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So, I know when the codex first came out that there was a lot of complaints by TS players. After months of playing the TS codex, most of them are warranted. This is my idea for making the TS viable. Now I have no delusions that GW is going to read this and go, "hey this guy is right, lets do all of this!!", and I know people are going to disagree with me here or are sick of TS players complaining, but I just want to put this out there really for my own cathartic feeling since I love this army as will play it no matter what.

So what would I do if I worked at GW? First I would just embrace the whole TS are not really a chaos space marine legion anymore and are sorcerers in space. I would port over more units from CSM and AOS as this would allow for a more expansive collection, with only to add a few new kits to the production line for TS. Fluff wise I would go with Magnus' return to real space and teleporting the Planet of Sorcerers into real space has created sort of a capital for Tzeentch followers in the universe. All sorts of creatures, independent units, heretics, aliens, etc. have come to the Planet of Sorcerers ("PloS") drawn there by Tzeentch to follow the word of Magnus, Tzeentch's favored champion. So now you have a situation where the TS really aren't a CSM legion anymore, but the commanders and elite shock troops of a grand force of Tzeentch. This also makes sense to me as there really are not a lot of TS left in the universe, and using "expendable" creatures and beings as flak, while the real TS sit back and are shock troops, who only come in to secure victory, seems like what they would really be forced to do given their limited number. So with that background this is my proposed Codex:Thousand Sons. (BTW if you don't like that background, it is cool, I also would be fore a more "traditional" TS:CSM, but this is my idea).


Legion Trait
Keep the +6 inches for psychics, but have something that applies to non-character units. I was toying with +1 Invul with a 5++ to units without, but I think this would end up being to good, taking a lot of these units to 4++ which if you get hot rolls, is really tough for a lot of armies to deal with. I was also thinking re-roll 1's on Invul and 6++ to units without, but again this could be too good. What I think would be really not to great, and fit in line with the Tzeentch gives and Tzeentch takes away type feel you want for TS is what they gave some of the Harlequins which is at the beginning of the turn roll two dice, pick the lowest and discard to hit rolls of that number. Now as a CSM off shoot this would only apply to Infantry, bikes (cavalry in this case) and hellbrutes. (this needs to be changed. Either all armies should get "tactics" for all units, or all armies should have the "tactics" restricted to certian units).

Keep the death to false emperor

All is dust: This needs to be changed to D1 and D2 weapons. D1 does nothing for SoT who already have a 2+ against the vast majority of these, and really, D2 weapons still tend to be anti-infantry multi-shot weapons that the dust nature should still mitigate, as opposed to like a d3 damage weapon which represents a bigger explosion. It would also make Rubrics and SoT a lot more viable.

HQs

Ahriman: so it bugs me that his staff, which since I started using him in 4th edition, has always helped with psychic shooting, and now it is just a force staff that doesn't need to roll for damage. I think he should get a 10 point or so increase, but add that his staff allows him to cast smite twice. I think this would be a nice fluffy way to pay tribute to the past itterations of Ahriman. Also change is aura as below.

Exalted Sorcerers : so the re-roll 1 to hit aura is not fluffy to me, and is unnecessary as daemon princes do this, and are straight out better in ever way. I would reduce their points a tad, and change their aura to the re-roll 1's for psychic tests. Now they have a purpose in helping other sorcerers cast, and provide a much needed perils protection for an army that whole thing is psychic powers.

NEW UNIT: Exalted Sorcerer in Terminator Armor: Either make a new kit (I would suggest making it a duel kit with a new named character) or just allow a standard chaos sorcerer terminator be allowed to use this entry.

Sorcerer and Sorcerer in Terminator Armor: No change, maybe a slight point decrease.

Daemon Princes: Yea these are an example of a perfectly balanced unit. No change.

Warpsmith: So, the TS before their turn to chaos had to have tech-marines. Some of these had to be at least a bit psychic. So, add warpsmith to represent this. However, I would also make him a psychic in TS armies, with one spell, smite + power from change discipline. This would add a much needed cheaper HQ choice for TS.

Orgid Thundermage: This is a unit ported over from AOS to expand the HQ slots, and fit a need as a Tzzangar leader HQ. I would give him stats of a DP but reduced by 1 for most things. One spell from Change, and smite. It is also a cool model (I use mine as a DP).

HQ go up from 5 to 8 choices.

Elites:

Tgor Shaman: Good the way he is, however a 4++ for him would not be game breaking, and would really help him survive.

Hellbrure: Yea there are issues with these guys (CC weapons are WAY overcosted), but those are issues with them for CSM as well so leave same unless fixing with CSM.

Scarab Occult Terminators: OK, so these guys need the same fix as normal terminators, namely a 10 point price drop, or more wounds/attacks. The Terminator issue affects many Codex. There is a whole discussion on this on this forum, including my own imput, which I won't repeat here.

Possessed: So yea, why don't we have these? So as possessed are pretty independent of CSM legions, the fluff is these guys are drawn to the PloS. I would also change them for TS to reflect the Tzeentch-iness of them for this army, and would remove their random chart, and replace it with they can cast smite, but on one dice and have the same shooting attack as a pink horror.

Cockatrice: This is another port over from AOS. TS are sorcerers and have "collected" many exotic beasts from other worlds/dimensions to breed on the PloS. Stats like maybe Tyrannd warrior ish,, with one moral wound to any unit within 1" at start of fight phase on 4+ (you know the petrifying gaze).

Mutilators: Yea again these guys have their own cult, and would be drawn by Tzeentch to PloS. They also fill a nich for TS that they don't do for CSM, since it they would be one of the few close combat oriented units in the TS (as opposed to CSM who have beserkers etc.).

NEW UNIT: a Rubic dreadnought: Really just use the same concept as the old Forge-world one, make it slower, add "all is dust" let it take twin reaper cannons, hellfayer on top, give 5++ and good to go. I would buy three of these. GW make this and take my $$$$$$!!!!!

Elites go from 3 to 7

Troops:

Cultists: good

Tzannagors: These are pretty good, maybe, just maybe, a one point drop for the ones with the Chainsword, as the blades are just that much better, but no change would be fine.

Rubrics: Why are they 18 points without their gun, when a plague marine is 17 with all equipment, and the plague marine is 20 times better. Rubrics need to be 17 points with their gun. That would be 1 more point for the all is dust, and one point more for the 5++ (which is not great on a 3+ model) over a CSM, which would be fair considering Rubrics are slower and lost the opportunity to take a slew of great wepons like plasma and laser cannons. Also, soul reapers in squads of 5.

Troop stay same number

Fast

Spawn: No one cares, ever, in any edition ever.

Enlightened: So, these guys look great on paper. However, T4 2W and 5++ as the only defense make these guys are very fragile unit. They probably need to be cheaper or have a base 4++. Also the bows are not 2 points good, and should only be 1 point.

Warptalons: Again these guys hunt in packs independent of the CSM legions, so drawn to the PloS. Also again they fill a need for TS in being close combat.

Chimera: Like the actual monster from AOS not the transport. Again, TS take and breed all kinds of dangerous beasts for war purposes. Give it flamer attacks for flame breath, fly and stats like the flying monsters the Tyrannds have.

Two more new Units. There are a lot of possiblities here, but TS really still would need like two more Fast choices. Rubrics with jumpbacks could work, maybe a Rubrics on discs, or Aspiring Sorcerers on discs, daemon vehicle walker, Rubrics or some moral guys on Tzeentch charriots. There is a lot that could be done, and I would buy any of these.

Fast 2 to 6 with new units.

Heavy,

I would really leave this alone, except add Obliterators some logic as Mutilators, but they fill the lack of Anti-tank need. Also maybe a squad of Rubrics that can take 4 soul reapers like a havoc equivalent

Flyers

Hell Drake: He needs to have the flamer be 2D6 but D1, and he needs either more attacks (against infantry) or better attacks (against vehicles) as right now he doesn't have enough attacks against infantry, and is not strong enough against vehicles.

NEW UNIT: Storm-Raven or whatever. Yea TS, CSM and DG all need a Storm-Raven equivalent. Why keep the land raiders and not the storm-ravens? Also GW make this so I can buy like 2 or 3 of them!!!.

Lord of War
Magnus - I don't have him and have not used or been against, so don't know if I would change anything.

Weapons
Soul reaper - This gun again looks great on paper, but really isn't. I think it should go to 22 points, but be 6 shots. Assault cannons are also roto guns and have 6 shots, and are 22 points, so this would be equivalent, and lose one St for the extra AP.

Hellfyre missiles: yea they cost to much for what they do. They should be like 15 points, or make them 25 points and make them d6 damage.

Warpflamer weapons: All need to be cheaper. +2 points on their non-warp equivalent.

That's it, no other unique weapons despite not having access to plasma guns, laser cannons, melta-guns, etc.

Spells
All the Change disipline other than weaver need to lose 1 point of warp charge, except the healing spell, which needs to stay the same, but can restore d3 wounds, or if targeting a unit, bring back one model with one wound remaining.

Warlord traits
I would remove the re-roll deny tests and make that a relic staff that allows that. I would make the one that lets you get an additional spell, also allow an additional cast, which would make that something you might actually pick. The others I would leave, and I would replace the deny one, with flames of spite from CSM book, as using talons covered in warp flame seems very Tzeentch, and that one might actually get used.

Relics: Most armies don't have a lot of good relics, but I would replace the staff one that allows retreat and recharge which makes no sense for TS at all, with a staff that allows re-roles of deny.


Stratagems:
So if we are not just going to add some, I would drop Kill Shot, Line breaker, and Fire Frenzy as none of these really fit with TS. I would replace with a stratagem that allows Rubrics/SoT to shoot again for two CP. This would fit and give Rubrics and SoT a boost and fits that gors can fight again. I would add one that allows psychic test to be taken with three dice, pick the two you want for two CP. Finally, I would have one that lest you take your add +1 to invul max 3++ for one CP.

That is my ideas, thanks for reading if you actually did. Let me know what you think, but I really just wrote this for me.

SOT get a lot of benefit from All Is Dust against, say, Powerswords. +1 Invuln on them for that. And really? Dust helps against CHAINFISTS? (That's the only D2 weapon I can think of offhand.)

 JNAProductions wrote:
SOT get a lot of benefit from All Is Dust against, say, Powerswords. +1 Invuln on them for that. And really? Dust helps against CHAINFISTS? (That's the only D2 weapon I can think of offhand.)

it is more for shooting. There are lots of d2 shooting

 xeen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
SOT get a lot of benefit from All Is Dust against, say, Powerswords. +1 Invuln on them for that. And really? Dust helps against CHAINFISTS? (That's the only D2 weapon I can think of offhand.)

it is more for shooting. There are lots of d2 shooting

Which is a reaction to GW handing out invulnerable saves like candy. It's made lascannons etc borderline unusable as they are bouncing off of 3-5++'s or being savaged by multiple minus to hit shenanigans. Hence why players are going for the multi shot fixed damage output. Boosting invulnerable saves just adds to the issue.

I'm all for the idea of changing / buffing thousand sons, but a lot of this isn't thought out at all...

Ahriman casting smite twice, rerolling 1's, for 10 point increase (Casting smite thrice with your suggested warlord trait)?

All is dust no longer having a counter?

Daemon Princes, balanced? (They were spammed at the latest GT)

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I'm all for the idea of changing / buffing thousand sons, but a lot of this isn't thought out at all...

Ahriman casting smite twice, rerolling 1's, for 10 point increase (Casting smite thrice with your suggested warlord trait)?

All is dust no longer having a counter?

Daemon Princes, balanced? (They were spammed at the latest GT)

Yea I didn't think out the Arhiman with the re-roll and the two smites, which might make him more points, which I am all for as long as the points match the output. Although I don't think two smites is super devastating if your opponent knows how to screen. I would keep the same warlord trait he has now.

There is lots of counter to All is Dust. D3 damage, which there is a lot of in this game in shooting. Also All is Dust is one of those abilities that looks really good on paper, but in reality is not really that great. For the terminators, right now it is meaningless against almost all shooting attacks as they already have 2+ so it only affects the handful of -1 but still 1d weapons. As for Rubrics, right now it seems like the All is Dust is a two point-ish ability. I would gladly pay two less points and not have all is dust. It is not like all is dust is on cheap troops that I can spam. Even if I want to build a Rubric heavy army, that would be what like three squads? Defense is highly overrated in 8th edition. Right now D2 weapons tear though them like butter, and no one ever targets them with small arms, because there are better targets for that, namely Tzzanagors. And there are lots of D2 to go around, including Plasma, which I know sucks for everyone, but I am losing 20 point models to it. Finally by your same argument with the Daemon Prince being unbalanced because it is spammed, how many lists at the GT had Rubrics in it? How many of those were good? I am betting not many.

Daemon Princes are not broken. If spamming something makes it broken, than every new tournament would require new balancing because as long as I have played this game tournaments have ALWAYS spammed the most points efficient units. Some of those are broken, some are not. If you actually use a Daemon Prince you will get exactly 180 points worth of use out of him. And the reason they are spammed is because in TS list they are one of the few units that is not overcosted. Being the best choice in a bad book does not make a unit broken.

All Is Dust is a great ability. No, it's not all-powerful, but it makes your Rubrics twice as good against small arms fire, basically forcing the opponent to fire big guns at them. Meaning they aren't firing at your actual big things.

I won't say TSons are in a GREAT place right now, but your suggestions are insanely OP, by and large.

Quite frankly the above is just my wish list to make me feel better, OP or not, but realistically, I just want more than 3 elite choices, and 2 fast attack choices. I would really be fine if they just added a few more units, and really dropped Rubrics a point or two and SoT get fixed however they fix terminators (which I think everyone agrees needs to be fixed). Everything else staying the same would be fine, not great, but fine. Also I really really want a Chaos version of the strorm raven. I really like that model and would love a chaos version of it.

 xeen wrote:
Quite frankly the above is just my wish list to make me feel better, OP or not, but realistically, I just want more than 3 elite choices, and 2 fast attack choices. I would really be fine if they just added a few more units, and really dropped Rubrics a point or two and SoT get fixed however they fix terminators (which I think everyone agrees needs to be fixed). Everything else staying the same would be fine, not great, but fine. Also I really really want a Chaos version of the strorm raven. I really like that model and would love a chaos version of it.

Okay. That's a lot more reasonable.

And, being a Nurgle Daemon player, I feel you on limited options.

So as a long term TSon players here is my opinion.

Even with the lack luster abilities or flavors, T sons have hands down the best HQs chaos has to offer. What I have found is Tsons are amazing if you run them in a supreme command, and that's really it.

Their troops are pretty crappy, aside from tzangors. Tzangors are killer in a big ass blob with a shaman, and skyfires are great if you cruise them around with ahriman and a shaman. Vortex beasts are alright but the only way to run them is you need to take 2 because if you take one it's dieing turn one, and if you take 2 you might as well take 3.

The biggest crime in the Tsons Dex is rubrics and SOT are massively over costed. They are just not worth running which is super sad because they are really cool. But they are just hot garbage. Warp flamers are horrible to take because there is no effective way to deliver them into combat. Your choices are to drop them in via deep strike which puts them out of range and gives them no ability to get into range with flamers. Or use rhinos which are aweful because you have to drop them at the start of the movement.

SOT suffer from redundicy. They fill the exact same role as rubics, at the same cost with only a few advantages that are outweighed by their disadvantages. The whole point of rubrics was to force your opponant to use high damage and rend weapon to take out what are basically marines. Meaning your opponant will need to waste d3 weapons on them. Which SOT try to double down on this effect but end up failing because you have terminators which already draw the focus of multi damage weapons because they have 2 wounds which then makes all is dust pointless on them.

I'd you wanna fix tsons as a Dex to make them feel more like the 15th legion they need to do the following

Reduce the cost of rubrics and or give their sorcerer full smite but loose the ability to cast other powers.
Reduce the cost of SOT and give them a +1 sv to really drive home the all is dust.

That won't fully fix them but at least it's a start.

With that said I was shown to a list that I altered a bit that makes a really fun Tsons supreme command detatchment a a daemon batalion detatchment that's super fluffy and super strong. So. T sons can be done, just not with rubrics

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So as a long term TSon players here is my opinion.

Even with the lack luster abilities or flavors, T sons have hands down the best HQs chaos has to offer. What I have found is Tsons are amazing if you run them in a supreme command, and that's really it.

Their troops are pretty crappy, aside from tzangors. Tzangors are killer in a big ass blob with a shaman, and skyfires are great if you cruise them around with ahriman and a shaman. Vortex beasts are alright but the only way to run them is you need to take 2 because if you take one it's dieing turn one, and if you take 2 you might as well take 3.

The biggest crime in the Tsons Dex is rubrics and SOT are massively over costed. They are just not worth running which is super sad because they are really cool. But they are just hot garbage. Warp flamers are horrible to take because there is no effective way to deliver them into combat. Your choices are to drop them in via deep strike which puts them out of range and gives them no ability to get into range with flamers. Or use rhinos which are aweful because you have to drop them at the start of the movement.

SOT suffer from redundicy. They fill the exact same role as rubics, at the same cost with only a few advantages that are outweighed by their disadvantages. The whole point of rubrics was to force your opponant to use high damage and rend weapon to take out what are basically marines. Meaning your opponant will need to waste d3 weapons on them. Which SOT try to double down on this effect but end up failing because you have terminators which already draw the focus of multi damage weapons because they have 2 wounds which then makes all is dust pointless on them.

I'd you wanna fix tsons as a Dex to make them feel more like the 15th legion they need to do the following

Reduce the cost of rubrics and or give their sorcerer full smite but loose the ability to cast other powers.
Reduce the cost of SOT and give them a +1 sv to really drive home the all is dust.

That won't fully fix them but at least it's a start.

With that said I was shown to a list that I altered a bit that makes a really fun Tsons supreme command detatchment a a daemon batalion detatchment that's super fluffy and super strong. So. T sons can be done, just not with rubrics

I agree. I think the TS daemon prince is the best unit in our book, and the best Chaos HQ, and probably one of the best HQs in the game period. Ahriman is also good because of the natural +1 and three casts, and I like the +1 you can get with the Term Sorcerer, who can teleport and he has access to the very good Inferno Combi-bolter (how come normal sorcerers can't get a familiar? Do fimilars refuse to work for anyone not in terminator armor, they have some kind of fetish?). But you are paying a premium for the terminator armor, like 25 point difference just comparing without the familiaror the bolter.

But the exalted have no place. If you want two casts, no bonus, use Sorcerers for cheaper. If you want re-roll ones to hit and better at fighting, DPs do it much better for not much more. That is why I suggested the re-roll 1s on casts for them, so at least they would have purpose.

The bigger issues as a codex is we don't have any cheap HQ to fill slots if needed. CSM has the Lieutenants, cheap lords (mine ally one with P ax . and Plas PI is only 86 points, and provides the re-roll bubble), the Warpsmith is under 80 with all equipment, and the dark apostle can be taken cheap as well. Our cheapest is i think 98 points for a sorcerer with staff and Inferno PI.

Everyone on Dakka seems to think that Tzzangors are the best troop ever. While they are not terrible, they are not really super either from my experience playing them. First they have to be deepstrked or they get shot to pieces walking. And now that you can't warptime after deepstrike, you are at the mercy of that 2D6 charge roll. I missed it the other day and my gors got lit up. And the worst part is because Rubrics and other units are more resilient to small arms, the Gors are the exact unit your opponent wants to be shooting with small arms, so if they miss the charge they are not even drawing fire that would be better placed elsewhere. I know a lot of units in this game rely on making the charge to be good, but I think that any unit, not just Gors, that rely on making a deepstrike charge to be good (and if they do, they sure are good with blades) really caps them at an average unit more so than anything else. This rant is not really to change Tzzangors, I actually think they are priced well for what they do, but just kind of a rebuttal to the "Tzzanagors are AWESOME" stuff I read on the forums. Also at 7 points per, they are a bit to expensive for screening, which is why we have cultists.

I also like the skyfires, with the Shaman they are pretty good. I have been overwhelmingly impressed with their shooting output, but again I think they are good, not great. The problem is the T4, W2 5++. I have noticed that they get killed pretty easily to any concentrated fire, which is a problem as their footprint is big enough that it is hard to hide them, even where there is a good amount of terrain on the table. Again, these guys are about right where they need to be, but personally I think if they had a natural 4++, they would be a very good unit.

The spear enlightened on the other hand are awful. Like any unit that has only close combat attacks, can't deepstrike, can't get a horn for the +1 charge like normal gors, 8th edition is rough on them. The other problem is even if they manage to get across the table at the enemy to charge, the T4 W2 5++ means that any lucky over-watch is really going to hurt them. Again they really need a 4++ in my opinion.

I have not played mutiliths, I want to get them though, with that re-roll charges being important.

Of course I agree with everything you said about Rubrics and SoT. they are in a sad state. I have had a little luck using the SoT as a small 5 man squad, with no upgrades to keep them really cheap, and use the natural deepstrike to make excellent use of the Inferno Combi-Bolters, which I will say are one of the best weapons in the game, especially with Vets of long war, so we have that.

But overall we really just need some more units in the book, especially anti-tank which is severely lacking in our codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just to respond to the comments I know are coming about the Tzzangors, here is my list of infantry that is better than TzGors considering the points that I played against or with:

Deepstrike attacking

First Bloodletters do the same thing (deepstrike CC bomb) only better for the SAME price point. Also bloodletters can have a HQ that can deepstike with them for the re-roll charges which is really necessary for this kind of unit, while TzGors need to hope you can get the Mutilith in range.

Genesteelers, especially the ones that get the 3+ save

Scions: yea these guys are awesome with plasma and do the deepstrike and damage the enemy better (although shooting not CC)

This is three just from the limited games I have played with/against the limited armies I have played against, and I have not played against blood angels who have really good points effective deepstike bombs, and from watching battle reports those Primaris Jump guys seem to do massive damage out of deep strike. I am sure I am missing units from Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau who all do the deepstrike attack better on paper but I don't know from actual experience.

For screening

Imperial Guardsmen: These guys are probably the best infantry unit in the game due to points efficiency and orders and have a similar role if you are screening.

All of the horror units are better with the same blue having the same 5++, and cheaper, and pinks having a better 4++, 1 dice smite, and being the same price.

Also if you are using TzGors as screens that is probably not the best way to use them anyway.

This is not to say that TzGors are useless, carppy what ever. I do like them, I do use them, TzGor bomb is part of my strategy for any TS list, but they are not some kind of OP super unit whose inclusion somehow fixes all of the other issues with TS Codex.