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A situation that came up in a game recently :

Leman Russ Punisher shoots at a target unit that has some models within range and some out of range (over 24 inches away).
I roll 20 dice for the first shot and resolve wounds, this removes all the models within 24 inches of the turret.
Can the Russ fire the turret weapon again, despite the fact the target unit is now out of range?

Discussion within my group has got it down to a question of the wording of the rule grinding advance "can shoot its turret weapon twice".
Does this mean :

The Russ acts like it has two turret weapons and declares their targets at the same point in time (during the same shooting sequence, so during the target selection the enemy unit is a valid target)

The Russ makes a second shooting sequence, in which case the unit is no longer a valid target (and since the rule specifies the same target the extra shots are wasted)

Edit: slight DERP, but the Rulebook FAQ still applies:

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g. Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second.

"...(the turret weapon must target the same unit both times)..."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/26/regiment-focus-mordian-sep26gw-homepage-post-2/

Now, if there are stratagems that add to a units shooting attack (say, +1 to hit); then it's going to come down to the wording, if they last the entire attack, or the entire phase - then there might be a seperate argument to be made if you're selecting the tank once during the shooting phase, or twice during the shooting phase (since 2 attacks).

 Cultiststeve wrote:
A situation that came up in a game recently :

Leman Russ Punisher shoots at a target unit that has some models within range and some out of range (over 24 inches away).
I roll 20 dice for the first shot and resolve wounds, this removes all the models within 24 inches of the turret.
Can the Russ fire the turret weapon again, despite the fact the target unit is now out of range?

Discussion within my group has got it down to a question of the wording of the rule grinding advance "can shoot its turret weapon twice".
Does this mean :

The Russ acts like it has two turret weapons and declares their targets at the same point in time (during the same shooting sequence, so during the target selection the enemy unit is a valid target)

The Russ makes a second shooting sequence, in which case the unit is no longer a valid target (and since the rule specifies the same target the extra shots are wasted)

It can. You're not selecting the Leman Russ to "fire again", you just get to shoot the Turret gun twice. It's basically emulating you having "Two X" on your datasheet instead of "One X".

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Edit: slight DERP, but the Rulebook FAQ still applies:

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g. Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second.

Because (disregarding the other text on Grinding Advance) "shoots twice" can be at separate targets, that requires two shooting sequences so the unit would not be a valid target the second time around.
Thanks for point that out (even though the FAQ question was not really asking what I needed, they accidentally clarified it in comments).

All the FAQ demands is that you roll both batches separately (i.e. Heavy D6 doesn't become Heavy 2D6). It doesn't mean you select them to shoot again. If that was the case you could select all your guns to shoot again. If you want to have an analogy, the rule basically makes you pretend you're armed with two turret weapons instead of one, and you must resolve the effects of the first volley before shooting the same (i.e. you can't fast roll them).

Considering the wording of Grinding Advance, if your target is out of range after the first shot (because of casualties removed at the front) you cannot shoot a second time.
Your not getting double the shots, your fully resolving an attack (including checking distance) twice.

This is different to say, First rank fire, Second rank Fire which does actually increase your number of shots rather then shooting twice.

 Cultiststeve wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Edit: slight DERP, but the Rulebook FAQ still applies:

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g. Maugan Ra’s Whirlwind of Death ability, or an Aggressor Squad’s Fire Storm ability), do I need to shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets? Do I need to resolve these two shooting attacks back to back?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different targets each time it shoots. The attacks are resolved back to
back – resolve the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second.

Because (disregarding the other text on Grinding Advance) "shoots twice" can be at separate targets, that requires two shooting sequences so the unit would not be a valid target the second time around.
Thanks for point that out (even though the FAQ question was not really asking what I needed, they accidentally clarified it in comments).

Aggressors don't get selected to shoot again, they just shoot their guns twice. You have to select the two targets for the Aggressors before you make any shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Considering the wording of Grinding Advance, if your target is out of range after the first shot (because of casualties removed at the front) you cannot shoot a second time.
Your not getting double the shots, your fully resolving an attack (including checking distance) twice.

This is different to say, First rank fire, Second rank Fire which does actually increase your number of shots rather then shooting twice.

Not true at all. That's like saying if I have two Boltguns, I have to fire one boltgun before selecting the target for the second, which is not the case.

Grinding Advance lets you shoot the gun a second time, it does NOT make you select the unit to shoot again, like how the fight twice rules work. Look at the Volley Fire Stratagem. Same effect.

But the FAQ states "shoots twice" means you could select different targets, implying you select a target for each shoot. And the now-out-of-range unit is not a valid target for the second shoot.
It also clearly defines them as seperate shooting attacks, following the entire sequence each time. Not doubling the number of shots (like rapid fire wording).

Volley Fire also says "shoot again", so would be a seperate attack following the shooting sequence, including selecting a valid target.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
But the FAQ states "shoots twice" means you could select different targets, implying you select a target for each shoot. And the now-out-of-range unit is not a valid target for the second shoot.
It also clearly defines them as seperate shooting attacks, following the entire sequence each time. Not doubling the number of shots (like rapid fire wording).

Volley Fire also says "shoot again", so would be a seperate attack following the shooting sequence, including selecting a valid target.

Yes, it means you can select different targets, the same way I can select different targets for the Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolter Sponsons on my Predator. I don't select the Predator to shoot with it's Twin Lascannon, then select the Predator to shoot it's Heavy Bolters, all Range and LOS is checked at the same time when declaring your shooting in step 2.

The only thing special about Grinding Advance is that you have to put both Turret attacks into the same weapon. The rules are not a democracy and the rules here are perfectly clear. It would be nice for GW to give an FAQ to make it clear to those who don't understand that however.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
But the FAQ states "shoots twice" means you could select different targets, implying you select a target for each shoot. And the now-out-of-range unit is not a valid target for the second shoot.
It also clearly defines them as seperate shooting attacks, following the entire sequence each time. Not doubling the number of shots (like rapid fire wording).

Volley Fire also says "shoot again", so would be a seperate attack following the shooting sequence, including selecting a valid target.

Yes, it means you can select different targets, the same way I can select different targets for the Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolter Sponsons on my Predator.

Good point actualy. I read "resolve the first shooting attack" in the FAQ to mean the whole shooting sequence. Phase 4 is "resolve attacks".So if it was just repeating phase 4, then it would have declared the target before they came out of range.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
Good point actualy. I read "resolve the first shooting attack" in the FAQ to mean the whole shooting sequence. Phase 4 is "resolve attacks".So if it was just repeating phase 4, then it would have declared the target before they came out of range.

Exactly.

Too bad I cant change poll answer.

RAW, before firing any weapons a model/unit jas, all iof its attacls must be allowcated before resolving any attacks. You measure once each for the two turret weapon attacks you are making.

If you did roll the first set of turret weapons before declaring the targets for your second turret weapon attack, then you cannot shoot the weapon the second time as you have violated the shooting attack sequence and not because the target is no longer in ramge.

As long as you selected your targets before resolving any shots, you don't measure range twice.

 skchsan wrote:
RAW, before firing any weapons a model/unit jas, all iof its attacls must be allowcated before resolving any attacks. You measure once each for the two turret weapon attacks you are making.

If you did roll the first set of turret weapons before declaring the targets for your second turret weapon attack, then you cannot shoot the weapon the second time as you have violated the shooting attack sequence and not because the target is no longer in ramge.

As long as you selected your targets before resolving any shots, you don't measure range twice.

RAW you roll die one at a time? Why would fastrolling some of them invalidate the rest? I declared all shots into the target before I started rolling.

As long as you declared them all fast rolling isn't a problem.

 Cultiststeve wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
RAW, before firing any weapons a model/unit jas, all iof its attacls must be allowcated before resolving any attacks. You measure once each for the two turret weapon attacks you are making.

If you did roll the first set of turret weapons before declaring the targets for your second turret weapon attack, then you cannot shoot the weapon the second time as you have violated the shooting attack sequence and not because the target is no longer in ramge.

As long as you selected your targets before resolving any shots, you don't measure range twice.

RAW you roll die one at a time? Why would fastrolling some of them invalidate the rest? I declared all shots into the target before I started rolling.

You seem to have misunderstood my point. The following is the legal sequence that takes place when firing with a LR that remained stationary:

1. declare which weapons being fired
2. declare targets for each weapon
3. resolve the attack

By declaring a target of the second volley of fires from the turret weapon after the first volley of fires have been resolved does not follow the legal sequence of the shooting phase. By doing so, you've went through steps 1-3, then restarted the sequence from step 1. A unit must declare which weapons it's firing before rolling any dice to resolve any attacks.

Fast rolling has nothing to do with invalidating anything.

 skchsan wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
RAW, before firing any weapons a model/unit jas, all iof its attacls must be allowcated before resolving any attacks. You measure once each for the two turret weapon attacks you are making.

If you did roll the first set of turret weapons before declaring the targets for your second turret weapon attack, then you cannot shoot the weapon the second time as you have violated the shooting attack sequence and not because the target is no longer in ramge.

As long as you selected your targets before resolving any shots, you don't measure range twice.

RAW you roll die one at a time? Why would fastrolling some of them invalidate the rest? I declared all shots into the target before I started rolling.

You seem to have misunderstood my point. The following is the legal sequence that takes place when firing with a LR that remained stationary:

1. declare which weapons being fired
2. declare targets for each weapon
3. resolve the attack

By declaring a target of the second volley of fires from the turret weapon after the first volley of fires have been resolved does not follow the legal sequence of the shooting phase. By doing so, you've went through steps 1-3, then restarted the sequence from step 1. A unit must declare which weapons it's firing before rolling any dice to resolve any attacks.

Fast rolling has nothing to do with invalidating anything.

Sure, I get the firing sequence side of it.
But the question that arose during my game is if the wording of Grinding Advance means the bonus weapon fire is done within the same sequence, or if "fires twice" means the shooting sequence is repeated for the second time.

It's one unit, so you cannot go back to step 1 once you have passed it.
It's just one member of the unit firing the guns twice. That's it.