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Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






My friend wants to play literally nothing but suits for his Tau army, and complains every time he plays or even mentions Tau that he shouldnt need Markerlights to play well, and that Tau arent a gunline or infantry based army. Is there literally any proper response to this, or should I just keep shrugging? I want his list to work because it is neat, but I dont see a way it could without taking basic troops or using ML.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




GW redesigned Tau or reset their design, they no longer work the way he wants to play them, he can keep trying to make a round peg fit a square hole or move to another army that would allow him to play that way, or adapt to the new reality of playing tau in 8th edition. Also tau being all suits wasn't how they were originally designed, or how they work in 8th edition.
   
Made in au
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Yeah, nah. Overcosted and with a BS of 4+ you kinda need markerlights.

"Shouldn't need them to play well." But ya do this edition. It's what they are now. He can deal with it or move on. Is it an army he's had for ages built up as a suit army? Because if so I feel for him. If it's a direction he's recently decided to go, too bad.

If his complaining is annoying you, let him know. "Can you stop going on about that? It's starting to get irritating."
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Matora wrote:
Yeah, nah. Overcosted and with a BS of 4+ you kinda need markerlights.

"Shouldn't need them to play well." But ya do this edition. It's what they are now. He can deal with it or move on. Is it an army he's had for ages built up as a suit army? Because if so I feel for him. If it's a direction he's recently decided to go, too bad.

If his complaining is annoying you, let him know. "Can you stop going on about that? It's starting to get irritating."


Aaaaactually, he didnt. He OWNS all the infantry and all that but Crisis suits were his favorite unit, and he complains quite a bit about JSJ being gone, and riptides no longer being so great. Was that stuff heavy meta?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 14:20:36


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Riptides are pretty decent. Suits can be made to work. I'm just not sure about an all suit army.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vaklor4 wrote:
Aaaaactually, he didnt. He OWNS all the infantry and all that but Crisis suits were his favorite unit, and he complains quite a bit about JSJ being gone, and riptides no longer being so great. Was that stuff heavy meta?


JSJ going hurts a lot but that said it doesn't surprise me given how much people complained about it being OP.

Riptides were unplayable with index rules but with codex price cuts and strategums they are definitely not unplayable. Sounds like he's just wishing for the days of riptide wing.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




They can work, but you lose so much CP from avoiding battalions and brigades that it is never going to be an optimal list.

Edit: I did miss that the OP's friend wants to play Tau without infantry OR markerlights. Pretty much the only markerlight-less lists are going to be Shadowsun + triple Stormsurge or something incredibly silly like double Y'vahra and a Tiger Shark, so yeah, don't play Tau if you don't like markerlights. It's an army defining mechanic, it's like playing Thousand Sons but not wanting to use psychic powers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 17:34:47


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






If you house rule Suits to be BS3 then maybe. Otherwise no, it's overcosted and you lose too many CP
   
Made in au
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Then yeah, sorry for your loss and move on. A lot of changes this edition and a kick in the gut for his Tau.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

An all Suit+Drone army works fine, it’s just CP starved. An all Suit army has issues, though.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I find that my broadside riptide heavy list works ok, but the other suits aren’t quite worth it.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

He sounds like a crying baby who needs to have his sense of priorities checked. T'au were NEVER meant to be played with only suits, even the most simple minded amongst us would have gleaned that if they read just an ounce of the fluff.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 Hollow wrote:
He sounds like a crying baby who needs to have his sense of priorities checked. T'au were NEVER meant to be played with only suits, even the most simple minded amongst us would have gleaned that if they read just an ounce of the fluff.



Well, that's just pulling a middle finger to all us former enclave players.
We used to indeed play pure suit armies, but now it's practically impossible.
Forget crisis being utterly overpriced and only ever decent with ion, you really CAN'T build a tau list at all these days without gunline infantry unless you are willing to forgo battalions, as they practically demand you take a fireblade with the are restrictions, who are utterly unique to tau.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Enclaves being suit only armies definataly wasn't part of the original 3rd edition fluff, I get people built XV8 or bigger only lists but quite frankly I would rather see JSJ return before they bring back Monat XV8's as a troop choice.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 BoomWolf wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
He sounds like a crying baby who needs to have his sense of priorities checked. T'au were NEVER meant to be played with only suits, even the most simple minded amongst us would have gleaned that if they read just an ounce of the fluff.



Well, that's just pulling a middle finger to all us former enclave players.
We used to indeed play pure suit armies, but now it's practically impossible.
Forget crisis being utterly overpriced and only ever decent with ion, you really CAN'T build a tau list at all these days without gunline infantry unless you are willing to forgo battalions, as they practically demand you take a fireblade with the are restrictions, who are utterly unique to tau.


He actually doesn't like the Enclave fluff and doesn't use it as a sept, he uses the standard Tau sept. So that's not even an arguement here.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Hollow wrote:
He sounds like a crying baby who needs to have his sense of priorities checked. T'au were NEVER meant to be played with only suits, even the most simple minded amongst us would have gleaned that if they read just an ounce of the fluff.


Way to be extremely condescending and insulting... not to mention also wrong. You might want to review the Farsight Enclaves fluff.

Farsight Enclaves armies were meant to be suit only armies for several editions now. GW effectively killed a whole sub-faction's play style with the latest changes. It's a shame. I had a pretty sizable T'au Empire army and it's now been shelved because it's pretty terrible. Just about everything got worse and I can no longer ally in any of my random other Greater Good recruits (IG as Gue'vesa, Radical AdMech negotiating for tech, etc). It's not so much that generic T'au fluff players are upset. It's more that Farsight Enclaves fluff players are upset.

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Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Riptides are good. Commanders are great either, though it's harder to get multiples of them now. Crysis suits are overpriced. You need a swarm of drones to be competitive.

Just out of curiosity, was there ever this time tau didn't depend on markers? If anything, now is the time marker bonuses are at their weakest compared to 5-7 ed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 21:12:37


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I'm no Tau player, but it seems reasonable to me for people to want to run suit armies given that those are the models that set the army apart and without them they're just Xenos Guard.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Well - broadsides are pretty dang good and dang near indestructible with a hefty portion of sheild drones hiding behind LOS but having the ability to intercept lascannon shots with a 4++ save and a 5+ FNP for 10 points.

I think core in every tau list should really be 3 missle broadsides with 8-10 sheild drones backing them up - Then you use command and control node and they will dish out some much freaking damage while being impossible to remove your opponents will hate you. + In tau sept they are basically unchargeable. +1 to wound stratagem is insane on them as well.

Crisis suits are so bad they shouldn't even be considered in casual games. They really are that bad. If you want to run any suits - run the forge world ones that have 4 burst cannons with advanced targeting - they are at least "okay" for their points.

Riptides are okay - but you really only want to bring 1. They aren't indestructible anymore like they used to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 21:18:15


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







If you avoid Crisis suits in favour of Stealthsuits/Ghostkeels/Riptides/Broadsides/Commanders and take the Target Locks so your Riptides/Ghostkeels can move and fire at no penalty you can try playing Markerlight-less 'suit-focused Tau, but it's not going to win any tournaments.

Also remember Farsight Enclaves for to-wound rerolls on aggressive battlesuit elements.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






As someone who plays almost exclusively gimmicky armies this is what I gotta say:

It sort of comes with the territory.

It is kind of a bitter pill but if you want maximum effectiveness, you gotta abandon your theme. The Tau were designed for combined-arms warfare, which is why their units often had synergy (and when a Tau unit showed up with no weaknesses, such as 6th Riptide, then you get a broken unit). As for Farsight Enclaves, it's original incarnation was also one of those armies that were considered a "fun" side army and not meant for serious play (Originally, you could only field something like that by taking Farsight, who was beholden to the old special character rules where your opponent had to agree to it and your army had to be a certain size).

However, his list can work if he gets creative and don't expect hand-holding from the game. I have not seen the new rules for Tau (forgot if the codex was out or if it's still just the Chapter Approved stuff) so I can't comment on specifics, but what I do for my gimmick armies is this:

What are it's strengths and weaknesses? Can I play up my strengths so I can ignore my weaknesses? If not, can I mitigate my weaknesses somehow, even if it's not point efficient to do so?

I usually like running monster/vehicle armies and one of the biggest issues is lack of bubblewrap. So I often subscribe to the "Distraction Carnifex" method where I load up on some cheap, but scary on paper tanks/monsters that I buy specifically for the purpose of scaring the opponent and just dying. Usually if I can get some speed modification or deepstrike on them, I'll take it if it's cheap enough, and have them just go at the enemy in a way they can't be ignored (usually by charging into melee against a gunline). Surprisingly it works a lot better than it sounds, even against opponents who are aware of this habit.

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Once you said you haven’t read the new codex, your comment kind of became meaningless, sorry to say.

SJ

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 15:17:39


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Toronto, Canada

I have been running all suit armies for years. In terms of how competitive they are - its really all over the place and very much rock/paper/scissors depending on the army you are matched against.

Below is an example of an army I would run:

Bork'an
174 Coldstar Commander: 4x Fusion
42 Cadre Fireblade
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
46 3x Gun Drone, 1x Marker Drone

FSE
161 Coldstar Commander: 3x Fusion, Shield (Fusion Blades)
289 3x XV8 + 4x Gun Drone, 2x Marker Drone: 2x Fusion + Drone Controller, 3x BC, 3x BC
349 3x XV8 + 4x Gun Drone, 2x Marker Drone: 2x Fusion + Drone Controller, 3x CIB, 3x CIB
131 3x Stealth + 2x Gun Drone, 1x Marker Drone: 1x Fusion, 2x BC

Sa'cea
160 Commander: 3x MP, ATS
171 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HRR, 2x SMS, Target Lock
171 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HRR, 2x SMS, Target Lock
180 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HYMP, 2x SMS, Drone Controller

1984

   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

 Kriswall wrote:
Way to be extremely condescending and insulting... not to mention also wrong. You might want to review the Farsight Enclaves fluff.
.


I'm not wrong. I have more than 15k of T'au. Have collected them since they first arrived and I'm very familiar with the Enclave fluff. You are the one who is incorrect if you think that Enclaves are about having a force made up exclusively with suits.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Kriswall wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
He sounds like a crying baby who needs to have his sense of priorities checked. T'au were NEVER meant to be played with only suits, even the most simple minded amongst us would have gleaned that if they read just an ounce of the fluff.


Way to be extremely condescending and insulting... not to mention also wrong. You might want to review the Farsight Enclaves fluff.

Farsight Enclaves armies were meant to be suit only armies for several editions now. GW effectively killed a whole sub-faction's play style with the latest changes. It's a shame. I had a pretty sizable T'au Empire army and it's now been shelved because it's pretty terrible. Just about everything got worse and I can no longer ally in any of my random other Greater Good recruits (IG as Gue'vesa, Radical AdMech negotiating for tech, etc). It's not so much that generic T'au fluff players are upset. It's more that Farsight Enclaves fluff players are upset.


Clarification: Farsight Enclaves as "play all Battlesuits!" is the product of GW oversimplifying how certain armies operate in order to sell a "buff this one unit and make it Troops" supplement.

Lorewise Farsight Enclaves don't have Ethereals, and because they're smaller and less well-supplied they tend to operate an almost Space Marine-style mobile/surgical cadre rather than fielding tanks, large infantry formations, or large battlesuits. An all-Crisis-suit list is something Farsight Enclaves are more likely to do than an Empire Sept, but that doesn't make it the only way to play a fluffy Farsight Enclaves list any more than White Scars have thrown away their infantry weapons so they can take more bikes.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Still, to have the option only to lose it kind of sucks.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 gossipmeng wrote:
I have been running all suit armies for years. In terms of how competitive they are - its really all over the place and very much rock/paper/scissors depending on the army you are matched against.

Below is an example of an army I would run:

Bork'an
174 Coldstar Commander: 4x Fusion
42 Cadre Fireblade
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
35 5x Strike Team: Pulse Rifles
46 3x Gun Drone, 1x Marker Drone

FSE
161 Coldstar Commander: 3x Fusion, Shield (Fusion Blades)
289 3x XV8 + 4x Gun Drone, 2x Marker Drone: 2x Fusion + Drone Controller, 3x BC, 3x BC
349 3x XV8 + 4x Gun Drone, 2x Marker Drone: 2x Fusion + Drone Controller, 3x CIB, 3x CIB
131 3x Stealth + 2x Gun Drone, 1x Marker Drone: 1x Fusion, 2x BC

Sa'cea
160 Commander: 3x MP, ATS
171 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HRR, 2x SMS, Target Lock
171 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HRR, 2x SMS, Target Lock
180 XV88 + 2x Missile Drone: HYMP, 2x SMS, Drone Controller

1984
Really gimping yourself by not taking more BC stealth MSU for screening. They're so good right now defensively and offensively point for point.

But as others have pointed out, crisis list is dead because of minimum unit size and its PPM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 03:47:17


 
   
Made in au
Human Auxiliary to the Empire




Just for the lists and stuff remember: drones can only use saviour protocols for suits that share the same <sept> keyword.
   
 
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