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Now that the codex is out and a few people have had their games in, how do they fair? even with people looking at it on paper how do you think they are in the world of codexes? I think they are somewhere mid tier near death guard levels. just curious on everybody's thoughts.

I've been finding the rifle squads to be top-notch, but the Codex generally lacking in cost-effective anti-vehicle tech. Massed Primaris infantry can be quite durable, especially when paired with the relic storm shield or a Deredeo for Invulnerable coverage, and special-issue ammo means that unlike non-Deathwatch Intercessors you will actually kill things. Storm bolters gaining SIA means non-Primaris Marines retain an effective role that Primaris can't really compete with.

I don't like the lack of support/buffs/upgrades for the non-SIA guns; the shotgun is still mediocre and equivalent to or outperformed by a boltgun against the vast majority of targets, the frag cannon remains horrendously expensive and as everything else is getting better around it there's very little reason to take it, and the Infernus heavy bolter got a nerf (no longer Assault on the HB profile) for some reason unknown to me.

The Stratagems open up interesting tricks outside my normal expectation of the game; I was grumpy about the anti-Xeno Stratagems as "f*** this one Codex" mechanics but after having played a few games I'm finding they're less decisive than I was worried they would be.

I think the big winners of the Codex are Reivers and Intercessors; both of them are quite durable and Reivers in particular are great at going places, but suffered from an inability to do much damage once they got there; SIA and the ability to park heavier weapons behind Intercessor bodies solve that problem handily.

I'd have to play more games before I pass judgement on their place in the power rankings, but overall I think the Codex feels fair, even if I would have preferred more conversion options for the Primaris and more love for the non-Primaris special weapons.

I've not been able to take my guys out for a spin (primaris pure force just using DW rules) yet, but from the numerous battle reports I have watched I have seen the DW lose every single game except one where they got a draw. I think they are a marine heavy codex which in this codex = bad. The strong 'marine' lists have largely been heavy gimmick lists like spamming fliers or riding the coat tails of Guiliman.

As a standalone force I don't think they will be viable in a competitive sense probably falling in the lower mid tier. However as allies I see some potential. Their bikes are very solid first off. They can deepstrike in a leviathian dreadnought then boost it with +1 to wound stratagems (making it effective against vehicles and infantry to the extreme) as well as make it immune to alpha strike. Furthermore you could do some other deep striking tactics like deep striking in beefy squads of primaris or normal kill teams to lay down serious damage.

A list I want to run here soon features guard as the primary force with about 800 points put in to a watch captain with jetpack carrying the beacon angelis to DS in along two full primaris killteams via the deepstrike stratagem. I also have a smaller killteam of interecessors to teleport in via the beacon as well to throw a bit more beef in there.

So I can see DW focusing as a high damage, shooting focused ally to imperium armies in a similar nature to a deep striking meele blood angels ally.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Infernus heavy bolter got a nerf (no longer Assault on the HB profile) for some reason unknown to me.

FYI, the IHB lost Assault in the Index, so its not a new nerf.

 LunarSol wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Infernus heavy bolter got a nerf (no longer Assault on the HB profile) for some reason unknown to me.

FYI, the IHB lost Assault in the Index, so its not a new nerf.

It's not a welcome one though. There isn't a lot of solid reasoning behind it.

I'm pretty happy with what I've been able to make so far. They're definitely more of an ally, but they can make up the majority of your army. I just think they at the very least need the 180 points of Guard CP to fuel themselves and need to get some vehicle cracking from out of Codex, even if just in the form of Forge World Dreadnoughts.

I don't think there's anything as aggressively costed as Custodes Bikes. They don't have the durability or wounds on the table to win on raw stats. It's a pretty fair codex that absolutely demands not losing too much before attacking and making the most of every attack by choosing the right ammo and rerolls at every opportunity.

The one model I really want buffs for is the Blackstar. It really, really needs something to mitigate being BS4+ most of the time and while very durable it needs to be a little harder to kill if its going to be such a major delivery system. Overall though, it exceeded my expectations, but likely isn't cheesy enough to function as something similar to Plasma Scions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Infernus heavy bolter got a nerf (no longer Assault on the HB profile) for some reason unknown to me.

FYI, the IHB lost Assault in the Index, so its not a new nerf.

It's not a welcome one though. There isn't a lot of solid reasoning behind it.

No argument there. My Infernus has been sitting on the shelf since 8th edition launched, not that he saw a lot of play before, but he's definitely dustier than he used to be.

They definitely seem more completive than the other Marine books. Their primaris Marines are considerably better for almost no extra cost, and although still fragile and expensive, their normal marines pack quite a punch, and being able to pay CP to deepstrike instead of paying points for transports is really good as well. The ability to deepstrike FW dreads is also very good.

jcd386 wrote:
They definitely seem more completive than the other Marine books. Their primaris Marines are considerably better for almost no extra cost, and although still fragile and expensive, their normal marines pack quite a punch, and being able to pay CP to deepstrike instead of paying points for transports is really good as well. The ability to deepstrike FW dreads is also very good.

I have to disagree with the almost no extra cost part. Hellblasters went up 1 point because of that wretched bolt pistol tax so they are now 1pt less efficient. Intercessors went up 2ppm which is fair for the boost they gained, but thats 10points extra per squad which really adds up. The biggest offender though is the reiver who went up 5ppm which is insane considering their assault 2 gun is costed the same as the rapid fire 2 storm bolter. Yes their firepower is much better now, but it did come at a cost. Poor Reivers.. You were almost good.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I've not been able to take my guys out for a spin (primaris pure force just using DW rules) yet, but from the numerous battle reports I have watched I have seen the DW lose every single game except one where they got a draw. I think they are a marine heavy codex which in this codex = bad. The strong 'marine' lists have largely been heavy gimmick lists like spamming fliers or riding the coat tails of Guiliman.

As a standalone force I don't think they will be viable in a competitive sense probably falling in the lower mid tier. However as allies I see some potential. Their bikes are very solid first off. They can deepstrike in a leviathian dreadnought then boost it with +1 to wound stratagems (making it effective against vehicles and infantry to the extreme) as well as make it immune to alpha strike. Furthermore you could do some other deep striking tactics like deep striking in beefy squads of primaris or normal kill teams to lay down serious damage.

A list I want to run here soon features guard as the primary force with about 800 points put in to a watch captain with jetpack carrying the beacon angelis to DS in along two full primaris killteams via the deepstrike stratagem. I also have a smaller killteam of interecessors to teleport in via the beacon as well to throw a bit more beef in there.

So I can see DW focusing as a high damage, shooting focused ally to imperium armies in a similar nature to a deep striking meele blood angels ally.

I've seen the same outcome in nearly every battle report, but I wouldn't make any decisive statements - the players in them don't know DW. They very often forget about key rules, have really wonky lists, miss perfect timing on strats because they ignored them, forget often about SIA entirely, and probably the worst mistake was forgetting they had a dread in the teleportarium. Lots of folks look to have fun playing them, but the vast majority of the batreps I'm seeing are just people rushing to get content without actually grasping the codex.

Nanavati had a live stream where he packed in some DW into his soup - I missed it, but I wonder what he thought of their performance.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They definitely seem more completive than the other Marine books. Their primaris Marines are considerably better for almost no extra cost, and although still fragile and expensive, their normal marines pack quite a punch, and being able to pay CP to deepstrike instead of paying points for transports is really good as well. The ability to deepstrike FW dreads is also very good.

I have to disagree with the almost no extra cost part. Hellblasters went up 1 point because of that wretched bolt pistol tax so they are now 1pt less efficient. Intercessors went up 2ppm which is fair for the boost they gained, but thats 10points extra per squad which really adds up. The biggest offender though is the reiver who went up 5ppm which is insane considering their assault 2 gun is costed the same as the rapid fire 2 storm bolter. Yes their firepower is much better now, but it did come at a cost. Poor Reivers.. You were almost good.

I guess I was mainly talking about the intercessors. 2 points is great for them. I wouldn't take hellblasters or reivers at all, I don't think, but the ability to use intercessors as meat shields for hellblasters in a mixed unit is probably worth their one point increase. Otherwise it's better to take them in a ravenguard detachment.

Agreed on reivers being a hidden star of the Codex. Turn 2 limit isn't so bad on a 115pt unit, and when they drop in they can put out some pretty good damage. Reivers only had one acceptable strategy before really - drop into cover and harass, and that strategy got a straight upgrade. Their guns with the native wound reroll are pretty decent, and in CC their pistols drop bodies. Plus black armour is spot on for these guys

 grouchoben wrote:
Agreed on reivers being a hidden star of the Codex. Turn 2 limit isn't so bad on a 115pt unit, and when they drop in they can put out some pretty good damage. Reivers only had one acceptable strategy before really - drop into cover and harass, and that strategy got a straight upgrade. Their guns with the native wound reroll are pretty decent, and in CC their pistols drop bodies. Plus black armour is spot on for these guys

I feel like the pistols are the only way to go right now considering how much more expensive the carbine became (inexplicably).

The carbine price jump is pretty mind boggling. Am I missing something or is it the exact same statline as the Auto Bolt Rifle?

 LunarSol wrote:
The carbine price jump is pretty mind boggling. Am I missing something or is it the exact same statline as the Auto Bolt Rifle?

You are absolutely correct. It went from being free to being 4 points. It costs the same as storm bolter now which 99% of the time is going to be a strictly superior number. I want to believe it was a mistake because it makes no sense why it went up 4 points out of nowhere. For 115 points (Not including the 10 points for their two deepstrike options) I think they're pretty bad still. I was so excited to put one in each kill team for their buffs, but the needless point hike on their gun is just... odd. For now they are going to just be intercessor stand ins if I run out of actual intercessors somehow. If you want to be sad compare the 23 point reiver to a 27 point bike.

Reivers get free deepstrike, which is nice. But more importantly they get grapnel shenanigans. They ignore terrain whenever they move, allowing very short charge ranges. This allows them to make some charges very easily against firebase units. And now SIA gives them very nice bite. A bargain for 125pts, imo.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The carbine price jump is pretty mind boggling. Am I missing something or is it the exact same statline as the Auto Bolt Rifle?

You are absolutely correct. It went from being free to being 4 points. It costs the same as storm bolter now which 99% of the time is going to be a strictly superior number. I want to believe it was a mistake because it makes no sense why it went up 4 points out of nowhere. For 115 points (Not including the 10 points for their two deepstrike options) I think they're pretty bad still. I was so excited to put one in each kill team for their buffs, but the needless point hike on their gun is just... odd. For now they are going to just be intercessor stand ins if I run out of actual intercessors somehow. If you want to be sad compare the 23 point reiver to a 27 point bike.

The Reivers, to me, got some of the most benefits out of SIA; they've always been good at getting places but crap at killing anything once they got there, and now that they can come in and lay down AP-2 shooting at 16" range they may actually get to show up and snipe backfield enemies rather than showing up, hanging around for a turn doing not much, and then dying.

I do agree that the 25pt Reiver to a 29pt bike (twin boltguns are 4pts in the Deathwatch book, and I tend to consider Reivers in terms of their use in Reiver squads with grapnels/grav-chutes rather than in Kill-Teams because they don't do much for a Kill-Team) looks like the result of someone comparing two things to different single benchmarks and misjudging where they should live in relation to each other ("a bike is 16pts worse than an Inceptor!" "a Reiver is 5pts better than an Intercessor!" "but is a Reiver really only 4pts worse than a bike?" "What?"), but even so I'm enjoying the Reivers as backfield distractions that are actually distracting because they can kill things now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Reivers get free deepstrike, which is nice. But more importantly they get grapnel shenanigans. They ignore terrain whenever they move, allowing very short charge ranges. This allows them to make some charges very easily against firebase units. And now SIA gives them very nice bite. A bargain for 125pts, imo.

(2pt deepstrike.)

(I know a Reiver looks like a 25pt model with free deepstrike, but you have the option to take them for 23pts/model with no deepstrike. You know, if you really want to.)

They don't work well as a standalone force, that's to be expected. They have no realistic anti-tank outside of Razorbacks. Team them up with some Artillery, Russes or Predators and they really shine.

I love being able to deep strike a unit of Intercessors with Bolt Rifles (And aggressor friends) and being able to rapid fire Vengeance rounds.

jcd386 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They definitely seem more completive than the other Marine books. Their primaris Marines are considerably better for almost no extra cost, and although still fragile and expensive, their normal marines pack quite a punch, and being able to pay CP to deepstrike instead of paying points for transports is really good as well. The ability to deepstrike FW dreads is also very good.

I have to disagree with the almost no extra cost part. Hellblasters went up 1 point because of that wretched bolt pistol tax so they are now 1pt less efficient. Intercessors went up 2ppm which is fair for the boost they gained, but thats 10points extra per squad which really adds up. The biggest offender though is the reiver who went up 5ppm which is insane considering their assault 2 gun is costed the same as the rapid fire 2 storm bolter. Yes their firepower is much better now, but it did come at a cost. Poor Reivers.. You were almost good.

I guess I was mainly talking about the intercessors. 2 points is great for them. I wouldn't take hellblasters or reivers at all, I don't think, but the ability to use intercessors as meat shields for hellblasters in a mixed unit is probably worth their one point increase. Otherwise it's better to take them in a ravenguard detachment.

That's fair enough. Between Mission Tactics and Special Issue Ammunition, the hail of shots intercessors can put out becomes quite scary, especially with Auto Bolt Rifles. But I agree heavy antitank remains a key weakness of primaris - even for the boys in black.

Well that brings up the next important question: how much AT is appropriate before you can just drown everything else in Special Ammunition?

Four games post-codex so far, here are my takeaways.

Frag Cannons are awesome, but you need to support them with a variety of bullet sponges and they pretty much require a Corvus to get full value out of them.

Mixed Primaris KT's are awesome. 20 T5 wounds in cover takes a while to dig out, in the meantime, the aggressors are double firing for 60 + 10D6 str 4 shots just about every turn after the turn 1 teleport or your opponent has to create a 18" bubble no-go zone around them. Toss the +1 to wound strat on and you can drop a Predator with Str 4 guns.

Teleporting Leviathan Dreads are awesome. Not losing your biggest, baddest gun because you lost the roll-off to go first is golden. Storm Cannons with +1 to wound strat are lovely. Eagerly awaiting my grav bombards in the mail to take those for a spin.

Guard CP battery is IMO mandatory outside of fun games, possibly even two of them. DW eat CP faster than any Imperium sub-faction I've played.

I try to keep as much as possible off the table/out of range or LOS turn one. So far, it's worked great for me against other flavors of marines and Dark Eldar, but I haven't fought any Guard arty parks yet or heavy CC oriented forces.

I would rate them as solid mid-upper mid tier with a CP battery. Low-mid tier without. You can definitely take them mono faction to non-competitive games and have a good time, whereas during index it was basically a game of 'how many turns can I go before I get tabled?'

I'm personally just waiting for some point drops here and there (Shotguns mostly, as they should be only a point more than the Bolter I'd say is my main complaint, and Reivers being a tad too expensive for the Carbine) and we are golden.