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Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

So with the closure of the Gun Control thread, my question concerns the difference between a political thread, a current event thread, or a general topic thread.

With politics, it would seem that a topic should have political relavance. For me, the reason I initially mentioned anything about guns was because of Oence speaking at the NRA. It seemed relevant to the political arena, with the NRA being a big influence in politics and Pence being Pence.

But guns and gun control as a general topic doesn’t seem to be political, unless there is a political connection to talk about. If we are talking about a party platform change, a court case, a candidate stance, then sure there is a political connection. But the history of the 2A and why rapes are higher in Europe and if access to guns increase school shootings; all those things don’t really feel like they have a political aspect without an actual political interaction such as a bill or court case. There are a few discussions in the OT right now that could also fall into “this issue is political/politicized and should be folded into politics” category.

And what about a current event involving guns? They will be political before bodies get cold, can they still exist or do we need to fold them into the politics thread because there might be a partisan stance on this issue?

The reason I made the other thread was not because I wanted to Lee a political gun discussion from locking the general politic thread, I made it because without any actual political issue dealing with guns right now it didn’t seem like a political issue. Obviously I disagree with the lock of that thread, but I would love some clarification on that issue.

If it’s just a case of “it’s politics when I feel like it’s politics” without any clear guidance, then I guess it is what it is.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

From the US Politics thread:
 Manchu wrote:
(2) Stay On-Topic

This is a catch-all thread for US Political topics. If you have any questions about what should or should not be posted ITT you can always PM a moderator before posting.
The operative phrase is "catch-all thread." Don't conflate "politics" with "news" or even "current events" (interpreted as the current news cycle). Indeed, the less connected to a specific event that can be narrowly discussed a political/politicized conversation becomes, the more that conversation belongs in the US Politics thread. I suspect that many event-based threads will in future be locked with directions to continue in the US Politics thread (given that many threads go off the rails by becoming generalized beyond the specific discussion).

As I noted when I locked the superfluous US Gun Politics thread that you started, the preeminent instruction for discussing US Politics on Dakka Dakka was that it be done in a single thread only. The corollary is that the US Politics thread covers everything that could reasonably be considered US politics. Gun politics is not a corner case. To the contrary, no topic could possibly fall more squarely within the ambit of US politics generally. Discussing gun control in the US Politics thread is no reason to lock the US Politics thread. What might get it locked is if posters generally ignore this advice:
 Manchu wrote:
It is okay to disagree. Disagreement does not justify personal attacks. All argument should be about points rather than about posters. Flamebaiting is not allowed, either. This means, phrasing posts in such a way that would be likely to personally insult other posters (generalized/passive aggressive phrasing [.e.g., "people who think X are dumb"] is a common example). Furthermore, if you think someone is breaking Rule One the ONLY appropriate action is to report that post to the staff via the Yellow Triangle in the top right of the offending post. Do NOT retaliate. And keep in mind, Legoburner has created the useful Ignore button.
As you will recall, the ban on discussing US Politics did not automatically forbid discussion of specific events (like massacres, terrorits attacks, etc). Although, as explained above, those threads may eventually need to be locked/merged into US Politics on a case-by-case basis, there is still no (and there never was a) blanket ban on starting a thread to discuss a specific current event that touches on, as many things in some way do, US politics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 17:25:52


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

So the US Politics thread is not just about discussing actual US politics, but also any topic that may have some political and/or partisan slant to it in the United States?

Lumping "topics where viewpoints may be divided into partisan camps" in with "talking about actual political topics and events" fee just feels a bit forced and doesn't actually acknowledge that there are distinctions. Conspiracy theories often have a political slant to them, should we merge that thread? Bill Cosby and #MeToo has political overtones. People being bitchy is driven by partisan issues on social media and in person. ISIS. Those are some of the issues in the OT right now that seem like they would fit the "stuff that could be political", but they don't actually have anything to do with what is happening in politics.

It feels like the Politics thread should be about actual current events in US Politics, not just a dumping ground for anything that may or may not be political. I always figured it to be more about "Current Events in US Politics", if that makes sense.

But if it is actually more of a "if a Democrat and a Republican will disagree on this topic, post in here only" kind of thread, then I will take it as a lesson learned.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

When it comes to whether/to what extent there is a constitutional right to own firearms, we're not talking about some theoretical possibility of partisan disagreement. This issue is one of the tectonic plates of American politics. It is irrelevant that there is not a specific news story touching on the issue in today's paper.

While the US Politics thread is definitely a "dumping ground" (indeed, that's the point), it is not for "anything that may or may not be political." To reiterate, the thread covers everything that could reasonably be considered US politics. That certainly covers news stories about Senator X saying Y or the latest Trump scandal, etc. But it also covers a poster arguing that taxes should be lower, teachers need to be paid more, the government should guarantee a chicken in every pot, and so on. General discussion of general political sentiments go in this generalized thread.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick follow-up question, somewhat related as far as my motivation for making the other thread:

With the politics thread, will there be any chance in how the hecklers veto is often used? Many topics frequently result in a few people cranking up the stupid in a thread resulting in a thread lock and a “don’t start another thread” warning. Gun threads are often victims of that behavior, and I didn’t want to end up with any political talk getting shut down because of a heckler’s veto against gun control discussion. Will there be more actions against individuals rather than having a collective shutdown of the whole thread, or at least limit any shutdown to an in-thread “no more gun talk for now” warning?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 18:43:09


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Ah sorry, I didn't see your edit until now. IIRC we have different views of the so-called "heckler's veto." In my view, that is a pretty specific tactic where a poster demonstrates a particular topic can't continue within the bounds of our rules without just stamping down one side of the conversation, in which case it is more equitable to stamp down both, i.e., lock the thread.

By contrast, the reason discussion of US Politics was previously banned is that posters generally were unable to distinguish arguing points from insulting each other. This wasn't a one-sided issue. This wasn't a problem with one or just a few posters. Throughout April, however, posters in US Politics did a pretty great job keeping a civil tone while disagreeing, so I know it is possible even considering these divisive times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 17:43:55


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Yeah, usually the heckler's veto type thing is more often used when specific topics are brought up. Gun control is often one of those topics, which is why was worried about the political thread getting locked because of how that specific topic frequently ends up.

Although we've made it through guns and abortion now without too much issues, so maybe we can manage.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

Follow up:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Riquende wrote:
 whembly wrote:

The USA has over 300 million private guns (that we know of). You don't think so Mussolini-wanna be would factor in that calculus whether or not he'd be successful?


Yes of course, they would ensure the majority of the private gun owners make up their base.


Please would people keep their US Guns comments in the US Guns thread? You know the one...


 d-usa wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
What's your complaint?


That one MOD shut down the gun thread because it’s politics, and another one is now arguing that guns should stay out the politics thread.

I thought it was fairly self explanatory based on your post and Manchu’s posts.

Manchu wrote:Gun politics in the US is US politics. If you don't want to talk about gun politics in the US Politics thread, that's fine. But we are not having multiple US Politics threads much less a series of "monthly" threads of splinter topics.


 Manchu wrote:

The corollary is that the US Politics thread covers everything that could reasonably be considered US politics. Gun politics is not a corner case. To the contrary, no topic could possibly fall more squarely within the ambit of US politics generally..


The moderators will be happy to shut down all US politics threads if people are unable to conduct themselves appropriately.


Will the moderators be happy to answer the actual question?

Let’s try it as simple as possible:

MOD #1 shut down a gun thread because guns are politics and should be in the politics thread.
MOD #2 says guns should not be in the politics thread and should be in the gun thread.

Can we get some sort of agreement between the MODs who can then let us know which way they actually want this issue to be handled?

I’m really not trying to be a dick here. But less than a month ago I did exactly the thing you did: try to keep guns out of this thread. I made multiple mod alerts, which were ignored. I made a gun thread, which was locked because “guns are politics”. I made a thread in N&B to clarify, and it was made clear that yes, guns = politics.

And now it’s a 180 and “keep the guns out of here” is the message. I have no problem following the rules, but it helps to know what the rules are.


   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The Santa Fe Shooting thread went the way of many similar topics, losing sight entirely of the actual events and broadening to a discussion on US Politics. As such, I have locked it. The US Politics thread is now locked for other reasons but as/when it is re-opened, the discussion of gun politics in the United States should naturally continue in the US Politics thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/31 20:51:21


   
Made in ro
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





 Manchu wrote:
The US Politics thread is now locked for other reasons but as/when it is re-opened...


What's that about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...?

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Works for the criminal justice system!

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

For what it's worth, the politics thread is now open again. So, all gun control policy debate can head over there now.

Sorry for the mixed messages, d-usa (I think it's also because when things like this happen, a bit of mixing is unavoidable in the ensuing discussion). But our goal is, general policy discussion the Politics thread!

Link:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3210/753985.page#10005410
   
 
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