Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In another thread (how to play 40k solo), there was talk about using cards for AI. It got me thinking, would that be an interesting replacement for IGUGO?

There are endless complaints about IGUGO. I do think it can add some things (the more combined-arms forces utilize the style to have their units work together). But it also causes problems, such as blowing things off the table before they can do anything, and lopsiding the game based on who goes first. Most of the 'solutions' lead to weird metagames, based on the implementation.

I envision a standard 52-card deck, which does limit it to 52 units (which should be plenty). Any other style of cards available (printed on paper, MTG, Pokemon cards even) would work. Or even marked stones in a bag if you want to get fancy. Each card references a specific unit in the list. When a card is drawn, activate that unit.

The deck would represent both armies. So a game turn would be for *both* players, not just one.

There are a couple varaints on how you would implement this:

Hidden/Shown?
You could have the deck face down, as normal - so you have to act without knowing whos next. Or you could do face-up, so you can plan your maneuvers.

By Phase or Turn?
By phase would be more similar to the current game - all movement before any shooting, all shooting before any assault, etc. But it would take a lot longer than by-turn (where you do each phase for each unit activated on it's activation).

Doing it by-turn would make it more similar to a lot of other game systems out there. But a lot less drawing/shuffling.

When to shuffle?
Do you retain initiative order all game by never shuffling? Do you shuffle every round? If you're activating by phase, do you shuffle by phase?

CC - When?
CC comes last. But does it come at the end of the unit's activation? Does it come at the end of the round? If it were the end of the round, you have to keep track of who charged (like normal). Another thought would be to have activated units fight at the end of their activation. Then, at the end of the round, everybody could fight again? Or just those who haven't fought? One of the reasons for this potential double-fight is that you have condensed to player turns into one - so if you don't give the extra fighting at the end of the round, you get half the CC you get "today".

I think I like fight when you activate, then immediate opportuntiy for rebuttles from those who haven't fought - to ensure everybody in CC gets a chance to fight, but not allow units to fight once per opponent in CC with them. Or just on activation and again at end of round - giving everybody two opportunities, but ensuring nobody gets denied wholly, if for example they activate before they get charged one round, and not until after their charger the next round.

I may add more to this later, this is mostly a stream of conciousness. I doubt I'll ever play this, but I'm really curious to toy with the idea - and so would love input from others!

It would be much easier just to follow the Bolt actions system, 2 color dice in a bag, pull a dice out, if its your color, you activate a unit.

Any ability that says only active in a phase, you just activate it in that phase for the unit, if it effects multiple units then those multiple units will have the effect activated in their phase when they go though it.

But how many dice are in the bag?

If it's one die per unit, bring a Knight and a bunch of IG - you're basically guarenteed to always get to activate your Knight first!

If it's equal numbers of dice for each side, one side has 12 units, the other 24 - does the other player only get to activate half his units? Activate two at a time? Or activate 12 one after another at the end of the round?

I think each of those would complicate the issue. Armies in 40k can have many different unit counts. I've already had games I've won by having enough drops to not *really* deploy until after my opponent has committed.

The suggestion is mostly about random initiative order to prevent gaminess of the IGUGO replacement. The idea is each card represents a specific unit, not a player who picks a unit.

Not that I hate the 'just put dice in the bag'. Do any of my fears manifest in Bolt Action (never played it)?

Look up the old GW game Battlemasters from the early 90s. it did basically this.

Hr problem with this kind of activation, is that it massively screws over mobile armies and characters.
The unit activates, moves away, and losses the character buff. Then the character activates and catches up, too late to actually help.

Unless you implement a system a bit like Necromunda at the same time, where if you activate a character they get to bring ~2 units nearby along at the same time.

But then that would just further solidify the current meta of character bombs.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Hr problem with this kind of activation, is that it massively screws over mobile armies and characters.
The unit activates, moves away, and losses the character buff. Then the character activates and catches up, too late to actually help.

Only if you insist on 8th edition stupidity with characters. Go back to previous editions, where the character joins a unit, and this is no longer a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If it's one die per unit, bring a Knight and a bunch of IG - you're basically guarenteed to always get to activate your Knight first!

This is a known thing with systems like this, and it's not nearly as one-sided as you think it is. Yes, you get to activate your knight first (or, as you often want to, activate it last), but only at the cost of having a bunch of activations that aren't doing much individually. The knight gets to wreck something in the first activation, but then you're sitting idle as your opponent activates meaningful units and hits back. Add in the fact that big death star units like a knight are often overkill and you have a high risk of getting your unbalanced activations exploited by a more balanced opponent. The ideal strategy ends up being a mix of units: big guns for when you need to make a single activation count, cheap cannon fodder for when you want to increase your activation count, and mid-range units to keep from going too far in either extreme.

kirotheavenger wrote:Hr problem with this kind of activation, is that it massively screws over mobile armies and characters.
The unit activates, moves away, and losses the character buff. Then the character activates and catches up, too late to actually help.

Unless you implement a system a bit like Necromunda at the same time, where if you activate a character they get to bring ~2 units nearby along at the same time.

But then that would just further solidify the current meta of character bombs.

The answer to this is to expand the heroic intervention rules into activations. When you activate a unit you can activate a character within 3-6" with it. When you activate a character you can activate a unit that can protect them (drones for tau, lychguard for necrons, tyrant guard for hive tyrants). Doing this eats up their activation for the turn. It's simple and functional and works.

Bharring wrote:But how many dice are in the bag?

If it's one die per unit, bring a Knight and a bunch of IG - you're basically guarenteed to always get to activate your Knight first!

If it's equal numbers of dice for each side, one side has 12 units, the other 24 - does the other player only get to activate half his units? Activate two at a time? Or activate 12 one after another at the end of the round?

This always gets bought up. 1) if you activate your knight first then you have committed early. The opponent can now move and shoot and charge and do whatever they want without fear of the incoming threat from your knight. Activating early can be a big boon when you hit hard. It can also cripple you when you can't respond to the enemy anymore. And if you do it while your opponent has their prime targets spread out and/or in cover than you are basically wasting it.

Every unit gets a dice. If you have more units you have more dice. You can have less activations that have bigger impact or more activations with less impact. It's a direct counter to MSU spam to have the tactical flexibility of more activations.

I think each of those would complicate the issue. Armies in 40k can have many different unit counts. I've already had games I've won by having enough drops to not *really* deploy until after my opponent has committed.

The suggestion is mostly about random initiative order to prevent gaminess of the IGUGO replacement. The idea is each card represents a specific unit, not a player who picks a unit.

Not that I hate the 'just put dice in the bag'. Do any of my fears manifest in Bolt Action (never played it)?

No they don't. People worry about these things but they are not issues. You learn to cope with the new mechanics which mostly involves learning to play with a more cohesive strategy and your every action needing to be much more tactical as opposed to 40ks taking turns swinging sledge hammers at each other.