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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If they're on the higher hover stick, the hull will be more than 1" away from the base of anything on the ground, and their base will be more than 1" away from any model getting as close as possible.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I believe most folks would call that modeling for advantage if not using the base supplied in the box. I would argue that when in doubt its in.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





 DarknessEternal wrote:
If they're on the higher hover stick, the hull will be more than 1" away from the base of anything on the ground, and their base will be more than 1" away from any model getting as close as possible.
By all means try it so I can call a Judge to smack you with a rulebook.
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 iGuy91 wrote:
I believe most folks would call that modeling for advantage if not using the base supplied in the box. I would argue that when in doubt its in.

It is the base supplied with the box.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
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[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 Ordana wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
If they're on the higher hover stick, the hull will be more than 1" away from the base of anything on the ground, and their base will be more than 1" away from any model getting as close as possible.
By all means try it so I can call a Judge to smack you with a rulebook.

Alternatively you could present a solution to the actual rules issue.

If there isn't one, then that would be something for an event judge to resolve, rather than just assume that players will all settle unprompted on the same house rule to get around it.

   
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Norn Queen






You are correct, due to the way the model is, Wave Serpents cannot be charged unless the model is elevated somehow.

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Grots and ratlings can because they are short enough to reach the base.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Gitdakka wrote:
Grots and ratlings can because they are short enough to reach the base.

Most anti-grav vehicles have a rule that says you ignore the base and only measure from the hull. So behind within 1" of the base, but still more than 1" away from the hull doesn't help you.

RAW Wave Serpents and some other anti-grav can only be charged by baseless or hovering vehicles.

I think a sensible house rule would be to say that if you move your model as close to the WS as physically possible, then it's considered to be within 1".
   
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Norn Queen






fresus wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
Grots and ratlings can because they are short enough to reach the base.

Most anti-grav vehicles have a rule that says you ignore the base and only measure from the hull. So behind within 1" of the base, but still more than 1" away from the hull doesn't help you.

RAW Wave Serpents and some other anti-grav can only be charged by baseless or hovering vehicles.

I think a sensible house rule would be to say that if you move your model as close to the WS as physically possible, then it's considered to be within 1".
This is why newer codexes changed the hover rule to be "Base or Hull, whichever is closest", but they have't gone back to change the older codexes rules via errata.

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I might be overlooking something, but which rule says you have to measure to the models base when fighting? I can only find 'within 1" of an enemy model'.

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Norn Queen






 mrhappyface wrote:
I might be overlooking something, but which rule says you have to measure to the models base when fighting? I can only find 'within 1" of an enemy model'.
First page of the rules, under Tools of War.
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 10:56:25


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Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
I might be overlooking something, but which rule says you have to measure to the models base when fighting? I can only find 'within 1" of an enemy model'.
First page of the rules, under Tools of War.
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

Right, I skipped straight to the charge phase.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
I might be overlooking something, but which rule says you have to measure to the models base when fighting? I can only find 'within 1" of an enemy model'.
First page of the rules, under Tools of War.
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.


Wait...WS and other "hovering" vehicles are usually on clear plastic bases to simulate them hovering...keeping this rule in mind can't you charge their "hover" base?

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 Lord Clinto wrote:
Wait...WS and other "hovering" vehicles are usually on clear plastic bases to simulate them hovering...keeping this rule in mind can't you charge their "hover" base?
The entire point of this thread is because you can't do that. The Wave Serpent version of the Hover Tank rule prohibits any measurement to their base, you always measure to the hull. Newer codexes have a different version of the Hover Tank rule that makes it measure to hull or base, whatever is closest.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/15 12:26:45


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Somerdale, NJ, USA

Gotcha, wasn't familiar with the Hover Tank special rule. So this is a modeling for advantage deal then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 12:34:47


"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 3k /// - 4k /// - 6k /// - 2k (take out the actual Genestealers, only 1.1k) 
   
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Norn Queen






 Lord Clinto wrote:
Gotcha, wasn't familiar with the WS special rule. So this is a modeling for advantage deal then.
It's not though, because even with the default base you get in the box, you can't get within 1" of the hull, because you can't put a model inside another model, and the base isn't tall enough to reach. If making a model exactly to the instructions in the box is "modelling for advantage" then literally everything is.

See the extremely technical diagram below.
My suspicion is that GW twigged this after the release of the Eldar codex, and thus changed the Hover Tank rule going forward, but of course didn't follow though with it by changing the previous rule via errata, not making the rule actually fix anything since most models can't get enough under the tank to reach the base anyway.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/15 12:42:51


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

That's better at explaining your point then most of GW's technical diagrams. =)

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

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Gainesville, VA

So it could be charged by another vehicle then (hull to hull measurement)?
   
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Norn Queen






 Kcalehc wrote:
So it could be charged by another vehicle then (hull to hull measurement)?
As long as you measure to it's hull, yes. Don't forget, just being a vehicle doesn't mean you measure to the hull, you have to be a vehicle without a base. A Valkyrie measures all ranges to it's base, a Land Raider does not.

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Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities
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Fixture of Dakka





But a Valkrye could move it's base within 1" of the flyer base per the diagram. Or any model that has an effecive height of 0 for most of it's base...

Maybe if your marines were just nicely-painted bases...
   
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Norn Queen






Bharring wrote:
But a Valkrye could move it's base within 1" of the flyer base per the diagram. Or any model that has an effecive height of 0 for most of it's base...

Maybe if your marines were just nicely-painted bases...
Yes, you could do that.

But the Wave Serpent doesn't care, because it's rule says to ALWAYS measure to the hull, so even if you get within 1" of it's base it doesn't matter.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Kansas, United States

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Bharring wrote:
But a Valkrye could move it's base within 1" of the flyer base per the diagram. Or any model that has an effecive height of 0 for most of it's base...

Maybe if your marines were just nicely-painted bases...
Yes, you could do that.

But the Wave Serpent doesn't care, because it's rule says to ALWAYS measure to the hull, so even if you get within 1" of it's base it doesn't matter.


So, if I understand correctly, a Valkyrie, which always measures from its base, charging a Wave Serpent more than 1" above the ground due to its flight stand, which always measures to its hull, cannot successfully make the charge becasue its base will always be more than 1" from the Wave Serpent's hull, BUT a Land Raider, which measures from hull to hull, could do so provided its hull could get within 1" of the Wave Serpent's hull?

Correct?
   
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 Octopoid wrote:
So, if I understand correctly, a Valkyrie, which always measures from its base, charging a Wave Serpent more than 1" above the ground due to its flight stand, which always measures to its hull, cannot successfully make the charge becasue its base will always be more than 1" from the Wave Serpent's hull, BUT a Land Raider, which measures from hull to hull, could do so provided its hull could get within 1" of the Wave Serpent's hull?

Correct?
Correct, assuming the Valkyrie is in Hover mode of course.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 19:55:16


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Has someone emailed GW to let them know they made another busted rule that doesn't work?

I don't even use bases for my waveserpents. Not for this reason - but because I don't want to mag them and flying stands usually end up breaking at some point.

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Germany

Lay the model down on the battlefield, like its fallen over. There is no rule saying you cant do that. The base will be within 1" of the WS hull.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Lay the model down on the battlefield, like its fallen over. There is no rule saying you cant do that. The base will be within 1" of the WS hull.
"It doesn't say I can't" isn't a rules argument. It doesn't say I can't take some salami and rub it on the doorknob to automatically pass morale tests either.

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 20:08:59


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Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Lay the model down on the battlefield, like its fallen over. There is no rule saying you cant do that. The base will be within 1" of the WS hull.
"It doesn't say I can't" isn't a rules argument. It doesn't say I can't take some salami and rub it on the doorknob to automatically pass morale tests either.

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.


That’s a long way to say “RAW, I agree”, BCB.

Honestly though, if you’re playing the kind of game where you have to resort to laying models down because your opponent is unreasonable enough to not house rule their model’s rules to actually function then... well, theyre not someone I’d be playing against again.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.


Citation where it says that the rules are permissive please. I cant find it. I am not altering how a model is assembled. I am putting it on its side. I could even flip it upside down, or put a base on its head. I dont see any rule preventing me from having two bases on a model, or having the base on its head.
   
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Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.


Citation where it says that the rules are permissive please. I cant find it. I am not altering how a model is assembled. I am putting it on its side. I could even flip it upside down, or put a base on its head. I dont see any rule preventing me from having two bases on a model, or having the base on its head.
Are... are you serious? I honestly cannot tell with you anymore.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.


Citation where it says that the rules are permissive please. I cant find it. I am not altering how a model is assembled. I am putting it on its side. I could even flip it upside down, or put a base on its head. I dont see any rule preventing me from having two bases on a model, or having the base on its head.
Are... are you serious? I honestly cannot tell with you anymore.


Yes i am. If my opponent is ridiculous, i can too. If he tells me i cant charge his WS because i cant get within 1" of the hull i will lay the model on its side, or flip my model upside down, put the base directly against the WS hull, and voila, i am within 1".
   
 
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