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Can I unit of Tyrant guard who have been killed in melee continue to shieldwall for a nearby Hive Tyrant? They have no wounds left and are technically "dead" but are also still on the table.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Ariexv wrote:
Can I unit of Tyrant guard who have been killed in melee continue to shieldwall for a nearby Hive Tyrant? They have no wounds left and are technically "dead" but are also still on the table.
No, it has been slain so cannot be selected for Shieldwall.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ariexv wrote:
Can I unit of Tyrant guard who have been killed in melee continue to shieldwall for a nearby Hive Tyrant? They have no wounds left and are technically "dead" but are also still on the table.
No, it has been slain so cannot be selected for Shieldwall.


I agree that’s the intent of the rule but does the RAW support that?

The Shieldwall check is just that the unit is within x” of the Tyrant, and the Lashwhip rule tells you to leave the unit on the ya le until it’s their turn to be chosen. I agree you can’t choose the unit, logically, but I’m surprised you’re not arguing the opposite - strictly RAW there’s nothing stopping you choosing a Tyrant Guard unit that is physically present, albeit pre-dead. And then you can’t allocate the MW as no one has any Wounds left and ‘the game breaks’ ZOMG etc.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ariexv wrote:
Can I unit of Tyrant guard who have been killed in melee continue to shieldwall for a nearby Hive Tyrant? They have no wounds left and are technically "dead" but are also still on the table.
No, it has been slain so cannot be selected for Shieldwall.


I agree that’s the intent of the rule but does the RAW support that?

The Shieldwall check is just that the unit is within x” of the Tyrant, and the Lashwhip rule tells you to leave the unit on the ya le until it’s their turn to be chosen. I agree you can’t choose the unit, logically, but I’m surprised you’re not arguing the opposite - strictly RAW there’s nothing stopping you choosing a Tyrant Guard unit that is physically present, albeit pre-dead. And then you can’t allocate the MW as no one has any Wounds left and ‘the game breaks’ ZOMG etc.
You make a fair point. It's 7:50 am and I've not slept.

You're right, a Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip can absorb an infinite amount of damage up until the point it gets to fight.

Thank you for the example I can use to show you're an "unreasonable" person when it comes to RaW too.

The game doesn't break, there is no requirement for a model to have any wounds left to be allocated a wound, it's just normally they aren't on the battlefield to do so. And because you'd be reduced to -1 wound, not 0 wound, it wouldn't cause the model to be removed (since Lash Whip doesn't stop it being removed again if it gets reduced to 0 wounds again).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/10 07:13:22


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Nice try but nope, I wouldn’t play it that way (and as a Tyranid player I’d stand to benefit). I was just confused that the Earth was spinning off it’s axis for a moment!

Understanding the letter of a rule is a function of being able to make concessions so the game works. In a nutshell, unless I understand why you make the calls you do in your ever-growing sig (I swear it’s giving me RSI) how can I possibly make reasonable adjustments?

On that, if a model is reduced to zero Wounds it is slain and removed - no provision exists for taking ‘infinite damage’. What happens when a model already on zero but still on the table for some special reason takes a MW? Game breaks? No rules for processing a -1W model? It’s ‘slain again’ and removed despite Lashwhips saying ‘leave it’? This is another reason why I don’t believe you can select a dead TG for Shieldwall - the rules have no way to process the amount of conflicts it generates. Just leave them for the purpose the Lashwhip rule states - to make an attack later before removing them - and treat the model as a reminder of when that will occur in the Fight Phase sequence, rather than the unit.


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






But as you correctly stated, it doesn't say to use it as a placeholder. The model is still physically there and thus can be selected for Shieldwall. You can still allocate it the mortal wound, and it gets reduced to -1 Wound, which doesn't trigger the removal rule. Page 175 makes it clear that only "Strength, Toughness and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1", all other statistics can.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/10 07:32:38


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
But as you correctly stated, it doesn't say to use it as a placeholder. The model is still physically there and thus can be selected for Shieldwall. You can still allocate it the mortal wound, and it gets reduced to -1 Wound, which doesn't trigger the removal rule. Page 175 makes it clear that only "Strength, Toughness and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1", all other statistics can.


Add it to the sig! I will accept my royalties in Haribo.

Edit: YES! I made it beyond a passive-aggressive dig!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 07:36:05


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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