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I ask only out of curiousity, but is playing something like MSUs of cheap troops to block against melee armies considered a cheese tactic? I don't mean high meta, I just mean unfair, or against fun. Usually as a World Eaters player I will play cultists and rush them up as distractions and protection for my slower characters like Dark Apostles. But in my last game I played the exact same cultists, but this time I used them as a meat shield for my T-sons. Suddenly they want to pin me to a cross for bringing MSUs of cheap troops. I know I do my rants here and there, but I CANNOT be the only person who brings bubblewrap to casual games, especially when I know im a gunline against an assault.

Nah. Why would you push all your characters and expensive units out in front of your army? Makes no sense.

There's being sporting then there's being stupid.

I don't think so. Its even quiet fluffy imo in most books/cover art cheap disposable stuff is receiving a charge from a horde of bad guys and all the cool killy stuff is behind it firing.

Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

I'll have you know they find my World Eater Berzerkers to be VERY cheesy when put inside a rhino, so I don't know what is reality anymore outside of my playgroup. I rarely get a chance to play with people other than them.

Basic, intelligent tactics are never cheesy. Frankly, that's exactly what cheap screening Infantry are for. Rules, fluff, and cold cruel reality.

Like CSM would NOT force cultists into a meat shield role.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

I'll have you know they find my World Eater Berzerkers to be VERY cheesy when put inside a rhino, so I don't know what is reality anymore outside of my playgroup. I rarely get a chance to play with people other than them.

Using a transport to transport your models is cheesy? I'm not trying to be offensive to you at all, but what neckbeards do you play with? I literally wouldnt be able to play with anyone that say transports are cheesy.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

I'll have you know they find my World Eater Berzerkers to be VERY cheesy when put inside a rhino, so I don't know what is reality anymore outside of my playgroup. I rarely get a chance to play with people other than them.

Using a transport to transport your models is cheesy? I'm not trying to be offensive to you at all, but what neckbeards do you play with? I literally wouldnt be able to play with anyone that say transports are cheesy.

Hey now, hey now. Only ONE of them has a neckbeard.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

I'll have you know they find my World Eater Berzerkers to be VERY cheesy when put inside a rhino, so I don't know what is reality anymore outside of my playgroup. I rarely get a chance to play with people other than them.

Using a transport to transport your models is cheesy? I'm not trying to be offensive to you at all, but what neckbeards do you play with? I literally wouldnt be able to play with anyone that say transports are cheesy.

Hey now, hey now. Only ONE of them has a neckbeard.

I'm all up for a more friendly game, NP at all about that, but transports and bubble wrapping cheesy? Those are basic parts of the game and are almost required to play.

Nope, it's a basic tactic.

Unless people expect you to play with random units and just charge everything forward hapazardly, I am not sure what they expect.

It sounds like your opponents are the type to consider anything they lose to to be cheesy.

Thanks everyone for the feedback From my understanding, im doing a fairly common and reasonable tactic, both in assault and in defense.

I would not consider it cheese, since it's just a way to play the game.
That said, I find it lamentable that shielding your tanks with infantry is a good tactic, when the whole purpose of tanks is to shield infantry, to be the "spearhead".

Dandelion wrote:
I would not consider it cheese, since it's just a way to play the game.
That said, I find it lamentable that shielding your tanks with infantry is a good tactic, when the whole purpose of tanks is to shield infantry, to be the "spearhead".

Some tanks, yes. A Vindicator doesn't make sense, but Basilisks are very much supposed to be hunched in the back.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I would not consider it cheese, since it's just a way to play the game.
That said, I find it lamentable that shielding your tanks with infantry is a good tactic, when the whole purpose of tanks is to shield infantry, to be the "spearhead".

Some tanks, yes. A Vindicator doesn't make sense, but Basilisks are very much supposed to be hunched in the back.

Well, a basilisk is not a tank, it's artillery so that's perfectly fine. Leman Russes though should be screening both the artillery and the infantry for example. But, here we are.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I ask only out of curiousity, but is playing something like MSUs of cheap troops to block against melee armies considered a cheese tactic? I don't mean high meta, I just mean unfair, or against fun. Usually as a World Eaters player I will play cultists and rush them up as distractions and protection for my slower characters like Dark Apostles. But in my last game I played the exact same cultists, but this time I used them as a meat shield for my T-sons. Suddenly they want to pin me to a cross for bringing MSUs of cheap troops. I know I do my rants here and there, but I CANNOT be the only person who brings bubblewrap to casual games, especially when I know im a gunline against an assault.

This is literally the most fluffy and appropriate use of cultists. What's cheesy is that they are viable as anything OTHER than a chaff screen

There is a large historical basis for using infantry to cover for tanks. A tank without infantry support would be very vulnerable to enemy infantry sneaking up on it or flanking it. Using cheap troops to cover for vehicles or other units is a good tactic, not a cheesy one. Cheesy tactics usually involve things that are clearly not "realistic" and usually involve creative interpretations of vague or poorly worded rules. Nothing about screening units is vague or unrealistic. Cheap screening units usually also die very easily, so maybe they could try shooting them off the board and then deep strike next to the tank the following turn? Demanding that they be given the opportunity to just drop on top of you without you doing anything about it seems to be a 'them' problem not a 'you' problem.

ComradeRed1308 wrote:
There is a large historical basis for using infantry to cover for tanks. A tank without infantry support would be very vulnerable to enemy infantry sneaking up on it or flanking it. Using cheap troops to cover for vehicles or other units is a good tactic, not a cheesy one. Cheesy tactics usually involve things that are clearly not "realistic" and usually involve creative interpretations of vague or poorly worded rules. Nothing about screening units is vague or unrealistic. Cheap screening units usually also die very easily, so maybe they could try shooting them off the board and then deep strike next to the tank the following turn? Demanding that they be given the opportunity to just drop on top of you without you doing anything about it seems to be a 'them' problem not a 'you' problem.

Its almost like there was a meme from 10+ years ago that made fun of this

Tactics aren't cheese.

Is intelligent play and deployment overpowered?

Because really, anyone can do it. It’s very basic and a key part of strategy in this game.

I once had someone get upset because I moved a unit in front of a vehicle so he couldn't charge the vehicle. I was the cheesiest person in the world in that moment.

This is 40k.
Life is cheap as dirt. Tanks are ancient holy artifacts.
In this setting it makes total sense that a commander would protect his tanks with a wall of infantry.

4 point guardsmen are cheezy. Where they stand isn't.

Is using close-quarters combat to lock up shooting units cheesy?

If no, then I'm going to keep my tanks bubble wrapped.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Ok.. i'm not even going to answer that.

Let me ask you this, "Is playing all shooting units cheesy?" "Is playing an army with -1 to hit cheesy?" "Is advancing with melee units cheesy?"

Come on dude.....

I'll have you know they find my World Eater Berzerkers to be VERY cheesy when put inside a rhino, so I don't know what is reality anymore outside of my playgroup. I rarely get a chance to play with people other than them.

You seem to be suffering from a CAAC group. Some people will call out anything that makes you win cheesy.

There are two ways to break out of this, with no guarantee to work:
1) Show them the real cheese. Field Alpha Legion Forward Operative Berzerkers, charge them first turn, fight three times, take units as hostages so the berzerkers cannot be shot. Best case they will stop having issues with rhinos, worst case they stop playing you.
2) Check if you are the shark in your local pond. If everyone else is just buying what they like to build or paint with next to no units in doubles or tripples, try tuning down your lists to match theirs. Best case both sides will have more enjoyable games, worst case they will start complaining about how powerswords on chaos lords are OP.

I agree with the 2nd point there. Although it does feel kind of bad if you:
Over de-tune your list to whats basically an auto-lose, or;
Play with a "bad" list and still decisively win.

Yes, of course bubblewrap is cheesy. How dare you protect your important units instead of exposing them out in the open where they can be easily killed and your opponents can feel good about how awesome at 40k they are. Think of your opponent's enjoyment too, let them kill all your best stuff ASAP.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I agree with the 2nd point there. Although it does feel kind of bad if you:
Over de-tune your list to whats basically an auto-lose, or;
Play with a "bad" list and still decisively win.

I guess it depends on your perspective on the whole thing.

I play a lot of strategy games on my computer, and generally after a while, I have to crank up the difficulty to "insane" or "legendary" or whatever to keep enjoying and playing the game because once you figure out the best tactics and unit combos, the game is simple to the point of being boring.

Almost invariably, those highest difficulty levels involve the computer basically cheating to put you into disadvantageous matchups, because there's a point where how smart the AI is caps out and you can't increase the difficulty that way.

There are certain ultra-"causal" players who will just always be miserable to play against (I'm talking about you, space marine player who takes 7 armor saves on his terminators, fails one and smacks the table yelling "GOD, they ALWAYS DIE!!!" and Tau player who kills half your unit in overwatch and then sighs heavily and gives up when the other half succeeds the charge) but most casual players will respect that you're intentionally taking a handicap to have a challenging game.

Basically anyone who gets super pissy over "micro" bad things happening will be miserable no matter what, because micro bad things will happen when you win, and when you lose. Whether they play casual lists or competitive lists, anyone who can't just laugh off a bad dice roll you should just not play.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I agree with the 2nd point there. Although it does feel kind of bad if you:
Over de-tune your list to whats basically an auto-lose, or;
Play with a "bad" list and still decisively win.

I've already tuned my lists down in the past, with not so great results. Not in the sense that I just got demolished, but in the sense that I still won, and my opponents still complained. The worst offense was when I tried out a gunline of Skullcannons and Daemon Engines versus Tau gunline, and won handedly, with only about a quarter of my force consisteing of melee.

Sure it's frustrating as hell but truthfully I'd be surprised if an opponent just left a tank out in the open, probably a little suspicious too - what kind of shenanigans will I be charging my stuff into if I take that 170ish point target?
That dude has blue vein hiding up at least one of his sleeves.