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Hi all.

Intercessors can take an auxiliary grenade launcher for their rifles.

In Codex:SM, it's 1 per 5 models on any model (need a 5 man squad and sereagnt can take it).
In Codexeathwatch it's 1 per 5 Intercessors, on an Intercessor (need a 6 man squad and a normal Intercessor can take it).

Why this discrepancy? You think this is intended making them not available in min. sized Intercessor squads in Deathwatch?

I’m guessing it’s just poor wording. They went over the old text and made sure to change the model to intercessor, so you couldn’t give a revier the AGL (which would be awesome) but didn’t think about how it would effect the numbers/sarge.

Something that probably should be FAQ’d, but might not be, as they don’t cover everything and it’s a fairly minor point.

The rule is worded: "For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher."

The way I read that is that in a group of 5 intercessors, 1 of those 5 can have an auxiliary grenade launcher. Only if you take it overly literal and do not count the Intercessor Sergeant as an Intercessor would this wording require you to bring 6.

 Cruxeh wrote:
The rule is worded: "For every five Intercessors, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher."

The way I read that is that in a group of 5 intercessors, 1 of those 5 can have an auxiliary grenade launcher. Only if you take it overly literal and do not count the Intercessor Sergeant as an Intercessor would this wording require you to bring 6.

It's not taken too literal. It's the way every of these rules is worded.
A unit of Intercessors consists of an Intercessor Sergeant and 4 Intercessors.
That's why the Veteran Sergeant has a different entry than a Deathwatch Veteran of what he can take. And why a Black Shield has a different entry what he can take.

Agreed, if you have 4+Sergeant you cannot take a Grenade Launcher. This means a unit of 4+Sergeant can't take a Grenade Launcher, while a unit of 5+Sergeant+Any Other 4 Models may. There is no way to take two Grenade Launchers in a Deathwatch Intercessor Squad. GW may or may not fix this in errata.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Agreed, if you have 4+Sergeant you cannot take a Grenade Launcher. This means a unit of 4+Sergeant can't take a Grenade Launcher, while a unit of 5+Sergeant+Any Other 4 Models may. There is no way to take two Grenade Launchers in a Deathwatch Intercessor Squad. GW may or may not fix this in errata.

There is so a way. You would need to take a full ten man squad of intercessors to get 2 grenade launchers. You guys are seriously over thinking this. The sgt is an intercessor so he would count toward your 5. The difference between the intercessors and the regular kill team is that the sgt is optional on the regular killteam. The sgt automatically comes with the intercessors. The killteam is all veterans they are the senior guys who have been in countless battles. No need for a sgt to run the squad.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Agreed, if you have 4+Sergeant you cannot take a Grenade Launcher. This means a unit of 4+Sergeant can't take a Grenade Launcher, while a unit of 5+Sergeant+Any Other 4 Models may. There is no way to take two Grenade Launchers in a Deathwatch Intercessor Squad. GW may or may not fix this in errata.

There is so a way. You would need to take a full ten man squad of intercessors to get 2 grenade launchers. You guys are seriously over thinking this. The sgt is an intercessor so he would count toward your 5. The difference between the intercessors and the regular kill team is that the sgt is optional on the regular killteam. The sgt automatically comes with the intercessors. The killteam is all veterans they are the senior guys who have been in countless battles. No need for a sgt to run the squad.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong.
By your rules interpretation, a Black Shield in a Veteran unit is still a Veteran and could take a Heavy Thunderhammer. That's not how it works.

And also by your interpretation, this rule from the Intercessors is redundant: Any Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant may replace their
bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle (pg 88) or stalker bolt rifle (pg 90).

That's not what I'm saying. I didn't even say anything about the black shield. If he doesn't have the HTH as an option then he doesn't have it.
That being said I was talking about the intercessor sgt specifically. Whether it's redundant or not the rule says he can change his gun just like the other guys so I'm not seeing your point there. I'm not going to argue with you on semantics any longer it's a waste of time. Interpret it how you want your still over thinking it. 5 guys 1 grenade launcher, 10 guys 2 grenade launchers. That's how everyone at my FLGS interprets it so I it's how we are playing it. If your so sure your right contact GW on the Facebook group.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. I didn't even say anything about the black shield. If he doesn't have the HTH as an option then he doesn't have it.
That being said I was talking about the intercessor sgt specifically. Whether it's redundant or not the rule says he can change his gun just like the other guys so I'm not seeing your point there. I'm not going to argue with you on semantics any longer it's a waste of time. Interpret it how you want your still over thinking it. 5 guys 1 grenade launcher, 10 guys 2 grenade launchers. That's how everyone at my FLGS interprets it so I it's how we are playing it. If your so sure your right contact GW on the Facebook group.

Your point is that the Intercessor Sergeant is also an Intercessor.
I draw a comparison to other rules, because by your logic inGame the Black Shield would still be a Veteran and a Veteran can take a Heavy Thunderhammer.
And the rule does specifically not say "model" (like it did in Codex: Space Marines), it says Intercessor.

But yeah, let's drop it.

I would never, ever rules lawyer this hard. You guys are a step above the normal lot.

But you're absolutely right. Pity, too - I was going to really enjoy using a grenade launcher in these units. Not worth giving up a Sgt.

If I were to guess at the intention, they wanted to avoid a situation where a 10 man mixed unit of Intercessors unlocks 2 nade launchers - would explain the change in wording. Probably should have just said "1 Intercessor can take a grenade launcher".

Man... you guys.

Not looking at Deathwatch, only the standard Intercessor squad entry from any of the marine codexes.

You buy the squad as a 5 man unit, all of which are Intercessors (Sergeant + his 4 squaddies). The sergeant is *Still* an intercessor, and you purchase whatever rifle you wish to equip the squad with for him as well (Bolt Rifle, etc). He counts toward the number of intercessors in the unit because, he, too, is an intercessor. So that 5 man unit of intercessors can have *one* Aux. Grenade Launcher in there. You don't have to buy a 6th model to unlock it. That's asinine and rules lawyer behavior to the apex predator level, which is frankly stupid.

Why anyone would argue this is beyond me, and I'm pretty sure that these people are the reason old GW went dark for so many years.

In closing, to anyone arguing for the 6th intercessor to unlock the grenade launcher:



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Man... you guys.

Not looking at Deathwatch, only the standard Intercessor squad entry from any of the marine codexes.

You buy the squad as a 5 man unit, all of which are Intercessors (Sergeant + his 4 squaddies). The sergeant is *Still* an intercessor, and you purchase whatever rifle you wish to equip the squad with for him as well (Bolt Rifle, etc). He counts toward the number of intercessors in the unit because, he, too, is an intercessor. So that 5 man unit of intercessors can have *one* Aux. Grenade Launcher in there. You don't have to buy a 6th model to unlock it. That's asinine and rules lawyer behavior to the apex predator level, which is frankly stupid.

Why anyone would argue this is beyond me, and I'm pretty sure that these people are the reason old GW went dark for so many years.

In closing, to anyone arguing for the 6th intercessor to unlock the grenade launcher:



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I've said it before and I'll say it again GW designs their rules with the assumption you approuch it from a common sense prespective, not pour over the exact wording like a lawyer.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Man... you guys.

Not looking at Deathwatch, only the standard Intercessor squad entry from any of the marine codexes.

You buy the squad as a 5 man unit, all of which are Intercessors (Sergeant + his 4 squaddies). The sergeant is *Still* an intercessor, and you purchase whatever rifle you wish to equip the squad with for him as well (Bolt Rifle, etc). He counts toward the number of intercessors in the unit because, he, too, is an intercessor. So that 5 man unit of intercessors can have *one* Aux. Grenade Launcher in there. You don't have to buy a 6th model to unlock it. That's asinine and rules lawyer behavior to the apex predator level, which is frankly stupid.

Why anyone would argue this is beyond me, and I'm pretty sure that these people are the reason old GW went dark for so many years.

In closing, to anyone arguing for the 6th intercessor to unlock the grenade launcher:



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

If you would've read my initial post, you can see that I specifically compared the Intercessor rules from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Deathwatch.
The rules are not identical and your argument is basically null as it only describes the Space Marine entry which is worded perfectly fine.

they changed the wording because death watch can take mixed squads, they don't want a situation of "3 intercessors, 2 hellblasters I take a grenade launcher on my intercessor"

BrianDavion wrote:
they changed the wording because death watch can take mixed squads, they don't want a situation of "3 intercessors, 2 hellblasters I take a grenade launcher on my intercessor"

It's a reasonable explanation, and I hope you and Nevelon are right. But it will definitely need an Errata.
I posted the question to Facebook early but didn't receive an answer yet. Or is there an email address for rule questions like there is for AoS?

 Hanskrampf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they changed the wording because death watch can take mixed squads, they don't want a situation of "3 intercessors, 2 hellblasters I take a grenade launcher on my intercessor"

It's a reasonable explanation, and I hope you and Nevelon are right. But it will definitely need an Errata.
I posted the question to Facebook early but didn't receive an answer yet. Or is there an email address for rule questions like there is for AoS?

Yes it is now 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

BrianDavion wrote:
they changed the wording because death watch can take mixed squads, they don't want a situation of "3 intercessors, 2 hellblasters I take a grenade launcher on my intercessor"

You're as close as you could be to the right answer except that your example is wrong. You couldn't do that for another reason - it's illegal to form a squad like that in the first place.

You have to, 100%, no subtlety to it whatsoever, start a unit with 4 Intercessors and 1 Intercessor Sergeant. Can't do 3 Intercessors, 2 Hellblasters. Once you have your 5 models, you can then add Hellblasters. Or Inceptors. Or Reivers. Or Aggressors. Or even more Intercessors (u wot m8). What the rule seems to be trying to tackle is exactly what you mentioned - more specifically, limiting the ability for a 10 man mixed unit from taking two grenade launchers. How that was worth limiting, I'll never bloody know. But in C:SM, you could do a 5 man squad with 4 Intercessors and 1 Intercessor Sgt. and take one. You could do a 10 man squad with 1 Sgt. and 9 Intercessors and take two - because the wording was "For every 5 models..."

Now, in C: DW, take a 10 man Intercessor squad split as such: 5 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors. They could get one. If that was a real legal unit makeup. If it were just 10 Intercessors instead, it'd get access to two (even though it can't be, but let's pretend). If it stays 5 Intercessors only (which you can't actually do again, but let's continue to pretend), it gets access to one. But if any of those example fictional fantasy units wants to add an Intercessor Sgt. in place of one of the Intercessors, then you can only ever take 1 in the 10 man unit (you can never take two if you have a Sgt...ever).

Back in reality, they can only take one now if you have 5 total Intercessors, not including the Sgt. - thus a unit of 6 models if you want it. All because the wording says "For every 5 Intercessors..." instead of the C:SM wording.

Unfortunately, those are the rules.

Sigh. Trust GW to screw up even this one.

This should really be in YMDC.

Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

Praise Emperor. I was worried noone had pointed out this obvious bit.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

This is also true for Veterans, where Black Shields and Watch Sergeants share the same keyword as Veterans. Does that mean you can equip a Black Shield with a HTH, or a Watch Sergeant with a frag cannon?

The answer to both those things is (sadly) no. This is unfortunately no different.

I think this won't come up except in tournaments. Furthermore, if folks write in to ask for clarification on this, they'll simply errata it to the C:SM option. There's actually no real benefit in having two in a squad unless you're combat squading anyway.

It is so obvious that you can have a grenade launcher in a unit of 5 (of which one is a sergeant). I cannot believe people don't get this.

They just want to make sure it is on an intercessor not an Aggressor/Reiver/Inceptor/Hellblaster.

CassianSol wrote:
It is so obvious that you can have a grenade launcher in a unit of 5 (of which one is a sergeant). I cannot believe people don't get this.

They just want to make sure it is on an intercessor not an Aggressor/Reiver/Inceptor/Hellblaster.

I wish "it is so obvious" worked in tournaments. It sadly does not.

But it is obvious, no argument there at all. The problem is that the 'obvious' is an assumption and is not reflected by how it's written, so it might be best for people to ensure that the obvious gets clarified by writing in to ask this question. What we can both agree on is it is almost guaranteed to be unintentional and that your friendly games will not at all be affected by it. Still should be addressed in an FAQ, so get those questions in! Doesn't hurt anybody or anything to send them in. Not sure why I'm sensing so much resistance to that...

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

Yeah, too bad it's written as 'Intercessor' instead of 'INTERCESSOR' in the rule. So the rule doesn't refer to the keyword.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

Yeah, too bad it's written as 'Intercessor' instead of 'INTERCESSOR' in the rule. So the rule doesn't refer to the keyword.

None of the keyword based rules include all caps in the text. Your ruling would invalidate the entire SM strategem stack, along with most other factions.

Common sense - what a great thing.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

Yeah, too bad it's written as 'Intercessor' instead of 'INTERCESSOR' in the rule. So the rule doesn't refer to the keyword.

None of the keyword based rules include all caps in the text. Your ruling would invalidate the entire SM strategem stack, along with most other factions.

Uhhhh, yes, they are in caps if they affect keywords.
Stop making stuff up.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Take a peek at the keywords for intercessors. Both the Sergeant and the regular primaris share the same key word "Intercessor." Based off of that, the Sergeant is not different, and thus he counts towards the 5 model requirement to field an aux grenade launcher.

Yeah, too bad it's written as 'Intercessor' instead of 'INTERCESSOR' in the rule. So the rule doesn't refer to the keyword.

None of the keyword based rules include all caps in the text. Your ruling would invalidate the entire SM strategem stack, along with most other factions.

Uhhhh, yes, they are in caps if they affect keywords.
Stop making stuff up.

Correct.

Killshot refers to Predators (unit name), Cluster Mines refers to Scout Bike Squad (unit name).

Born in the Saddle refers to WHITE SCARS BIKER unit (keywords), Machine Empathy refers to IRON HANDS VEHICLE (keywords)

FAQ resolved this issue, GW changed the wording so it reflects the RAI.

Being an errata, it shows that everyone saying an Intercessor Sergeant is still an Intercessor was wrong though
(Sorry, couldn't resist)