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Hi guys and gals,

I'm just going to relate this in order to see how prevalent people think this attitude is and whether it's considered generally reasonable.

I was away recently and brought my army. Conferences are boring and I thought I'd look up a GW/Gaming group to break the evening hotel monotony.

Anyhoo, I found a store and someone who wanted a game. My army consists of 30 tacs, 2 Assault Squads, Drop pods, various characters, 10 Devs, 10 assault termies and a single Leviathan with Siege claw and Drill. Ravenguard tactics.

As soon as I took out the Leviathan, this particular guy said he refuses to play against FW. It wasn't even store policy.

I hardly felt a single Leviathan, comprising the total heavy armour of my army was game-breaking.

Thoughts?

If they don't want to play FW, that's their prerogative. If they don't want to play against Tactical Squads, or models painted pink, that's also their choice.

Unfortunately FW models have a deserved reputation, they are either worse than useless or overpowered brie. There is no in-between.

FW models are also sometimes abused by cheaters who take advantage of people's lack of familiarity with their rules.

There's also the can't-afford-it sour grapes crowd.

My group has no problem with them but we always have the rules and we know each other.

FWphobia is a needless hangover from previous editions. You probably saved yourself a headache if this guy refused for that reason. He’d no doubt bring up other annoying foibles later on too. Hope you have more luck next time. Chalk this one up as a win!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they don't want to play FW, that's their prerogative. If they don't want to play against Tactical Squads, or models painted pink, that's also their choice.

Unfortunately FW models have a deserved reputation, they are either worse than useless or overpowered brie. There is no in-between.

So, in the context of my less than optimal bunch of power armoured bullet magnets, would you consider a Leviathan overpowered? I admit, Leviathans are very effective, especially when combined with other stuff that creates a target saturation effect but I hardly think a single centrepiece model is OP.

By the way, I completely agree that people can refuse to play against anything they like. There's a social contract at work here, always. The upshot was I dropped the big, tubby hunk of resin and we played a smaller game. It was a good game, too. My opponent seemed like a generally good guy. No cheese. No rules lawyering. Just a very black-and-white view of FW.

Banville wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they don't want to play FW, that's their prerogative. If they don't want to play against Tactical Squads, or models painted pink, that's also their choice.

Unfortunately FW models have a deserved reputation, they are either worse than useless or overpowered brie. There is no in-between.

So, in the context of my less than optimal bunch of power armoured bullet magnets, would you consider a Leviathan overpowered? I admit, Leviathans are very effective, especially when combined with other stuff that creates a target saturation effect but I hardly think a single centrepiece model is OP.

By the way, I completely agree that people can refuse to play against anything they like. There's a social contract at work here, always. The upshot was I dropped the big, tubby hunk of resin and we played a smaller game. It was a good game, too. My opponent seemed like a generally good guy. No cheese. No rules lawyering. Just a very black-and-white view of FW.

Disappointing then. The rest of your army isn’t massively optimal, so one unit, even if OPZOMG, does not an army make. Shame he turned it down, glad you got a good game in anyway.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FWphobia is a needless hangover from previous editions. You probably saved yourself a headache if this guy refused for that reason. He’d no doubt bring up other annoying foibles later on too. Hope you have more luck next time. Chalk this one up as a win!

Yeah that's long lasted fobia from like 3rd edition.

It sounds more like a principle based on erroneous assumptions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ForgeWorld units. There are as many GW units as there are FW units with poorly written rules.

However, the Leviathan is a point-effective model; T8 with invuln saves is very good. I'd say it's the best unit in your army, especially with the -1 to hit when beyond 12."

I run one myself. It's a beast, as you well know, but no reason to refuse a game. People who refuse to play a game with you when you field legal and well balanced armies should understand that they're being a bit weird.

Sadly that’s that person prerogative as silly as it is.

That being said Lolviathans are beasts and well worth the points with dakka ones for raven guard and dark angels being the best by far.

 Formosa wrote:
Sadly that’s that person prerogative as silly as it is.

That being said Lolviathans are beasts and well worth the points with dakka ones for raven guard and dark angels being the best by far.

Not silly actually. Why should anybody be forced to do something he doesn't enjoy? Are we living in a free country or north korea?

I think Leviathans are very competitive, but not unreasonable. But they are beautiful models, and they're one of my dream projects. Personally, I think it's quite disappointing to have an opponent give an ultimatum like that, I'd love to play against something I'd never seen even if there were a chance I'd get my back broken over it. Of course, I think you did the sporting thing.

tneva82 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Sadly that’s that person prerogative as silly as it is.

That being said Lolviathans are beasts and well worth the points with dakka ones for raven guard and dark angels being the best by far.

Not silly actually. Why should anybody be forced to do something he doesn't enjoy? Are we living in a free country or north korea?

While I agree with your sentiment about people being free to do as they please in the example, I don't think it makes things any less petty or silly.

These are legal models, with legal rules, provided by and supported by the company that make the game. They are no more or less optional than any other model that GW make - like it or not.
Refusing to play against anything from the FW department of GW is akin to refusing to play tennis with anyone who wants to use rules regarding the net, or who has a more expensive racket than you. You have a right to do it, but it's seriously questionable in any reasonable individuals mind to hold that attitude.

StrayIight wrote:
These are legal models, with legal rules, provided by and supported by the company that make the game. They are no more or less optional than any other model that GW make - like it or not.
Refusing to play against anything from the FW department of GW is akin to refusing to play tennis with anyone who wants to use rules regarding the net, or who has a more expensive racket than you. You have a right to do it, but it's seriously questionable in any reasonable individuals mind to hold that attitude.

You should play game against anybody regardless of what army they have etc? Just because other player wants a game you are bound to play it no matter what?

No that's not the case. I won't play against say IG+custodes alliance super fast scoring max points(including finishing up games in time). That game would be just boring slaughterfest with foregone conclusion. Ditto for Mortarion+Magnus tag combo. Yes 100% legal army. But it would also be one that would not lead to interesting game so I would say "no".

If player A doesn't enjoy the game he is not forced to play it just because you decide you want to play a game.

And btw I wouldn't play game of tennis against Federer either. That would be just boring waste of time.

tneva82 wrote:
If player A doesn't enjoy the game he is not forced to play it just because you decide you want to play a game.

However, "your rulebook says 'Forge World' on the cover" is not something that is going to ruin any sane person's enjoyment of a game. The OP's list was pretty low in power level overall, comparing it to a game between a weak list and a top-tier tournament list is not reasonable.

tneva82 wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
These are legal models, with legal rules, provided by and supported by the company that make the game. They are no more or less optional than any other model that GW make - like it or not.
Refusing to play against anything from the FW department of GW is akin to refusing to play tennis with anyone who wants to use rules regarding the net, or who has a more expensive racket than you. You have a right to do it, but it's seriously questionable in any reasonable individuals mind to hold that attitude.

You should play game against anybody regardless of what army they have etc? Just because other player wants a game you are bound to play it no matter what?

No that's not the case. I won't play against say IG+custodes alliance super fast scoring max points(including finishing up games in time). That game would be just boring slaughterfest with foregone conclusion. Ditto for Mortarion+Magnus tag combo. Yes 100% legal army. But it would also be one that would not lead to interesting game so I would say "no".

If player A doesn't enjoy the game he is not forced to play it just because you decide you want to play a game.

And btw I wouldn't play game of tennis against Federer either. That would be just boring waste of time.

That's not what I said.

You can refuse to play whomever you wish - you have that right, but doing so on the basis that someone is using a model or rule (that's a legal part of the game) that you don't like, is (under general circumstances) open to being seen as unreasonable. If you're ignoring legitimate parts of a games rules or content, I feel that actually what you're now doing is playing your own version of a game, and not the 40K the rest of us are.

As for playing tennis against a professional player. Why? Because you'd likely lose? Does that then mean we should refuse to play against anyone who we suspect to better than us? I figure playing against a more talented individual is likely the best learning experience we'll ever have... Is the problem here actually one of humility?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FWphobia is a needless hangover from previous editions. You probably saved yourself a headache if this guy refused for that reason. He’d no doubt bring up other annoying foibles later on too. Hope you have more luck next time. Chalk this one up as a win!

Agreed.

You dodged a bullet. I have played against “Constantly Complaining Guy” and it sucks ass. Better to not play.

Hopefully you can find some like minded player(s) on your next outing.

StrayIight wrote:
You can refuse to play whomever you wish - you have that right, but doing so on the basis that someone is using a model or rule (that's a legal part of the game) that you don't like, is (under general circumstances) open to being seen as unreasonable. If you're ignoring legitimate parts of a games rules or content, I feel that actually what you're now doing is playing your own version of a game, and not the 40K the rest of us are.

As for playing tennis against a professional player. Why? Because you'd likely lose? Does that then mean we should refuse to play against anyone who we suspect to better than us? I figure playing against a more talented individual is likely the best learning experience we'll ever have... Is the problem here actually one of humility?

Or not having any fun with zero chance of winning or even avoiding massacre.

I know my lists aren't tournament type of lists. I don't need to play against super hard core armies to know my lists aren't that caliber. I also have yet to find tournament lists that arent' so far from the kind of armies I like to play(the kind you often read about in fluff) that I don't go either "yawn, boring" or literally puke. I cannot play those kind of lists. Period.

As my lists are more for relaxed beer&prezel games they will get 0-20 slaughtered in 1 turn against hardcore army lists. What function playing game serves? Difference in power level gap is so big that it won't teach me anything. Similarly playing tennis against Federer would be so slopsided it wouldn't teach me anything. He would just send ball where I am not nor would I be able to get there. There would be nothing to be learned from there either.

tneva82 wrote:

StrayIight wrote:
You can refuse to play whomever you wish - you have that right, but doing so on the basis that someone is using a model or rule (that's a legal part of the game) that you don't like, is (under general circumstances) open to being seen as unreasonable. If you're ignoring legitimate parts of a games rules or content, I feel that actually what you're now doing is playing your own version of a game, and not the 40K the rest of us are.

As for playing tennis against a professional player. Why? Because you'd likely lose? Does that then mean we should refuse to play against anyone who we suspect to better than us? I figure playing against a more talented individual is likely the best learning experience we'll ever have... Is the problem here actually one of humility?

Or not having any fun with zero chance of winning or even avoiding massacre.

I know my lists aren't tournament type of lists. I don't need to play against super hard core armies to know my lists aren't that caliber. I also have yet to find tournament lists that arent' so far from the kind of armies I like to play(the kind you often read about in fluff) that I don't go either "yawn, boring" or literally puke. I cannot play those kind of lists. Period.

As my lists are more for relaxed beer&prezel games they will get 0-20 slaughtered in 1 turn against hardcore army lists. What function playing game serves? Difference in power level gap is so big that it won't teach me anything. Similarly playing tennis against Federer would be so slopsided it wouldn't teach me anything. He would just send ball where I am not nor would I be able to get there. There would be nothing to be learned from there either.

It's been pointed out to you once already, but I will do so again: No one but you is saying anything about playing against tournament lists. We're talking about the refusal to play against a legal model because of a ridiculous and self invented policy against FW that someone has created, and that frankly, I see as deeply unfair toward the OP who is playing well within the spirit of the rules, let alone their granular content.

If you want to talk about tournament lists vs casual lists, we can have that separate discussion. But frankly taking a casual list to a location where you suspect or know people will be running super competitive armies is still on you. What you are bringing isn't in their control, only yours. My advice (unasked for admittedly) is to play at places or with groups that have a culture of casual play, not power play, or to suck it up if you go elsewhere.

I completely, completely understand you wanting to have a fun game. But you have to understand that 'fun' means different things to different people, and 'enforcing' your version of 'fun' on others (for any reason) via refusal of play, isn't going to be received favourably by many. Often times, the sporting thing to do is to compromise, and not be hardline and uncompromising regarding our own view.

The slope must be really fething slippery. We’re talking about 1 fething model in a basic-bitch, middle of the road list. No offense to the OP, naturally.

In THAT context, do you think the other guy overreacted?

Its because there are very few models in the FW line that are actually appropriately priced.

I think the guy over reacted, but its not a abnormal reaction.

Banville wrote:


As soon as I took out the Leviathan, this particular guy said he refuses to play against FW. It wasn't even store policy.

I hardly felt a single Leviathan, comprising the total heavy armour of my army was game-breaking.

Thoughts?

The short answer is "You found the local manchild". There's a dwindling number of these guys still lurking around that believe everything a scummy FLGS owner told them about Forge World 10 years ago, when the answer basically boils down to "the stores can't sell it, so they do everything they can to keep it off their tables".

Yeah, people can refuse any game they want for any reason they want. They can also sit there, alone, holding a box of models while the rest of the shop is having fun.

But looking at your list, if he didn't have something to take down a Dreadnaught- the only 'vehicle' unit you had, he must not have been a very sharp player.

Anyone who tells me "No Forge World" can go suck a resin brick in the corner. Usually the only people I've seen whining about it are just upset that they can't afford it, and it's usually followed by them picking up the model and asking me if I got it from China.

 kronk wrote:
The slope must be really fething slippery. We’re talking about 1 fething model in a basic-bitch, middle of the road list. No offense to the OP, naturally.

In THAT context, do you think the other guy overreacted?

And while Leviathans are strong, they're nothing special with the weapons that OP had on it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Its because there are very few models in the FW line that are actually appropriately priced.

I think the guy over reacted, but its not a abnormal reaction.

If by that you mean that most are grossly overpriced then yes. Why would that make someone refuse to play against them?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
The slope must be really fething slippery. We’re talking about 1 fething model in a basic-bitch, middle of the road list. No offense to the OP, naturally.

In THAT context, do you think the other guy overreacted?

And while Leviathans are strong, they're nothing special with the weapons that OP had on it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Its because there are very few models in the FW line that are actually appropriately priced.

I think the guy over reacted, but its not a abnormal reaction.

If by that you mean that most are grossly overpriced then yes. Why would that make someone refuse to play against them?

Funny enough imo i think the liviathen is a pretty spot on priced model. One that comes to mind as a broken one is the fire raptor even with its point increase. That thing should be baneblade price and a LoW option.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FWphobia is a needless hangover from previous editions. You probably saved yourself a headache if this guy refused for that reason. He’d no doubt bring up other annoying foibles later on too. Hope you have more luck next time. Chalk this one up as a win!

“FWphobia”. I remember when i first heard the phrase. That was a guy claiming aertos’rau’keres was underpowered compared to his pre-nerf price tag of 750 pts.

To answer OP, before i read what your opponent told you, i was thinking “it is always ok to turn down games due to FW models”. It is a principle to people like me, because FW upscales what can be fielded, essentially making it much more imbalanced in the way that the matchup of lists is more important than battlefield decisions. Titans, baneblades, thunderhawks, macroweapons does not fit the scale of the game, even though your list seems very reasonable. Then there’s the FW models that do fit, but are simply overpowered - like tesseract arks, whose only weakness is high S, low D weapons (so only plasma heavy lists can hope to get them down), armed with weapons fit to destroy anything and insane overwatch.. for the price of ~220, well under weaker models like land raiders (apparently the transport capacity is worth 100 pts, despite lower adaptability and weaker defense).

In other words, once people start the inherent arms race that follows bringing FW models, you force your opponents to list-tailoring and/or bringing their own FW models, thus buying into the very sales trick that FW uses: creating models that are only truly countered by other FW models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw: the fact that aertos rau keres was points adjusted from 750 to 1500 shows how imbalanced and poorly adjusted FW models are!

It is enough coping with the GW stuff

Legal or otherwise, you are not obliged to play against anything in this game if you don't want to, regardless of what it is that you don't want to play against.

I have little interest in playing against 'names', super-heavies and flyers, for example, outside of specific scenarios. Simple reason being that these things do not necessarily lend themselves To the types of games I want my 40k games to be about. All those things, just like forgeworld, are perfectly legal, all perfectly fair game, and you are entitled to like them, and to want to take any of them to a game that you want.

But you might end up playing against someone else other than me. Neither of us is necessarily wrong.

Northern85Star wrote:
baneblades

You do realize that the Baneblade is a GW plastic kit with rules in the GW IG codex, right? And that, in a broader context, the LoW rules have been driven by GW, not FW? The original FW superheavy/titan rules, way back in 3rd/4th edition, were laughably weak. Since then all of the escalation in LoW power has come from "main GW" sources: first in Apocalypse, and then in the 7th/8th edition core rules. FW has merely followed the established trend and updated their rules to match what GW does.

In other words, once people start the inherent arms race that follows bringing FW models, you force your opponents to list-tailoring and/or bringing their own FW models, thus buying into the very sales trick that FW uses: creating models that are only truly countered by other FW models.

Do you honestly believe that the same thing doesn't happen with codex rules? That power level differences don't exist, list tailoring isn't an issue, and people don't get into arms races when someone brings an overpowered codex unit?

Meh, kinda think it's just that guy. It's a friendly game at a local GW store, who the hell gives a squig if you win or lose?

 lolman1c wrote:
Meh, kinda think it's just that guy. It's a friendly game at a local GW store, who the hell gives a squig if you win or lose?

I think majority of people do just enjoy rolling dice, but no one likes to put down all their models only to scoop half of them off the board turn one to a single round of shooting, I have seen gak like the fire raptor wpie almost entire armies off the board. Or same thing with bringing like 6 basalisks. Its just not even fun anymore.

Deadnight wrote:
Legal or otherwise, you are not obliged to play against anything in this game if you don't want to, regardless of what it is that you don't want to play against.

I have little interest in playing against 'names', super-heavies and flyers, for example, outside of specific scenarios. Simple reason being that these things do not necessarily lend themselves To the types of games I want my 40k games to be about. All those things, just like forgeworld, are perfectly legal, all perfectly fair game, and you are entitled to like them, and to want to take any of them to a game that you want.

But you might end up playing against someone else other than me. Neither of us is necessarily wrong.

You do have that right. You're not 'wrong' to exercise it.

But you are essentially playing 'Deadnights basic infantry battles' a game based heavily on the popular miniatures game Warhammer: 40,000 that the rest of us play.
I truly mean no offense to you personally, but this attitude as a whole just smells of singling out people who won't play the game by your own preferences. It feels a lot like a form of elitism...