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So I played a lot of Warhammer Fantasy (for more than 15 years) and when they changed it all to AOS I just kind of lost interest, because I didn't want to go through the whole new-game-and-changing-the-rules-all-the-time phase of any new and upstarting game. Now I thought it was in a place, where the model range and rules where rather up to date and kind of settled in, so I started buying miniatures. I've bought the Stormcast Eternals Hammerstrike Brethren box and then I find out, that there is no official point buy system for building your army, but more a "field whatever you like" rule, with an unofficial point system in the GHB17. Problem is that this system only allows for entire units (only divided by 5 in the case of stormcast eternals) which means I have nothing to use half of the starter set for, as that consists of 3 liberators and 2 retributors. Is this really the only system and what alternatives are there? Why did they abandon the possibility of buying uneven numbered units? What system do most people use to build armies? I'm so annoyed by this..

The point system in General's Handbook is far from "unofficial". That's their points system. The Battletomes that have been released since the introduction of points have Matched Play profiles in the back of the book.

Your Hammerstrike Brethren box was set up for Warhammer Skirmish, not for general play. Either of the Start Collecting sets(Vanguard or vanilla Stormcast) would have given you a Warscroll Battalion in them that is basically a non-pointed way for you to play the boxed set with some special rules matching the style of play you'll be looking at.

In Skirmish, you are able to buy models on an individual basis. That's why your box isn't really jibing with the points in the General's Handbook.

CoffeeManDK wrote:
Unofficial.

Dear, GHB is as official as it can get.

Also, unless GHB17 changed it, you used to be allowed to field understrength units as long as you pay the price for the full unit. It specifically uses a 3-model liberator unit as an example.

Again, this may have changed in GHB17.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Also, unless GHB17 changed it, you used to be allowed to field understrength units as long as you pay the price for the full unit. It specifically uses a 3-model liberator unit as an example.

Again, this may have changed in GHB17.

Why would you do this? Pay the same for less models?

CoffeeManDK wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Also, unless GHB17 changed it, you used to be allowed to field understrength units as long as you pay the price for the full unit. It specifically uses a 3-model liberator unit as an example.

Again, this may have changed in GHB17.

Why would you do this? Pay the same for less models?

@privateer4hire: still in GHB17.

As for "why" you would do this, I believe it's more a concession on GW's part knowing that some kits don't come in the same numbers as the Matched Play unit sizes. Rather than "oh, if you don't have exactly 10, you're boned," it allows you to play with the 8 you have instead of not at all. Is it ideal? No, but as others have mentioned some (most?) of these kits that don't have the Matched Play unit sizes predate the rules shift to Age of Sigmar in general, and typically the Generals Handbook (wherein they introduced points).

Granted, it can most certainly be a bit annoying.

 Valander wrote:

As for "why" you would do this, I believe it's more a concession on GW's part knowing that some kits don't come in the same numbers as the Matched Play unit sizes. Rather than "oh, if you don't have exactly 10, you're boned," it allows you to play with the 8 you have instead of not at all. Is it ideal? No, but as others have mentioned some (most?) of these kits that don't have the Matched Play unit sizes predate the rules shift to Age of Sigmar in general, and typically the Generals Handbook (wherein they introduced points).

Uhhh...what? I cannot readily think of anything which isn't an easy to build kit that comes in anything less than the minimum size for a unit.

And even then, the easy to build kits are actually set up so that they match up with the big starter set.

The Stormcast half of the original starter set came with an undersized unit of Retributors. The first SC kit will fill it out though.

 EnTyme wrote:
The Stormcast half of the original starter set came with an undersized unit of Retributors. The first SC kit will fill it out though.

It's undersized for matched play. Retributors are the only type of Paladin that has a warscroll of "3 or more" otherwise.

Well, that's what the OP was talking about.

The OP was also talking about the points being unofficial, so I don't know exactly where he's coming from. It also seems like he might have misunderstood or potentially just not paid attention to anything when he bought the box he did(it was a Skirmish boxed set) and came to Dakka to gripe about it.

In any regards, the Retributors are a special case. They're undersized from the starter set but that's because it's meant to be paired with an Easy to Build and possibly a box of Paladins.

By pairing the easy build and starter set with a box of Paladins, you have two units of 5 with the Primes being the same model(the Easy to Build has a Retributor Prime and a Retributor) and the one from the box letting you build a Starsoul Mace and 4 non-Prime Retributors.

A similar thing is done with the Liberators, as they come with a Liberator Prime in the Easy to Build setup and 2 'generics'. The little $8 'start here' magazine comes with a generic Liberator and given that a lot of the 'new' players I've personally interacted with at my local GW ended up doing painting demos and stuff, they end up being able to have a third 5 man Liberator squad with the painting demo model, the 'start here' magazine, and the Easy Build box.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Valander wrote:

As for "why" you would do this, I believe it's more a concession on GW's part knowing that some kits don't come in the same numbers as the Matched Play unit sizes. Rather than "oh, if you don't have exactly 10, you're boned," it allows you to play with the 8 you have instead of not at all. Is it ideal? No, but as others have mentioned some (most?) of these kits that don't have the Matched Play unit sizes predate the rules shift to Age of Sigmar in general, and typically the Generals Handbook (wherein they introduced points).

Uhhh...what? I cannot readily think of anything which isn't an easy to build kit that comes in anything less than the minimum size for a unit.

And even then, the easy to build kits are actually set up so that they match up with the big starter set.

Well, I did specify Matched Play unit sizes, and there are several that fall into that. A few: Chaos Warriors (comes with 16, increments of 5 for Matched Play so doesn't match up), Dryads (comes with 16, increments of 10 for Matched Play), in fact several basic troop types from 7th edition or possibly earlier come with 16 models, but wind up with increments of 5 or 10 in GHB17 Matched Play (and previous GHB for that matter). So in a lot of cases you either have "extras" beyond the minimum size, or not enough to jump to the next increment since in Matched Play you have to go by minimum unit increments. So yes, I may have been less than clear (sure, 16 is more than minimum, but you still have either unusable models or less than a full unit of the next size up), but there are many boxes which don't jibe because of the switchover.

Still that is just weird. Should be easy enough to make a point system, where you can buy units of priced individuals.

If a Bloodletter costs x points and my buddy needs to round up, and he can throw in two more into a unit, we do that in friendly matched play games. Otherwise it is what it is.

When GHB came out there were several fan comps in existence. Several used the current method in one form or fashion, stating the desire to move away from spreadsheet hammer and individual model costs.

This apparently was popular enough to make it the "official" way.

 auticus wrote:
When GHB came out there were several fan comps in existence. Several used the current method in one form or fashion, stating the desire to move away from spreadsheet hammer and individual model costs.

This apparently was popular enough to make it the "official" way.

In a lot of ways, I like the simpler build, as it seems to lessen the min-max WAAC list builders. In others, though, the issues like off-size units does bug me a bit.

 Valander wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Valander wrote:

As for "why" you would do this, I believe it's more a concession on GW's part knowing that some kits don't come in the same numbers as the Matched Play unit sizes. Rather than "oh, if you don't have exactly 10, you're boned," it allows you to play with the 8 you have instead of not at all. Is it ideal? No, but as others have mentioned some (most?) of these kits that don't have the Matched Play unit sizes predate the rules shift to Age of Sigmar in general, and typically the Generals Handbook (wherein they introduced points).

Uhhh...what? I cannot readily think of anything which isn't an easy to build kit that comes in anything less than the minimum size for a unit.

And even then, the easy to build kits are actually set up so that they match up with the big starter set.

Well, I did specify Matched Play unit sizes, and there are several that fall into that. A few: Chaos Warriors (comes with 16, increments of 5 for Matched Play so doesn't match up), Dryads (comes with 16, increments of 10 for Matched Play), in fact several basic troop types from 7th edition or possibly earlier come with 16 models, but wind up with increments of 5 or 10 in GHB17 Matched Play (and previous GHB for that matter). So in a lot of cases you either have "extras" beyond the minimum size, or not enough to jump to the next increment since in Matched Play you have to go by minimum unit increments. So yes, I may have been less than clear (sure, 16 is more than minimum, but you still have either unusable models or less than a full unit of the next size up), but there are many boxes which don't jibe because of the switchover.

You're missing that many people take advantage of that extra model for Dryads to make a Hero--and it's actually something that GW themselves have encouraged/detailed. Same with the Chaos Warriors for Slaves to Darkness.

You're also missing that when a unit comes in sprues of 4, there's no clean way unless they double up significantly more stuff than they did. Dryads came in sets of 8 or 12(I never bought a single damn set of them since the Wood Elf Battalions included them; still ended up with 36 of the damn things). Can't comment on Chaos Warriors; I just know they reboxed them a couple of times.

There came a point where they ceased doing weird numbers and instead just went with multiples of 5. It's how we got to Goldswords.

You're missing that my point is that not all boxes have a Matched Play organizational break down, which is what seemed to be a main point of confusion for the OP. Sure, you can convert stuff or do whatever, but that doesn't change that you can't build a book-to-box equivalent for several units.

I fully understand why they don't just do a simple rebox (sprues are what they are). But again, a lot of that comes from having designed sprues for a previous edition which used different compositions of units than are now used. Either way, not going to keep arguing the point since it doesn't really matter that much.

And I'm pretty sure you're missing my point:

First, the OP? He bought a box that isn't "for Matched Play" or even the real game. He bought a Skirmish box, which basically gives him a good chunk of stuff for nothing since it includes the actual Prosecutors rather than the ones from the starter box.

Second, there's very few things that exist right now which don't conform to Matched Play standards. There's basically just the wonky older stuff like Chaos Warriors and Dryads, as even the Ardboys for Ironjaws are 15 to a box.

To answer the original question. The points in ghb 2017 are official. They will be updated annually in the new version of ghb. If you do not want to buy that book, the points are available for free by using warscroll builder on the community site. As for the undersized units it depends what you want to do.
The box you bought is designed for use in skirmish which is a separate sub game designed for small groups of minis. It has its own rule book and it's own points system which is based on individual models rather than units. The basic rules are the same as the main game so it is a good way to introduce yourself to the rules.
If you wish to play the full game there are a few options open to you to expand your collection. The original starter set contains three retributors. You can probably find just the stormcast half of that set on eBay for a pretty reasonable price. There are a variety of ways to build out your liberator unit including minis that come with magazines or paint sets. You could also buy another 3 easy build liberators and convert your spare into a hero. Cut of the hammer and add a banner and you have a clearly recognisable vexilor.
Finally if you have not built your minis is yet and are unhappy with them, GW has a no questions asked refund policy.

Chikout wrote:
To answer the original question. The points in ghb 2017 are official. They will be updated annually in the new version of ghb. If you do not want to buy that book, the points are available for free by using warscroll builder on the community site. As for the undersized units it depends what you want to do.
The box you bought is designed for use in skirmish which is a separate sub game designed for small groups of minis. It has its own rule book and it's own points system which is based on individual models rather than units. The basic rules are the same as the main game so it is a good way to introduce yourself to the rules.
If you wish to play the full game there are a few options open to you to expand your collection. The original starter set contains three retributors. You can probably find just the stormcast half of that set on eBay for a pretty reasonable price. There are a variety of ways to build out your liberator unit including minis that come with magazines or paint sets. You could also buy another 3 easy build liberators and convert your spare into a hero. Cut of the hammer and add a banner and you have a clearly recognisable vexilor.
Finally if you have not built your minis is yet and are unhappy with them, GW has a no questions asked refund policy.

All good points, and you can also trade them on sites like this as well.

One more question about army building: How does alliances work? Can you mix and match from all armies with no restrictions? Also what about the chaos armies? Are the khorne daemons and khorne bloodbound two different armies in one army book, or are they one army? Ie. can a bloodthirster lead an army consisting entirely of mortal bloodbounds?

In open or narrative there are no rules.

In matched play your army will have a list of alliance keywords it can use. Up to 20% of your army can have those alliances within it and still retain your own allegiance special abilities.

Otherwise you have to use your generic faction special abilities (chaos, order, death, destruction)

Kanluwen wrote:First, the OP? He bought a box that isn't "for Matched Play" or even the real game. He bought a Skirmish box, which basically gives him a good chunk of stuff for nothing since it includes the actual Prosecutors rather than the ones from the starter box.

I've seen this point a couple of times, and while it is true, it is worth noting the box itself (at least the one I looked over at the local store) doesn't mention the skirmish ruleset at all. It's not unreasonable for someone to buy it thinking it was good for matched play.

And it's not the first time they did a box like that, right? Isn't the reason there are easy-to-build prosecutors and liberators in twos and threes to cover the same shortfall in the starter set?

auticus wrote:In open or narrative there are no rules.

In matched play your army will have a list of alliance keywords it can use. Up to 20% of your army can have those alliances within it and still retain your own allegiance special abilities.

Otherwise you have to use your generic faction special abilities (chaos, order, death, destruction)

The General's Handbook covers this in a bit more detail, but basically this. There are three general tiers of play based on amount of points being used, these each have hero and battleline minimums and maximum allowed behemoths which are mostly easy to accommodate.

Order, Chaos, Death and Destruction are wide categories under which all the models fall under and you can build an army of varied factions working under one such grand alliance, each with specific command traits and wargear options. Individual armies have their own subfactions as well, building an army of Daughters of Khaine, for example, limits your selection of units to that faction, but grants you access to additional rules, traits, wargear etc that is more flavorful and directly geared towards benefiting those units. You can also spend a limited amount of your points on units from other factions that are designated as 'allies'.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:First, the OP? He bought a box that isn't "for Matched Play" or even the real game. He bought a Skirmish box, which basically gives him a good chunk of stuff for nothing since it includes the actual Prosecutors rather than the ones from the starter box.

I've seen this point a couple of times, and while it is true, it is worth noting the box itself (at least the one I looked over at the local store) doesn't mention the skirmish ruleset at all. It's not unreasonable for someone to buy it thinking it was good for matched play.

Just wanting to point this out:

Perfect for starting a warband to use in games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Skirmish, this is a selection of 9 glorious celestial warriors ready to wage small-scale warfare on your gaming table.

I know, I know that's not "on the box"--but the language used for the Hammerstrike Brethren box is unchanged since its initial introduction for Skirmish with the Skirmish book.

I mean, I get that maybe he thought "Oh hey $65 for all that stuff? Awesome!"...but why didn't he think to ask someone knowledgeable about AoS if he's just getting into it?

And it's not the first time they did a box like that, right? Isn't the reason there are easy-to-build prosecutors and liberators in twos and threes to cover the same shortfall in the starter set?

There's no "easy to build Prosecutors". The Prosecutors(winged guys) in this Skirmish box are the full kit. When they were first released, they came in sets of 3 rather than 6 like they do now.
Liberators and Judicators both came in sets of 5 rather than 10 as they do now.

The Easy to Builds are:
Retributors come in a pack of 2, with one model being a Retributor Prime(the unit leader) and one model being a bog standard Retributor. I can't explain why they did it that way other than it jibes well with the Paladin box and the ability of someone to field Starsoul Maces with Retributor units if they so choose. They end up with a 'loose' Retributor and Retributor Prime that they can bring along if they don't want a Starsoul Mace at that time(say, if someone wants to field 2 units of 3 rather than a unit of 5--Starsouls require at least 5 models).

Liberators come in a pack of 3; 1 Prime and 2 regulars. In this case it's because they also had a little $9 magazine that comes with a lone Liberator on sprue and shops were sent that same model to use as painting demo/intro models. There's no shortfall of Liberators in the starter set.



Edit note:
By no means should this really be considered a "BLAME THE OP!" post. Apologies if it's coming off like that. It just vexes me to no end that people get into games without making a cursory effort in this day and age to get the smallest advice from someone knowledgeable--even if it's just asking someone during a game day if they think a box is a good way to start the game--and then they get upset when they find out they made a bad call, blaming it on the game for them making a bad call? I've seen it a few times in person relating to AoS and the various Skirmish boxes at my local GW--the manager tries to explain it to them at the time and they talk about how they just want the cheaper way to get into it.