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Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Hey,

My roommate just got into the game and he's playing Dark Eldar. Our friend has a lot of armies, Dark Eldar being one of them, so we already have some minis to play with:

Archon
2x10 Warriors
10 Wyches
2 Raiders
2 Venoms
10 Scourges
3 Reavers

My buddy wants a majority of melee units and seems to prefer wyche cults and kabals. I'm looking for some general advice and pointers. He'll be getting his own minis, so don't restrict the advice to the above mentioned units.

Some questions:

How do people combine Succubi with Wyches? Is there a better option than taking a Raider? I imagine a lot of Venoms with Wyches inside would be useful. What about paying for 5 Wyches but only fielding 4? It's just 8 points.

What Wyche Cult do you all recommend? I, personally, think the +1S one is the best, especially since it caps your failed morale to a 1, though with 5-man units morale my not be an issue.

What kind of fire support would you use for a melee dark eldar force? I'm guessing, perhaps, raiders would be the way to go with 10-man units of wyches so you could get dark lances for can opening. I was thinking blasters, too, for the hekatrix.

Am I on the right track?

Thanks

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Kabals and Wych Cults combine very well. the answer to "what for fire support" is basically - take Kabals. Load them up on the kind of fire support wyches need, which is anti-tank, and de-emphasize what the wyches are good at, which is anti-horde. So I would take each Kab raider as either 2x5 kabs with blasters, or 1x5 kabs with blasters, 1x Archon with blaster. Warriors are fine, Ravagers are also fine, Scourges are also fine. Dark Eldar have lots of good fire support options for transport-popping.

The solution I've had best luck with on the "where do the succubi go" question is generally 'in a venom, with the move drugs.' I start her in there, and I start an archon with a cheap Lhamean to die just in case I get the vehicle blown up turn 1.

Turn 1, Raiders full of wyches typically move forward and the wyches pile out to attack turn 2. Move drug succubus goes almost as fast as the raiders (10"+Disembarking from her venom) and then can keep up with her crew when they disembark, or at least keep herself within 6" to give her buff out. She's safe even though shes out of the transport because she is a character. 9 wyches with 1 special and a succubus (who can also take a special) is also fine. Look at it this way, you're giving up 2 specials for the succubus to be in there, that's 6 attacks with specials. Well the succubus gets 5 attacks with her special and has WS2+ instead of WS3+...you're hardly giving anything up.

All 3 cults are good, I initially started thinking Id go Cursed Blade all day every day but Strife and RG have actually performed better for me overall. If you're getting mileage out of CB's strength buff you're using wyches wrong and trying to punch out a tank with them or something, if you're using wyches right, Strife is better. Lelith is also a wonderful little firecracker of a character. RG is top notch for smaller, more supporting role wych detachments, as it unlocks huge utility from Reavers, Hellions, and small squads aiming to tie stuff up.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Wouldn't +1 Strength be better than +1A even against infantry?

Against T3 and T4, which is abundant, you'd be better off with 2 S4 attacks than 3 S3 attacks, no?

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Kharneth wrote:
Wouldn't +1 Strength be better than +1A even against infantry?

Against T3 and T4, which is abundant, you'd be better off with 2 S4 attacks than 3 S3 attacks, no?


They're identical, but the ability to have wyches at S4 A3 and S3 A4 is better than the ability to have wyches as S4 A3 and S5 A2. Strife gets two optimal for damage combat drugs they can put on their wyches to CB's 2.

Strife also has a better relic user (Tryptch whip+Strife warlord trait), a better secondary HQ (lelith vs second succubus), and a better stratagem (no method of death vs whatever the crappy never-use strat CB has is called).

For those reasons I like Strife best for wych-heavy battalion detachments, and RG better for Reaver-heavy outriders. That would leave CB as my go to if I were doing...giant wych blobs, giant hellion blobs, or small MSU battalions. Which are rarely my competitive builds.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






So you put your Wyches in Raiders and the Succubus in a Venom?

Do you prefer Raiders or do you prefer large Wych units? Why not 5 wyches in lots of Venoms? Do you take Dark Lances on the Raiders?

You take Blasters on your Kabalites and move them real close?

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Kharneth wrote:
So you put your Wyches in Raiders and the Succubus in a Venom?

Do you prefer Raiders or do you prefer large Wych units? Why not 5 wyches in lots of Venoms? Do you take Dark Lances on the Raiders?

You take Blasters on your Kabalites and move them real close?


Usually I run everything in Raiders except for my HQs which go in venoms. I don't find wyches do enough killing to be worth investing in at 5-man. if you want them to kill things, you want around 30 of them total. Raiders give anti-tank fire as well and are cheaper per transport slot. Mostly when I see people spamming venoms its when they go all-kabalite to do their heavy lifting, because the venoms help them deal with their anti-horde deficit.

you don't have to be that close to use a blaster if you're a kabalite.18 or 24" (depending on kabal) inside a transport with a huge move and fly is pretty safe. You can also take ravagers and voidravens/razorwings if you don't like the kabalites, I just suggested kabs because it's what the player has.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






I see, good point about the Raider vs Venom. It would be cheaper with Raiders. I figured 5-man squads could still fight side by side. I assumed he'd need more than 5 wyches assaulting another unit.

Which Kabal obsession would you recommend to use with a large Strife cult? Originally I thought Serpent's Kiss or whatever that rerolls wounds of 1 with poison and melee, but perhaps there's something better if the Kabal are going to be primarily focused on transports.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Kharneth wrote:
I see, good point about the Raider vs Venom. It would be cheaper with Raiders. I figured 5-man squads could still fight side by side. I assumed he'd need more than 5 wyches assaulting another unit.

Which Kabal obsession would you recommend to use with a large Strife cult? Originally I thought Serpent's Kiss or whatever that rerolls wounds of 1 with poison and melee, but perhaps there's something better if the Kabal are going to be primarily focused on transports.


Well, theres no reason not to play what you like, and change around to taste, but I'd say either Black Heart or Obrose for a fire support/anti tank focused kabal. Agents of Vect is gold in every list, bar none, and Writ is always amazing. But obrose gets you 24" blasters and 21" rapid fire on splinter cannons on your venoms, which is super nice.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Well I'm not even playing... it's my roommate's army, I'm just trying to get information so I can help him. It's always best to learn about what units, weapons, combos, etc are good because he'll already know what he likes.

He used the 21" rapid fire venoms over the weekend and it's really nice, though it didn't help him much in the situation he was in.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





This is all my own person Opinon

I can tell you with reavers, they love the +1 T drug, they don't benifit from the +1 S drug or obession as they use their bladevanes for melee which is S4. Their also good to equip heatlances on and go character hunting with.

Hellions work quite well with the +1 S and morale obsession and given the +1 A drug or the other way around with the charge obsession and S drug, combined with the drug stratagem you'll be at S6 and their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.

Wyches in my opinon are great, but RNG is still a big part of it but yet they work well with either Obession and the +1 drug is a must for them, hydra gauntlets are great for the reroll for failed wounds,shardnet and impalers make them great for tarpiting units as it forces them to use a D3 instead of a D6.

Kabal's the poison tongue Obsession is great with splinter racks on raiders with a splinter cannon, for those rerolls and chance for extra hits. Dark lances and blasters are great and can never have enough, shredders are also good now too but because of their range it means you'll be within rapid fire or charge distance to get in range to use them.

and of course get some ravagers dark lances are great for anti tank and disses great for multi wound and primaris.
Scourges are good additions too, deep striking in extra blasters or dark lances or even haywire to do some mortal wounds to vehicle with invulnerable saves or quantum shielding.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 angelrei wrote:
their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.


Explain?

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.


Explain?


Well Units such as death guard who have disgustingly resilient rule, so if a Hellion gets past their Armour they have to roll two dice for each point of damage for their disgustingly resilient saves.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 angelrei wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.


Explain?


Well Units such as death guard who have disgustingly resilient rule, so if a Hellion gets past their Armour they have to roll two dice for each point of damage for their disgustingly resilient saves.


Okay, yeah I guess I never considered this an advantage.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.


Explain?


Well Units such as death guard who have disgustingly resilient rule, so if a Hellion gets past their Armour they have to roll two dice for each point of damage for their disgustingly resilient saves.


Okay, yeah I guess I never considered this an advantage.


Plus if you take a blob of them, give then the S obsession, S drug, the drug stratagem and combined with their weapon to give them a total of 7 S and with the dice on your side you could threat tanks with the amount of 2D you can inflict with all those 2D attacks that could get through.

*Edit*

Also forgot to say they also have alot of posion shot on them two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 15:39:39


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Depends how competitive you want to be.

I think in most metas - especially more casual, more MEQ focused metas, +S is better than +A. 3 S5 attacks is better than 5 S3 attacks against T4. By contrast in a tournament setting murdering T3 is often more important.

But then if you take 2 20 man units of Wyches (to enjoy +1 A, +1 S) that morale effects matters.

To my mind competitive DE doesn't use wych cults at all. Its 3 deep struck Ravagers & maybe 2-3 Razorwing Jetfighters trying to get 2 turns in a reroll 1s to hit/wound bubble. This focuses down anything which is a real threat.
Then you want to get a critical mass of kabalite warriors & grotesques. Its kind of boring but any points spent on other units are points that could have been spent on these units and its hard to see what you are getting that you couldn't have got. I think the thing holding back Grots being a main DE unit are the fact you need to convert them or buy that one resin model over and over again and both are a barrier to entry.

Moving on - at the danger of starting the thing that killed WHFB - I think you want around 100~ warriors in a 2k list. Maybe 80-90~ in 1750. Don't bother with transports, just take the guys to flood the board, grab objectives and kill rival hordes on a pretty efficient basis. I realise its anti-DE fluff, but I think venoms & raiders are inefficient for what you get. I don't think being tougher versus small arms is worth providing targets for heavier weapons. Load the warriors out with blasters or shredders as you think appropriate for the meta but it isn't strictly necessary. Sure they will die but they will achieve a lot on the way. Venoms by contrast will just die and to my mind achieve very little.

You might want to make the warriors something other than Black Heart but I am not sure whether the Archon tax necessary to make this work makes this inefficient. Then again its only an extra Archon and obsidian rose is very useful (and even poisoned tongue starts to add up with that much firepower). The thing is with this many warriors becoming immune to morale in turn 3 (via Black Heart) is very nice. A lot of opponents will prioritise your other stuff and then find that killing your warriors (in order to push you off objectives) is a real ask when morale isn't a thing.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 angelrei wrote:
their 2D is great for Units that have FNP type rules.


Explain?


Well Units such as death guard who have disgustingly resilient rule, so if a Hellion gets past their Armour they have to roll two dice for each point of damage for their disgustingly resilient saves.


Okay, yeah I guess I never considered this an advantage.


With 0 AP tho, they are better against things with Invuls and MW, is something has 3/4++ with 2+ wounds or 1 and FnP, then they are the best (Glass hammer) in our codex, but very few models are like that, a few daemons, a couple Nids, and 1 unit out of many codex's no one takes.

Hellions niche is massive attacks against Invul units.

   
 
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