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Made in gb
Norn Queen






So, one 3 wound model is less durable than 3 one wound models simply due to how multiple damage mechanics work, but making all excess damage spill over is a silly idea because it would turn Plasma guns into the undisputed king of anti-hoard weapony, so lets go for a middle ground.

We change this line
If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.
to this
If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage and is destroyed, the unit takes mortal wounds equal to half the excess damage, rounding down. For example if a Tactical Marine (1 wound) suffers damage from a Rokkit (3 damage), the two excess damage is halved to 1, and the unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
This way a Plasma Gun overcharged (and other 2 damage weapons) can't spill over, while 3 and 4 damage weapons can inflict an extra mortal wound instead of being wasted (so can kill two 1 wound models instead of 1), 5 and 6 damage weapons can do 2 mortal wounds, etc.


or if you want to keep real world rounding rules, you can change it to
If a model loses several wounds from an attack that deals 3 or damage and is destroyed, any excess damage and is destroyed, the unit takes mortal wounds equal to half the excess damage, rounding up. For example if a Tactical Marine (1 wound) suffers damage from a Rokkit (3 damage), the two excess damage is halved to 1, and the unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/04 03:42:31


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Nah, just give the proper price to any model or equipment. Encouraging to bring a significant number of infantries is a very good thing.

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






This, like all these suggestions, hurts small elite units more than hordes.

So the horde looses 1 extra guy from MW bleed over. On the other hand the unit of 5 marines now looses 2 models instead of 1. A significantly bigger blow and they don't even get their armor save on the second one.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Except thats not what it promotes, it the cheapest of the cheap infantry, special rules infantry and invulnerable saves/fnp.
Basic infantry isn't a big thing, its msu for detachments, CP's and screening. If they bring some firepower all the better, but their job inst to be part of the fight, its just dying slowely and giving up as few points.
It's not infantry to fight it's just a speed bump of dead bodies, that gave their lives for CP.

Ninja'd
Agree doesn't help more elite armies without a FNP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/04 11:59:34


 
   
Made in ie
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Kildare, Ireland

Hordes. And aren't large units more vulnerable to taking heavy casualties and suffering mortal wounds through morale checks?

Your proposed problem seems to be high damage weapons being wasted on chaff troops- that would be working as intended.

If a player has presented only chaff units to your heavy guns and big multiwound units to your D1 small arms, that player is playing skillfully. Go ahead and fire lascannons at the conscripts.

Meanwhile your proposed solution is clunky and could result in 3 tac marines getting blasted away by a single lascannon shot. It also forces you to halve and round down excess damage for each shot- when the majority of damage falls into 6 or less, this will be a fancy way of determining 1 or 2 extra casualties.

In other words:
Land raider fires at a tac squad. 4 lascannons- 3 hit and wound.
Roll for damage- 6, 4, 3.
It takes 1 point of damage to kill a marine - : leftover damage is 5, 3, 2, halving to 2, 1, 1= 4 mortal wounds.

7 tactical marines die.

Beyond the fact that bonus mortal wounds turn high damage weapons into infantry mulchers, you are describing an issue that is playing as intended and proposing a solution that slows the game down.

I cannot recommend the premise or the conclusion of your post.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Whether or not this idea would provide the intended solution without causing other problems, I don't see how wrong it would be for a lascannon to blast through an extra space marine or two. I mean, I don't imagine that giant laser hitting a space marine and then dissipating. I imagine it slicing through the marine and striking the ground behind him. Whose to say it couldn't blast through another marine?

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Make elite units cheaper. There, fixed.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






I don't think this would have the intended fix. I think anti armour weapons should be penalised for firing against non-armoured units. Give them a -1 to hit when firing against something other than a vehicle or monster. This has the bonus of hopefully making TEQs more survivable. They could also add special weapons that deal the sort of damage we'd associate with a Lascannon without the -1 to hit against none Vehicle or Monster targets.

If you played Eternal Crusade firstly, unlucky, but secondly you'll know how hard it is to hit a marine/ork/craftworlder with a Lascannon meant for tanks.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





The biggest issue I see is that the 'anti-horde' weapons (flamers, frag weapons, and most anti-infantry artillery) are terrible against their supposed intended targets. My thought on what could be done comes from how barbed stranglers work for nids right now. If the target is 10+ models, they get +1 on their hits rolls. So.. why not extent that rule, or things with similar trigger mechanics, to these supposed horde clearing weapons.
So lets go with a quick one, the humble flamer. Add a special rule on most, if not all of the old flamer template weapons, that adds a minimum number of hits clause for every 10 models in the target unit. So a full tactical squad takes d6, Minimum 2 hits. 40 conscripts takes minimum 5.
For the fragmentation type weapons like the Tau AFP, Whirlwinds castellan missiles, frag/plasma missiles, could have a rule where casualties caused by that weapon are doubled for morale purposes. I know this adds in some annoying bookkeeping, but we're nerfing hordes right?
For the psychic armies out there, perhaps reintroduce the concept of nova powers from 6/7th. Where all models within x distance take a Strength x ap-y damage 1 hit.
Maybe add that +1 to hit rule to a bunch of the old large blast low strength weapons.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




for blasts provide an additional hit for every "x" models in the target units (e.g. x=10, you fire a flamer at a unit of 30 ork boyz, you get 1d6+3 automatic hits)
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There really isn't a fundamental mechanic that favors Guard over Marines. Guard are undercosted and Marines are overcosted. The only possible anti-horde weapons are S3/4 with no AP. Point cost should take care of the rest (extra wound on single models should be cheaper than more models).
Example:
20 S4 shots vs 5 pt guard and 12 pt marines:

-Guard: 20*2/3*2/3= 8.88 W (44 pts killed)
-Marines: 20*1/2*1/3= 3.33 W (40 pts killed)

With morale as it is, that Guard squad is gonna run bringing the total to 50 pts removed. Meanwhile the marine squad only fails morale on a 5 or 6 which you can reroll, which will keep it at 40 pts removed. All things considered the S4 gun is 25% more point effective against horde than elite. Not a bad start I think.
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Why not if a unit has more than 10 models it's +1 to hit?

GW has been striving for simple rules so this kinda goes in line
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Guardsmen only come in 10 man squads now.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Agree, high damage has no business being good against hordes.

What we need is a blanket rule change for blasts and flamers, which make them scale. The main issue with hordes is that very few anti-horde weapons actually do their job well.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






Bringing back AP5 in some form would go a long ways. Most anti-horde weapons got 33% worse against GEQ since they lost all AP. I have no clue how to do it though. Bolters and pulse rifles used to flat out kill guardsmen in the open.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






That does nothing against daemons, pox walkers or ork boyz though. Units of 10 dudes are not a horde.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Weapons that used be template, blast or large blast should generate more hits, and most of they should also be way cheaper. Especially flamers and heavy flamers.

17 points for an average 3.5 autohits at S5 AP-1? Lol. They should be 10 points or 2D6 (at least) with an average of 7 autohits.

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Blackie wrote:
Weapons that used be template, blast or large blast should generate more hits, and most of they should also be way cheaper. Especially flamers and heavy flamers.

17 points for an average 3.5 autohits at S5 AP-1? Lol. They should be 10 points or 2D6 (at least) with an average of 7 autohits.


I think most people forget that in 7th everyone spread out their models to the max to minimize the effect of templates and blasts and as a result small blasts generally hit 1 or no models, 3 if they were dumb and you were VERY lucky. Large blasts hit 0-3 most of the time and templates could sometimes catch around 3 depending on if they chained their unit out.

Flamers causing a potential 12 hits for 10 points while having AP and str 5 makes them ridiculously powerful.

So far the only suggestion worth a damn is +1 to the hit roll for every 10 models in the unit.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Weapons that used be template, blast or large blast should generate more hits, and most of they should also be way cheaper. Especially flamers and heavy flamers.

17 points for an average 3.5 autohits at S5 AP-1? Lol. They should be 10 points or 2D6 (at least) with an average of 7 autohits.


I think most people forget that in 7th everyone spread out their models to the max to minimize the effect of templates and blasts and as a result small blasts generally hit 1 or no models, 3 if they were dumb and you were VERY lucky. Large blasts hit 0-3 most of the time and templates could sometimes catch around 3 depending on if they chained their unit out.

Flamers causing a potential 12 hits for 10 points while having AP and str 5 makes them ridiculously powerful.

So far the only suggestion worth a damn is +1 to the hit roll for every 10 models in the unit.

The difference between 7th and 8th is too great to really do a direct comparison as I don't remember anyone ever fielding 300+ invantry and no vehicals as an army in 7th.
However even if they did with better infantry weapons sporting AP5 or AP6 shooting infantry weapons at infantry was effective and massed infantry fire didn't scare vehicals/monsters.

Also templates and blast weren't confined to targeting 1 unit in 8th they are now. If they took up 80 of their deployment zone you were hitting something even with scatter.
Infantry spam works because killing infantry efficently is a stuggle for a number of codex's in 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/05 12:40:54


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Lance845 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Weapons that used be template, blast or large blast should generate more hits, and most of they should also be way cheaper. Especially flamers and heavy flamers.

17 points for an average 3.5 autohits at S5 AP-1? Lol. They should be 10 points or 2D6 (at least) with an average of 7 autohits.


I think most people forget that in 7th everyone spread out their models to the max to minimize the effect of templates and blasts and as a result small blasts generally hit 1 or no models, 3 if they were dumb and you were VERY lucky. Large blasts hit 0-3 most of the time and templates could sometimes catch around 3 depending on if they chained their unit out.

Flamers causing a potential 12 hits for 10 points while having AP and str 5 makes them ridiculously powerful.

So far the only suggestion worth a damn is +1 to the hit roll for every 10 models in the unit.


I agree but 8th edition encourages the spam of cheap troops, thanks to multi damage weapons and the AP which isn't "all or nothing" like in the past when AP4 or AP5 didn't matter against 3+ save and now AP-1 or AP-2 hurt 3+ save dudes quite badly, and not every army can afford (or actually have) those expendable units. In 7th hordes were very lackluster and it would make sense if blasts and templates became more powerful in 8th, but in fact it's just the opposite.

Flamers were also way better, just consider ork burnas which only grant D3 autohits. 10D3 autohits are not remotely comparable to 10 templates in terms of generated hits, even if the opponent used to spread out his miniatures. But even regular flamers are now weaker than before while costing basically twice their previous cost.

IMHO flamers should be 5 points and heavy flamers 10 points. They have short range, which means they should hit something 2-3 times per game, and they usually can't be spammed very easily for cheap. That's their drawback. At 9 and 17 points flamers are just pure garbage.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




only two ways you can really address hordes:

1. scale the point values, so some units may be cheaper as they get larger, others more expensive

2. scale how hordes actually work, so a unit fo 20 is not twice as dangerous as a unit of 10 - perhaps not allowing LoS to be drawn through friendly models without a penalty so a large mob doesn't allow everyone to fire in the same way they cannot all always fight
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

I think one thing we lost that helped against some hordes was the rule sweeping advance. Could such a mechanic help against hordes and even buff melee? Failed morale in melee and the unit gets wiped out.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gitdakka wrote:
I think one thing we lost that helped against some hordes was the rule sweeping advance. Could such a mechanic help against hordes and even buff melee? Failed morale in melee and the unit gets wiped out.


How many hordes actually care about morale though?
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Even ic all hordes cared about melee, a instant automatic wipe of an entire unit is a bs mechanic.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Is there a faction with a codex that lacks the tools to deal with hordes? I thought most codexes had a fee tools for dealibg with hordes?
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Reintroducing AP by a special rule "This weapon ignores saves of 5+ or worse." seems like a good idea.

Scaling flamers should also work quite well. "The number of hits dealt by this weapon is equal to the number of models in the targeted unit, devided by 3." (Maybe add a minimum number of hits.)

The average chance of killing a horde model over all typical horde units should be around 1/2, so a flamer working like that should kill between 5 and 6.5 models of a full unit. On the other hand, 3 or 5 model units barely suffer any damage.

Only few armies are able to put more than 3 flamers into a single unit that can deliver them reliably. Therefore you can kill about half of a horde units models.

To clean up the rest, you still need another kind of weapon, which I think is nice because it adds a strategy component by making the players think about the flamers bolter-type weapons ratio and way of delivering.
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Martel732 wrote:
Make elite units cheaper. There, fixed.


Make Elite Armies Horde Armies, if all armies are Horde Armies, then Horde Armies are not a problem


No, that's a gakky "fix".


My solution is a fix to "blast" and "flamer" (formerly template) weapons.
Currently:
You fire a Hellhound Inferno Cannon at a group of 3 Terminators. In theory, that's not the right weapon for the job, as its supposed to be an anti horde weapon.
You roll 2D6 to see how many hits you get, and roll 9. That's three hits on each termie in the squad.
If the squad had 9 models, each would only get hit once.

This doesn't really make sense to me, and it punishes elite armies. In previous editions, one strength elite armies with small units had was that blast and flamer templates weren't very effective against them.

The 3rd edition "Cityfight" supplement, which also did away with templates, had a more elegant solution.
For blast weapons, you first rolled to hit using your ballistic skill. If you scored a hit, then you rolled a D3 (small blast) or a D6 (large blast) to see how many models in the targeted unit were hit.
The number of hits could not exceed the number of models in the target unit.
So a squad of 3 Terminators could not be hit more than 3 times by a single weapon.

This would mean some weapons would need their cost adjusted, and maybe Damage too. But it would also make it easier to balance blast weapons (supposedly anti horde) VS single shot weapons (supposedly anti large), like Battle Cannons VS Vanquisher Cannons.
Many weapons that are now Heavy D6 could for example be made Heavy D6+3, making them more effective against hordes, but not too effective against single models or small elite units, as they wouldn't be able to score more hits than the number of models.

Currently, a buff to blast/flamers to combat hordes will also make them more effective VS elites, and having to bring anti-elite/anti-large weapons at all wouldn't even be needed - just hose everything down with flamers and blasts.

Another solution would be Faction Specific Detachments. Currently, the Imperial Guard has access to some really cheap Battalions, and even Brigades. For an elite army, filling out a Battalion is far more costly. They simply won't get the same number of Command Points that easily.
How much does a battalion detachment of Custodes cost? I'm not sure, but I bet it's way more than 200pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 05:45:56


On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Some anti-horde options:

Templates/Blasts hit more:
Templates/Blasts roll one die for each model in the target unit. The weapon gets one attack for each roll of 6.

This would make Flamers really scary to hordes, but not as scary to a Demon Prince.

Melee combat distance:
Models may only attack if they are within 1" of the target.

This would make it harder for a tide of Guardsmen to hold off elite units. It wouldn't improve the killiness of the elitest CC units that wipe out anything on the charge (zerkers), but suddenly VV and ASM and even Tacs don't take as many losses assaulting large numbers of chaff.

Morale actually mattering:
Double Morale losses (2 per point you lost by) and halve many of the morale protections.

Suddenly, killing 10 guys in a 30-man blob actually matters.

None of these 3 are particularly well tuned, and I'm not saying just add them in without rethinking other things. But are any of these 3 a good idea.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




No, it's not a poor fix. Marines need to lose fewer points to weapons like disintegrators, too. Improving weapons again hordes does not address marines' insane fragility in the current meta. Marines need more bodies. More bodies will bring more guns, and make hordes more manageable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 14:50:21


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





It seems like weapon power needs to be tuned down a bit across the board, except when facing hordes. To me, at least. That would indirectly nerf hordes, to an extent.
   
 
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