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Is it possible to use the Dethwatch artifact THE BEACON ANGELIS to teleport a unit out of is deployment zone on the first turn, provided that it did not arrive from reserve? The wording is similar to the Ork “Da Jump” rule and then it is allowed.
The wording is: … Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, the bearer
can use the Beacon Angelis to teleport a friendly unit to his
position. When he does so, select a DEATHWATCH INFANTRY
or BIKER unit that is either on the battlefield, or that is in a
teleportarium. In either case, remove this unit and then set it up
wholly within 6" of the bearer and more than 9" from any enemy
model…

Nora wrote:
Is it possible to use the Dethwatch artifact THE BEACON ANGELIS to teleport a unit out of is deployment zone on the first turn, provided that it did not arrive from reserve? The wording is similar to the Ork “Da Jump” rule and then it is allowed.
The wording is: … Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, the bearer
can use the Beacon Angelis to teleport a friendly unit to his
position. When he does so, select a DEATHWATCH INFANTRY
or BIKER unit that is either on the battlefield, or that is in a
teleportarium. In either case, remove this unit and then set it up
wholly within 6" of the bearer and more than 9" from any enemy
model…

If you're using the Beta Rule, no, you cannot.

If you're not using the Beta Rule, then yes, you can.

There is already a discussion about it in the YMDC forum.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756256.page

Nora wrote:
Is it possible to use the Dethwatch artifact THE BEACON ANGELIS to teleport a unit out of is deployment zone on the first turn, provided that it did not arrive from reserve? The wording is similar to the Ork “Da Jump” rule and then it is allowed.
The wording is: … Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, the bearer
can use the Beacon Angelis to teleport a friendly unit to his
position. When he does so, select a DEATHWATCH INFANTRY
or BIKER unit that is either on the battlefield, or that is in a
teleportarium. In either case, remove this unit and then set it up
wholly within 6" of the bearer and more than 9" from any enemy
model…

Yes you can, unless you misunderstood the Tactical Reserves rule to apply to any unit and not to Tactical Reserves.

And just in case you still fall victim to that misinterpretation, Games Workshop helpfully though unnecessarily clarified on their Facebook page, with a hilariously condescending tone that rightfully pointed out the sillyness of anyone who could so badly twist the Tactical Reserves rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Nora wrote:
Is it possible to use the Dethwatch artifact THE BEACON ANGELIS to teleport a unit out of is deployment zone on the first turn, provided that it did not arrive from reserve? The wording is similar to the Ork “Da Jump” rule and then it is allowed.
The wording is: … Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, the bearer
can use the Beacon Angelis to teleport a friendly unit to his
position. When he does so, select a DEATHWATCH INFANTRY
or BIKER unit that is either on the battlefield, or that is in a
teleportarium. In either case, remove this unit and then set it up
wholly within 6" of the bearer and more than 9" from any enemy
model…

If you're using the Beta Rule, no, you cannot.

If you're not using the Beta Rule, then yes, you can.

There is already a discussion about it in the YMDC forum.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756256.page

The internet: where fast and loud beats accurate and evidence-based every time.

RAW: The errata and FAQ do not allow units, arriving from reinforcements (which "Da Jump" is), to deploy outside the deployment zone - period.
RAI: You ARE allowed to deploy outside the deployment zone T1, as long as you were previously on the board already.

It is not reasonable to expect every player to have access to knowledge of every Facebook post ever made by GW. The facebook GW team also clearly states that they cannot provide official answers - except "this one time because we asked the rules team and it's actually official"; "here's a nice pretty picture".

RAW: Facebook GW cannot provide official answers.
RAI: Facebook GW CAN provide official answers, because "they talked to the rules team".

fe40k wrote:
RAW: The errata and FAQ do not allow units, arriving from reinforcements (which "Da Jump" is), to deploy outside the deployment zone - period.
RAI: You ARE allowed to deploy outside the deployment zone T1, as long as you were previously on the board already.

It is not reasonable to expect every player to have access to knowledge of every Facebook post ever made by GW. The facebook GW team also clearly states that they cannot provide official answers - except "this one time because we asked the rules team and it's actually official"; "here's a nice pretty picture".

RAW: Facebook GW cannot provide official answers.
RAI: Facebook GW CAN provide official answers, because "they talked to the rules team".

It doesn't, actually. Reinforcements is a separate rule, found in the sidebar of page 177, which applies basic rules to all units that are removed from the battlefield and set up for any reason during any phase - deployment, psychic phase, movement phase...any time.

Tactical Reserves (the new rule, created with the FAQ) only applies to units that are deployed as reinforcements and not deployed on the battlefield at the beginning of the game. it does not say anywhere that it applies to every unit currently off the battlefield as Reinforcements.

Just like how the Disembark rule (letting you move as normal after setting up on the battlefield) applies only to units that were off the battlefield as Reinforcements because they were Embarked on a transport. or how the Charge subset of movement allows you to move within 1" of enemy units, but you are still required to follow all other restrictions that apply to movement.

All units in Tactical Reserves are in Reinforcements. All Reinforcements are not in Tactical Reserves.

All units Charging are Moving. All units that are Moving are not Charging.

All Penguins are birds. All Birds are not Penguins.

Get it?

But the limit rule text makes no mention of reserves. Only entering battlefield which da jump etc most definitely do. Original rule was unclear and 50-50 which way to go. Gw clarified but stupidly in fb so many players who use that rule are unaware there was clarification

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
RAW: The errata and FAQ do not allow units, arriving from reinforcements (which "Da Jump" is), to deploy outside the deployment zone - period.
RAI: You ARE allowed to deploy outside the deployment zone T1, as long as you were previously on the board already.

It is not reasonable to expect every player to have access to knowledge of every Facebook post ever made by GW. The facebook GW team also clearly states that they cannot provide official answers - except "this one time because we asked the rules team and it's actually official"; "here's a nice pretty picture".

RAW: Facebook GW cannot provide official answers.
RAI: Facebook GW CAN provide official answers, because "they talked to the rules team".

It doesn't, actually. Reinforcements is a separate rule, found in the sidebar of page 177, which applies basic rules to all units that are removed from the battlefield and set up for any reason during any phase - deployment, psychic phase, movement phase...any time.

Tactical Reserves (the new rule, created with the FAQ) only applies to units that are deployed as reinforcements and not deployed on the battlefield at the beginning of the game. it does not say anywhere that it applies to every unit currently off the battlefield as Reinforcements.

Just like how the Disembark rule (letting you move as normal after setting up on the battlefield) applies only to units that were off the battlefield as Reinforcements because they were Embarked on a transport. or how the Charge subset of movement allows you to move within 1" of enemy units, but you are still required to follow all other restrictions that apply to movement.

All units in Tactical Reserves are in Reinforcements. All Reinforcements are not in Tactical Reserves.

All units Charging are Moving. All units that are Moving are not Charging.

All Penguins are birds. All Birds are not Penguins.

Get it?

FAQ: Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).

Ork "Da Jump": ...Remove this unit from the battlefield, then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from enemy models. ...

Get it?

Edit: I was going to make a point how the word "arrives" is only referenced in the Reinforcements sidebar, but then I re-read the whole thing. It's quite clear that "Da Jump" counts as Reinforcements, as they leave the battlefield, then are "set-up", during the Psychic Phase.

Reinforcements sidebar: Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. ...

tneva82 wrote:
But the limit rule text makes no mention of reserves. Only entering battlefield which da jump etc most definitely do. Original rule was unclear and 50-50 which way to go. Gw clarified but stupidly in fb so many players who use that rule are unaware there was clarification

One side of the "50-50" requires you to believe the following:

-The first sentence of the Tactical Reserves rule box ("Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements") is NOT outlining exactly the situations where the rules written below apply, which is how every rule section in the base rules is set up.

E.G.: Minimum Move: Some models that can Fly have a move characteristic consisting of two values.
Transports: Some models are noted as being a Transport in their datasheet.
Morale: in the Morale phase, starting with the player whose turn it is, players must take Morale tests for units from their army who have had models slain during the turn.

-All units Embarking and Disembarking from Transports (which uses the exact same "remove from the battlefield" and "set up on the battlefield" wording that people are claiming causes Da Jump and similar abilities to fall into Tactical Reserves) must obey the same restrictions. Any unit Embarked on a transport after turn 3 is destroyed. You are not allowed to Disembark from a transport outside your deployment zone turn 1.

If you started your interpretation of every rule in 40k by disregarding the first sentence which outlines the situations where the rules apply, you'd probably end up mighty confused.

for fun, try playing a game where you ignore the first sentence of the Fight phase section: "Any unit that has charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit may be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
RAW: The errata and FAQ do not allow units, arriving from reinforcements (which "Da Jump" is), to deploy outside the deployment zone - period.
RAI: You ARE allowed to deploy outside the deployment zone T1, as long as you were previously on the board already.

It is not reasonable to expect every player to have access to knowledge of every Facebook post ever made by GW. The facebook GW team also clearly states that they cannot provide official answers - except "this one time because we asked the rules team and it's actually official"; "here's a nice pretty picture".

RAW: Facebook GW cannot provide official answers.
RAI: Facebook GW CAN provide official answers, because "they talked to the rules team".

It doesn't, actually. Reinforcements is a separate rule, found in the sidebar of page 177, which applies basic rules to all units that are removed from the battlefield and set up for any reason during any phase - deployment, psychic phase, movement phase...any time.

Tactical Reserves (the new rule, created with the FAQ) only applies to units that are deployed as reinforcements and not deployed on the battlefield at the beginning of the game. it does not say anywhere that it applies to every unit currently off the battlefield as Reinforcements.

Just like how the Disembark rule (letting you move as normal after setting up on the battlefield) applies only to units that were off the battlefield as Reinforcements because they were Embarked on a transport. or how the Charge subset of movement allows you to move within 1" of enemy units, but you are still required to follow all other restrictions that apply to movement.

All units in Tactical Reserves are in Reinforcements. All Reinforcements are not in Tactical Reserves.

All units Charging are Moving. All units that are Moving are not Charging.

All Penguins are birds. All Birds are not Penguins.

Get it?

FAQ: Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).

Ork "Da Jump": ...Remove this unit from the battlefield, then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from enemy models. ...

Get it?

Edit: I was going to make a point how the word "arrives" is only referenced in the Reinforcements sidebar, but then I re-read the whole thing. It's quite clear that "Da Jump" counts as Reinforcements, as they leave the battlefield, then are "set-up", during the Psychic Phase.

Reinforcements sidebar: Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. ...

Disembark: "when a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield..."

Embark: "remove the unit from the battlefield and set it off to one side - it is now embarked inside the transport."

We have a situation here where either

A) you've taken a sentence that starts with the word "Furthermore" out of context, and MAYBE, just MAYBE you should read the statements that exist before the word Furthermore to figure out when the rules in the sentence apply

or B) the identical wording within the Transports rules box on page 183 also fall under the beta Tactical Reserves rule.

Yes, it has been discussed that the beta Tactical Reserves applies to transports, as currently written.

Worse, since the models inside were never "on the field already" to begin with, they have no legal standing via the FB post to disembark, turn 1.

We can agree GW can't write rules well, but we can also agree that the wording is crystal clear:

If you're being set-up on the battlefield during the first turn, it can only be inside your own deployment zone [to include disembarking]. - If you subscribe to the GW FB being able to post rules errata [which is it's own debate], then models CAN "set-up" outside the deployment zone; if they were on the battlefield at the start of the first turn to begin with [which again, models inside transports never were].

EDIT: Also, should you move your transport outside your deployment zone on your first turn (P1T1), then have it destroyed during the opponents first round (P2T1), the restriction to setting up models outside the deployment zone is still in effect - which means the entire contents would be destroyed immediately, since they are unable to be set-up on the field (outside the deployment zone during T1).

fe40k wrote:
Yes, it has been discussed that the beta Tactical Reserves applies to transports, as currently written.

Worse, since the models inside were never "on the field already" to begin with, they have no legal standing via the FB post to disembark, turn 1.

We can agree GW can't write rules well, but we can also agree that the wording is crystal clear:

If you're being set-up on the battlefield during the first turn, it can only be inside your own deployment zone [to include disembarking]. - If you subscribe to the GW FB being able to post rules errata [which is it's own debate], then models CAN "set-up" outside the deployment zone; if they were on the battlefield at the start of the first turn to begin with [which again, models inside transports never were].

EDIT: Also, should you move your transport outside your deployment zone on your first turn (P1T1), then have it destroyed during the opponents first round (P2T1), the restriction to setting up models outside the deployment zone is still in effect - which means the entire contents would be destroyed immediately, since they are unable to be set-up on the field (outside the deployment zone during T1).

So, you're dead set on completely ignoring the first sentence of the Tactical Reserves rule, which very obviously calls out two requirements for a rule to apply:

1) Unit has an ability that causes it to not be set up on the battlefield DURING DEPLOYMENT

2) Ability causes unit to arrive later as REINFORCEMENTS

You are choosing only to apply restriction 2, which obviously leads to stupid results.

And instead of understanding "oh, we need to apply BOTH restrictions here because if we only apply one, stupid things happen" you've just said "ah ha yes, stupid GW, clearly writing such an incompetent rule."

I honestly can't tell if the few people arguing for this idiocy are just incapable of reading, and try to do stuff like declare charges with units within 1" of an enemy, or embark their entire armies on board one transport because a single paragraph within the Transport box would indicate that they can do so, or if there's a much simpler, "rules argument to gain competitive advantage" explanation. But if it is the latter, I just can't figure out what it is.

It's still wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's still wrong.

This beta rule really highlights the worst of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Yes, it has been discussed that the beta Tactical Reserves applies to transports, as currently written.

Worse, since the models inside were never "on the field already" to begin with, they have no legal standing via the FB post to disembark, turn 1.

We can agree GW can't write rules well, but we can also agree that the wording is crystal clear:

If you're being set-up on the battlefield during the first turn, it can only be inside your own deployment zone [to include disembarking]. - If you subscribe to the GW FB being able to post rules errata [which is it's own debate], then models CAN "set-up" outside the deployment zone; if they were on the battlefield at the start of the first turn to begin with [which again, models inside transports never were].

EDIT: Also, should you move your transport outside your deployment zone on your first turn (P1T1), then have it destroyed during the opponents first round (P2T1), the restriction to setting up models outside the deployment zone is still in effect - which means the entire contents would be destroyed immediately, since they are unable to be set-up on the field (outside the deployment zone during T1).

So, you're dead set on completely ignoring the first sentence of the Tactical Reserves rule, which very obviously calls out two requirements for a rule to apply:

1) Unit has an ability that causes it to not be set up on the battlefield DURING DEPLOYMENT

2) Ability causes unit to arrive later as REINFORCEMENTS

You are choosing only to apply restriction 2, which obviously leads to stupid results.

And instead of understanding "oh, we need to apply BOTH restrictions here because if we only apply one, stupid things happen" you've just said "ah ha yes, stupid GW, clearly writing such an incompetent rule."

I honestly can't tell if the few people arguing for this idiocy are just incapable of reading, and try to do stuff like declare charges with units within 1" of an enemy, or embark their entire armies on board one transport because a single paragraph within the Transport box would indicate that they can do so, or if there's a much simpler, "rules argument to gain competitive advantage" explanation. But if it is the latter, I just can't figure out what it is.

No... it's basically they just never read the rules themselves and rely on dakkadakka and websites/youtube videos to explain it to them... i read the rule and clearly understood it and it's intentions from day 1... it's why I genuinely felt insane when an entire thread ganged up on me. People only denie the fb post (even though it genuinely says in the post that this is 100% official from the actual rule team for ones) because they can't admit how big of a jerk they were to people who actually got it right (this is dakkadakka... a palce where everyone is both correct and wrong all the time).

Just gonna post this again to make it clear for some people. If your unit is already on the battlefield then yes you can Beacon them outside your deployment zone first turn.

I kinda feel like one of those people like "witches arn't real! As you can see what she was doing is basic chem- wait... why are you putting those logs around my feet, is that a flame? Have you guys got your fingers in your ears chanting "lalalla"?"

 osmesis wrote:
Just gonna post this again to make it clear for some people. If your unit is already on the battlefield then yes you can Beacon them outside your deployment zone first turn.

Wow that is quite the photoshop job there!

Nora wrote:
Is it possible to use the Dethwatch artifact THE BEACON ANGELIS to teleport a unit out of is deployment zone on the first turn, provided that it did not arrive from reserve? The wording is similar to the Ork “Da Jump” rule and then it is allowed.
The wording is: … Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, the bearer
can use the Beacon Angelis to teleport a friendly unit to his
position. When he does so, select a DEATHWATCH INFANTRY
or BIKER unit that is either on the battlefield, or that is in a
teleportarium. In either case, remove this unit and then set it up
wholly within 6" of the bearer and more than 9" from any enemy
model…

Yes you can.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 osmesis wrote:
Just gonna post this again to make it clear for some people. If your unit is already on the battlefield then yes you can Beacon them outside your deployment zone first turn.

Wow that is quite the photoshop job there!

This image that I can see is on Facebook so I can’t see it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This image that I can see is on Facebook so I can’t see it.

Okay, but I can not see it on facebook, so it could be photoshopped.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This image that I can see is on Facebook so I can’t see it.

Okay, but I can not see it on facebook, so it could be photoshopped.