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So Tyranids Pathogenic Slime stratagem In the shooting phase for 2cp increase the damage of a Monster's shooting by 1. I noticed that unlike most stratagems including other stratagems in the Tyranid book. This does not state that it must be used 'before' the Monster shoots. Seems you can activate this stratagem at any point including after the opponent has failed his saves to get maximum mileage. Is this intentional? Or is it just an oversight of the Big FAQ ?

 Akaiyou wrote:
So Tyranids Pathogenic Slime stratagem In the shooting phase for 2cp increase the damage of a Monster's shooting by 1. I noticed that unlike most stratagems including other stratagems in the Tyranid book. This does not state that it must be used 'before' the Monster shoots. Seems you can activate this stratagem at any point including after the opponent has failed his saves to get maximum mileage. Is this intentional? Or is it just an oversight of the Big FAQ ?

It's intentional insofar as it hasn't been changed. RaW is RaI because the rules are intentionally written, they don't magically spawn from the æther.

Yes, you are right in that you can wait to use the stratagem when the opponent has failed their saves but before damage is inflicted. Anyone saying otherwise is simply wrong. If GW want to prohibit that they need to change the rule.

It almost makes it worth using a Barbed Heirodule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:
So Tyranids Pathogenic Slime stratagem In the shooting phase for 2cp increase the damage of a Monster's shooting by 1. I noticed that unlike most stratagems including other stratagems in the Tyranid book. This does not state that it must be used 'before' the Monster shoots. Seems you can activate this stratagem at any point including after the opponent has failed his saves to get maximum mileage. Is this intentional? Or is it just an oversight of the Big FAQ ?

It's intentional insofar as it hasn't been changed. RaW is RaI because the rules are intentionally written, they don't magically spawn from the æther.

Yes, you are right in that you can wait to use the stratagem when the opponent has failed their saves but before damage is inflicted. Anyone saying otherwise is simply wrong. If GW want to prohibit that they need to change the rule.

Agree you can use it when you like but for the umpteenth time, lack of an FAQ does not mean RAW always equals RAI. That’s just a silly thing you’ve concocted to prop up your ego, do stop. And trying to use the written-in-a-lunchbreak FW Rules as proof of this conceit is ridiculous... you yourself have derided their obvious errors in the past, yet when it suits your agenda they’re gospel. Some internal logic from you would be great, given your sig proves RAW often is not RAI.

If you dislike my posting so much, just stop replying?

My sig doesn't "prove RAW often is not RAI", my sig lists a bunch of examples that seem, for lack of a better phrase, counter-intuitive. That still doesn't change that the RaW was intentionally written or what the RaW is. A lack of change does by definition suggest intent. The changes to the Commissar's Summary Execution rule and the changes to how embarked units count for Tactical Reserves are proof of that.

Alas, another thread derailed by your obsession.

You would do well to remember it’s not your private forum and discussion of your posts is permitted. If you post erroneous stuff I may comment. Keep it civil and we’re golden.

Unless they add a caveat that says that it has to be used before doing X in an FAQ, then yes, as the rule currently stands, you can wait until your opponent has rolled his saves before popping the stratagem as resolving wounds still comes in as part of the shooting phase in this instance. to be fair, it's not that big of a deal as unless your opponent has FNP equivalents, it's not really going to change much in the wound phase, they would still fail the saves they failed, they wouldn't save more just because you dal less damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless it's rubric marines, but in most cases this won't be an issue. I can't remember whether their terminators get the +1 save vs weapons with 1 damage as well.

I would say you can, with the only limitation being to be careful against models with FNP type rules etc. Once a FNP dice is rolled you can no longer use the stratagem.

The thing to bear in mind is that attacks are technically made one by one.

Fast rolling your attacks all at once is just a way of speeding things up, for the usual case where it doesn't make a difference. However this is one of the cases where it does make a difference.
The damage of the first attack occurs before you roll to hit for the second attack.

So you can activate the stratagem at any point, and have it apply to the current attack and all future attacks. But you can't see your hit/wound rolls for all attacks, and have it retroactively apply to them.

Arson Fire wrote:
So you can activate the stratagem at any point, and have it apply to the current attack and all future attacks. But you can't see your hit/wound rolls for all attacks, and have it retroactively apply to them.

Very good point, which means that you can't actually "abuse" the stratagem to wait for a good batch of failed saves, though you can wait to see if you actually get a failed save then activate the stratagem when the first failed save is rolled.

For example you get 6 shots, you can wait to see if your opponent saves the first 5, or all 6, before activating the stratagem.

I would say that if you let your opponent fast roll and then after a bunch of failed saves try to surprise them with this stratagem then they’re within their rights to say it only applies to the last one since they’re shortcutting and you let them.

Shots get resolved one by one and if you want to use this stratagem I’d say you need to activate it before you make your attacks or have it apply to only the last roll.

Here’s a thread from another board from last year discussing the same Stratagem:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/54246/pathogenic-slime-timing

Gendif wrote:
I would say that if you let your opponent fast roll and then after a bunch of failed saves try to surprise them with this stratagem then they’re within their rights to say it only applies to the last one since they’re shortcutting and you let them.

Shots get resolved one by one and if you want to use this stratagem I’d say you need to activate it before you make your attacks or have it apply to only the last roll.

While I agree that you can't fast roll and then spring the stratagem since that is breaking the rules, you don't need to activate it before you make your attacks. You just have to do them one by one, then use the stratagem at some point during those attacks.

Example 1: You fire a Devourer for 6 shots. You miss the first shot. You hit, wound and fail save with the 2nd. You now activate the stratagem, then roll the rest of your attacks, with the stratagem applying to the rest of the shots.

Example 2: You fire a Devourer for 6 shots. You miss the first, second, third, fourth and fifth shot. You hit, wound and fail save with the 6th. You have the option of using the stratagem now, but you decide not to since it's a waste of CP.

On fast rolling I disagree, fast rolling is not your own choice it is the opponent's choice.

If the opponent chooses to fast roll that is his call. I am not responsible for his decision to roll everything together. I say this because MANY times I'm sure i am not the only one that has encountered opponents that are trigger happy to start rolling without allowing a chance for the opponent to do things. Either they forget or they purposely try to 'skip' your activations.

For example. For 2cp you can interrupt a charging unit during the fight phase. So what happens if your opponent starts rolling attacks for the next unit while you are still removing casualties from the previous fight? I'm sure im not the only one that have seen opponents immediately start rolling the next combat without even asking 'Would you like to interrupt?" or giving you a chance to declare after you are done picking up models.

In this situation fast rolling is a choice that can be made by the owning player for his own benefit or detriment and it should NOT penalize the Tyranid player. If you fast roll and I see a bunch of failed saves and activate my stratagem I am well within my right to use Pathogenic Slime at this time.

It is no different than an opponent who has 1 model outside of cover during the shooting phase he fast rolls all his saves (without the benefit of cover since he has 1 model out) and fails several. Then he should remove all models that failed regardless that he could've potentially only failed 1 and made all the others if rolled 1 by 1.

 Akaiyou wrote:
On fast rolling I disagree, fast rolling is not your own choice it is the opponent's choice.

If the opponent chooses to fast roll that is his call. I am not responsible for his decision to roll everything together. I say this because MANY times I'm sure i am not the only one that has encountered opponents that are trigger happy to start rolling without allowing a chance for the opponent to do things. Either they forget or they purposely try to 'skip' your activations.

For example. For 2cp you can interrupt a charging unit during the fight phase. So what happens if your opponent starts rolling attacks for the next unit while you are still removing casualties from the previous fight? I'm sure im not the only one that have seen opponents immediately start rolling the next combat without even asking 'Would you like to interrupt?" or giving you a chance to declare after you are done picking up models.

In this situation fast rolling is a choice that can be made by the owning player for his own benefit or detriment and it should NOT penalize the Tyranid player. If you fast roll and I see a bunch of failed saves and activate my stratagem I am well within my right to use Pathogenic Slime at this time.

It is no different than an opponent who has 1 model outside of cover during the shooting phase he fast rolls all his saves (without the benefit of cover since he has 1 model out) and fails several. Then he should remove all models that failed regardless that he could've potentially only failed 1 and made all the others if rolled 1 by 1.

Actually, fast rolling only allows you to batch roll your hit and wound rolls. After that "Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate." Anyone who fast rolls allocating wounds and saving throws is technically breaking the rules. Granted, you can shortcut it by saying "I'll allocate to regular guys first, then the sergeant" and then roll saves, but that's a very unofficial and technically illegal action.

So you can't wait for all the saving rolls to be made and then retroactively activate the stratagem. If you wait for 3 failed saves, then activate it, the stratagem only works on the last failed save and the subsequent ones, since the first 2 failed saves have already gone though the Inflict Damage step.

Trust me, I am surprised as you are that GW actually didn't feth this up, the rules are working perfectly fine regardless of when you activate the stratagem, or whether you fast roll or not.

>IWantedANewLinkForMySignature.voxcast

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you dislike my posting so much, just stop replying?

My sig doesn't "prove RAW often is not RAI", my sig lists a bunch of examples that seem, for lack of a better phrase, counter-intuitive. That still doesn't change that the RaW was intentionally written or what the RaW is. A lack of change does by definition suggest intent. The changes to the Commissar's Summary Execution rule and the changes to how embarked units count for Tactical Reserves are proof of that.

Alas, another thread derailed by your obsession.

So there's no intention to be able to shoot assault weapons after advancing or shooting pistols within 1" of an enemy, despite some wording with GW saying we can except for otther rules GW forgot about making it RAW that you can't do this? Or back in 4th editions was it GW's intention that Terminators did not wear terminator armor? They didn't list it on their equipment then and didn't FAQ it, so according to what you state they must have been running into combat buck naked except for straps to hold their grenades, weapons and gear.

Oh, and as I pointed out before, The Big FAQ I disproves your statement that RAW is RAI because they give some nice paragraphs in the beta rules about how some of the rules didn't work as they intented - clearly indicating that RAW is not always RAI. Also, the fact that they're putting out beta rules and calling them beta rules, and having had a beta rule before that changed when it was published again shows that they are putting out things that they want to see if they work as intended without unexpected interactions with other rules is really an admission that they aren't guaranteeing that this is exactly the rule as they intend it to work.

It's your obsession about claiming RAW is RAI that's the problem here. You know that many people disagree with you on it yet you still want to throw it out there to bait other people into dealing with your digression. Congratulations, it worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:
On fast rolling I disagree, fast rolling is not your own choice it is the opponent's choice.

If the opponent chooses to fast roll that is his call. I am not responsible for his decision to roll everything together. I say this because MANY times I'm sure i am not the only one that has encountered opponents that are trigger happy to start rolling without allowing a chance for the opponent to do things. Either they forget or they purposely try to 'skip' your activations.

For example. For 2cp you can interrupt a charging unit during the fight phase. So what happens if your opponent starts rolling attacks for the next unit while you are still removing casualties from the previous fight? I'm sure im not the only one that have seen opponents immediately start rolling the next combat without even asking 'Would you like to interrupt?" or giving you a chance to declare after you are done picking up models.

In this situation fast rolling is a choice that can be made by the owning player for his own benefit or detriment and it should NOT penalize the Tyranid player. If you fast roll and I see a bunch of failed saves and activate my stratagem I am well within my right to use Pathogenic Slime at this time.

It is no different than an opponent who has 1 model outside of cover during the shooting phase he fast rolls all his saves (without the benefit of cover since he has 1 model out) and fails several. Then he should remove all models that failed regardless that he could've potentially only failed 1 and made all the others if rolled 1 by 1.

Actually, fast rolling only allows you to batch roll your hit and wound rolls. After that "Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate." Anyone who fast rolls allocating wounds and saving throws is technically breaking the rules. Granted, you can shortcut it by saying "I'll allocate to regular guys first, then the sergeant" and then roll saves, but that's a very unofficial and technically illegal action.

So you can't wait for all the saving rolls to be made and then retroactively activate the stratagem. If you wait for 3 failed saves, then activate it, the stratagem only works on the last failed save and the subsequent ones, since the first 2 failed saves have already gone though the Inflict Damage step.

Trust me, I am surprised as you are that GW actually didn't feth this up, the rules are working perfectly fine regardless of when you activate the stratagem, or whether you fast roll or not.

>IWantedANewLinkForMySignature.voxcast

I'd agree with this. Since you're allocating wounds one at a time you have the option to apply it for the first failed save against a wound, if you wish to use the stratagem at that time, and sldo have it apply to any subsequent wounds that are allocated

What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

Read the rules again. Rolling saves ALWAYS happens one at a time. Always. As in, every time. You have no permission to Fast Roll saving throws in any situation. If people Fast Roll saves they are BREAKING THE RULES. Normally it's ok to shortcut it by pre-allocating wounds to regular dudes and saying what order casualties will be taken, but that is very much an illegal action and, as shown, can have disastrous consequences by altering how the results play out.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

I think the arguement for rolling one at a time is more for the you can't roll chekc the outcome then apply the stratagem.

You cna however roll 1 out of 6 get a hit, decide yeah ill apply the stratagem, then maybe fast roll the other 5, but one roll at a time until you decide to use the stratagem or not, unless of course if you use the stratagem before any rolls then all is good.

I think the arguement for this is more it stops people knowing the outcome before playing the buff as the clear purpose is to play the buff before knowing total outcome.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

Read the rules again. Rolling saves ALWAYS happens one at a time. Always. As in, every time. You have no permission to Fast Roll saving throws in any situation. If people Fast Roll saves they are BREAKING THE RULES. Normally it's ok to shortcut it by pre-allocating wounds to regular dudes and saying what order casualties will be taken, but that is very much an illegal action and, as shown, can have disastrous consequences by altering how the results play out.

There are rules that are just bad and this is one of them.

Fast rolling should be a requirement - except were individual rolls are required on a case by case basis. Like archons 2++ save, unique saves in a unit, ect. This stratagem is also busted - it should have to be declared when you select the target to shoot. Not denying what the rules say. I'd say a FAQ is not needed here - a rewrite of how saves are taken is required.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

Read the rules again. Rolling saves ALWAYS happens one at a time. Always. As in, every time. You have no permission to Fast Roll saving throws in any situation. If people Fast Roll saves they are BREAKING THE RULES. Normally it's ok to shortcut it by pre-allocating wounds to regular dudes and saying what order casualties will be taken, but that is very much an illegal action and, as shown, can have disastrous consequences by altering how the results play out.

There are rules that are just bad and this is one of them.

Fast rolling should be a requirement - except were individual rolls are required on a case by case basis. Like archons 2++ save, unique saves in a unit, ect. This stratagem is also busted - it should have to be declared when you select the target to shoot. Not denying what the rules say. I'd say a FAQ is not needed here - a rewrite of how saves are taken is required.

And I think modifiers should apply before rerolls, flamers shouldn't be able to autohit supersonic aircraft and Plasma Cannons should explode more often at night.

What the rules "should" be is irrelevant. What the rules "are" is. And despite all evidence to the contrary, GW actually managed to write these rules in such a way that they actually work in a clear and concise manner. If GW want the stratagem to have to be declared before rolling to hit, then they need to errata the stratagem. It's that simple.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What is the purpose of this 1 at a time rolling you are talking about? Someones ablity to use a stratagem should not allow you to avoid fast rolling. IMO this needlessly lengthens the game and just encourages slow play.

You can still fast roll to hit and to wound, but even the fast roll rules say you allocated wounds one at a time. The way the stratagem is worded now, you can use it when you hit the stage when you start allocating wounds, or after someone has failed a save for the wound but before damage is applied. Whether you're fast rolling or not shouldn't be an issue.