where normal Space Marine terminators are 26 points per model. Suggestions? What do you think is a fair cost to delete the 'Deep Strike' ability?

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'm not a fan of them being able to ride in Rhinos.

**Elbows**

Noted. Next?

**Bharring**

Not a lot of points, although Termies could use a minor points drop as-is.

Are you doing 10 Termies in a Rhino or 5?

**Elbows**

No, as per the old rules, a Terminator takes up the spot of two normal marines. I'm tempted to even bring back the days of popping Dreadnoughts in the Rhinos.

**Valkyrie**

Yeah it just seems odd for them to go in a Rhino.

**warpedpig**

They do need a fix for damn sure.

**Insectum7**

Elbows wrote:
No, as per the old rules, a Terminator takes up the spot of two normal marines. I'm tempted to even bring back the days of popping Dreadnoughts in the Rhinos.

Ahh, I remember those days.

As for Deep Strike, Imo it's a big value-add for the squad. But 10 points would be too much. Just on base stats and armament, a Terminator is sorta two marines and a Powerfist with better armor. A linear points comparison gets you about where they're at now. Of course, actual value is more nebulous than linear point for point, but thats why I think a drop by 10 would be too much.

**Elbows**

So, maybe 6-8 points? Dropping a squad by either 30 or 40 points per five? Again, it would just be an optional house rule if you felt like setting up your Terminators in your deployment zone or hustling them round in a Rhino or a Land Raider, etc.

What's amusing is that people think it's odd to put Terminators in a Rhino, whereas I find it extremely odd that you can't nowdays.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It's just that they've not done that in several years and mobility is the least of their issues. It's always been their damage output and durability as a combo.

Now we fixed the durability issue (they're the most durable they've been in years. Get over it), now we need to just fix the offense issue, which my suggestion of WS/BS2+ scales fairly well.

**Elbows**

Oh, I agree. They were WS/BS 5 in the old days as well (translating to a 2+ before modifiers). Now modifiers were much more prevalent then so it wasn't nearly as good as a current 2+ shooting value.

This is where the issue of the 2+/6+ skill system breaks down, unfortunately. However, I feel that's more of a real change than I'd like to make.

**Insectum7**

Don't forget they all had targeters too, so a BS of 6, effectively.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Elbows wrote:
Oh, I agree. They were WS/BS 5 in the old days as well (translating to a 2+ before modifiers). Now modifiers were much more prevalent then so it wasn't nearly as good as a current 2+ shooting value.

This is where the issue of the 2+/6+ skill system breaks down, unfortunately. However, I feel that's more of a real change than I'd like to make.

That's partly an issue with sticking to D6, but with the modifiers that exist as is, I think it works out pretty well. It doesn't scale horribly, which is more my concern of course.

**jhe90**

Tech wise they can see what the other can. Maybe a +1 overwatch is Sgt alive like he directing his squads fire and so.?

With Thete weapons like bolters it'd hardly over powered.
And veterans with heavy armour the steady aim. +1 over watch not a bad idea.

**Slayer-Fan123**

jhe90 wrote:
Tech wise they can see what the other can. Maybe a +1 overwatch is Sgt alive like he directing his squads fire and so.?

With Thete weapons like bolters it'd hardly over powered.
And veterans with heavy armour the steady aim. +1 over watch not a bad idea.

Being charged isn't an issue though. I'd rather that just be a Strategem of some kind for Marines to use.

**pelicaniforce**

How has it gone so far? I'd start out high at nine points/model, 45 points per squad, and then raise points back up if you do really well.

Forty or fifty points per army isn't going to over charge your games. OTOH if it weren't for rhinos being so spendy, you probably wouldn't have to lower the points on terminators at all.

**Andykp**

I thought you meant second edition like making there save a 3+ on 2D6. Negative modifiers were more common then and bigger so maybe wouldn't work to well.

**Marmatag**

Ways to die in 8th edition:
1. Low toughness
2. Bad invulnerable save or no invulnerable save
3. Low wounds
4. Low mobility
5. No viable transport options

Ways to not kill your target in 8th edition:
1. Low strength weapons
2. Low number of shots/attacks
3. Low number of models
4. Bad AP on weapons

Terminators exemplify every challenge a unit might face in 8th edition. There is no simple fix.

**Ma'ra'Kaelis**

I was thinking about the 3+ on 2d6 save for termies too

That'd solve some problems (but not the mortal wounds). Makes dice rolling a bit complicated though.

The idea of putting Terminators in Rhino's again is kind of appealing. Tactically they would be much more fun/mobile. Especially Chaos terminators, Cataphract/Tartaros ones.
Since Ogryns fit in Chimera's, why not Terminators in Rhino's. Good point. I'd like to use my Terminators more as well.

Points wise they aren't so different from Primaris marines and Biker marines. Except for better armor (and/or attacks in case of bikers). Primaris Reivers can buy 'teleportation' for +2 points, so that sounds like a reasonable discount. Maybe +3/-3 with termies as they are a bit better.
The main cost issue with normal Terminators is the mandatory powerfist (though a powerfist is a mighty weapon). If the powerfist (for non characters) would be cheaper then all termies could cost about the same (chaos seems a bit overpriced now, in base cost).

So around 23 points would be a good base cost for Terminators I guess. Without any teleportation.

Option to buy Teleportation for +2 points. And a Teleport Homer for another +1 point. Or get yourselves a Rhino/Landraider ride.

by the way,
I kinda hope they make the Chaos terminators cheaper. Even though they pack a punch (when upgraded with combi and super-charged with CP's), they are inferior to Loyalist terminators point for point.

**Polonius**

Terminators are a mess. They finally fixed them by giving them two wounds... and then made almost anything that is good at killing terminators increased damage.

Oh, and terminators still take a penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons.

I would say go big. Make them durable, good in a firefight, and punchy with the following changes:

Add a rule that terminators never suffer more than one damage from any wound.

Make them WS2+/BS2+.

Make the heavy flamer option heavy 2d6, with 10" range.

**Slayer-Fan123**

This is why the majority of you shouldn't be in charge of anything gaming related with Warhammer 40k.

**AlmightyWalrus**

How are Chaos Terminators worse than Loyalist ones? They get Combi-weapons!

**Slayer-Fan123**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How are Chaos Terminators worse than Loyalist ones? They get Combi-weapons!

That's all though. They need the increase to WS/BS2+ as well.

**Polonius**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is why the majority of you shouldn't be in charge of anything gaming related with Warhammer 40k.

I don't think every idea in this thread (even my own) is great, but terminators were flawed in design right out of the box. They're only slightly more durable (in practice) than in prior editions, which should have been pretty obvious even prior to the codices. The change in deep strike was really just the final nail in a pretty well built coffin.

They are, without question, more durable against weight of fire type attacks, but with the new AP rules, mid AP multi damage weapons (which are often some of the best) really threaten them. Things like Battle cannons, which they used to shrug off on a 2+, now take them to a 4+ with d3 damage. Once in combat, while the new unweildy rules guarantee that they swing, they are less effective with the -1. You end up with a unit that's meant to be a tough, powerful elite unit that's not particularly tough that also doesn't punch all that hard.

And it's across the board, too. No army really leans on it's terminators, and aside from some interesting combi-spam chaos builds, it's actually tough to even think of useful ways to use them. Just dropping the point cost doesn't really "fix" them.

IG bullgryns show that multi-wound infantry can be good in the current game, even if they really, really want some buffs for full effect (a priest and astropath), but similar buffs are usually really pricy for marines.

**Andykp**

They weren't bad right out of the box, in 1st edition they were awesome and cost a quarter of your army for a squad, that were the only deep striking units and the only 2+ save infantry around (back then power armour was only 4+). Absolute beasts with great new weapons. U have reminded me of that so maybe they should go to the top of the pile for infantry based armour again. +1t, 2+ and can't be modified or something crazy, but it should cost you loads. I remover taking terminators was a commitment due to high points cost.

So either it is the be all and end all of armour or you accept it has been superseded by more advanced armour in the last 1000 years the game has been around. IMO.

My problem with them now Is they are shorter than a primaris marine. Can't field them as they look silly next to one.

**Northern85Star**

Andykp wrote:
They weren't bad right out of the box, in 1st edition they were awesome and cost a quarter of your army for a squad, that were the only deep striking units and the only 2+ save infantry around (back then power armour was only 4+). Absolute beasts with great new weapons. U have reminded me of that so maybe they should go to the top of the pile for infantry based armour again. +1t, 2+ and can't be modified or something crazy, but it should cost you loads. I remover taking terminators was a commitment due to high points cost.

So either it is the be all and end all of armour or you accept it has been superseded by more advanced armour in the last 1000 years the game has been around. IMO.

My problem with them now Is they are shorter than a primaris marine. Can't field them as they look silly next to one.

Use normal marines as proxies for primaris. Either go all primaris or all space marine list. Dont feed the GW scam like a tool.

**=Angel=**

Elbows wrote:
Suggestions? What do you think is a fair cost to delete the 'Deep Strike' ability?

About the price of a rhino? Thereabouts? Deep strike places you in double/quadruple tap range at full strength, turn 2 at the latest. Rhino does the same if it isn't killed by enemy fire, but requires some skill to use, with a model that can block LOS/assault as tradeoff.

**Kharneth**

I'd reduce the cost by a percentage over a flat rate. More expensive terminators, assuming are more powerful, would get more bang for their buck for deep striking. The CSM termies are 38 pts with combi bolter and power axe. 20% off is 7.6, 25% off is 9.5. Round however you like. I don't know the points cost for space marine terminators, but if they are cheaper than I think they shouldn't take as many points off for losing deep strike.

Personally, I'd probably drop about 15% of the units price for the loss of deep strike. Though, to be honest, I'd rather put my terminators in a rhino than deep strike them anyway so if I had the option to put 5 in a rhino I'd be doing it while paying full price.

The biggest reason I cannot justify taking them is because they're so expensive and can't put out enough damage. My berserkers are far cheaper and kill way more.

**Backspacehacker**

wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

**techsoldaten**

Backspacehacker wrote:
wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

Yeah... I would rather see them justify their cost then get better transport options.

The saving throw is what matters, there's too much AP negative shooting right now. Rolling 2d6 for every save would slow down the game, maybe rerolls to all failed saves? Not counting invulnerable?