How strong can a chaos soup be? (deathguard and nurgle?)

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**SIKAMIKA**

so i played vs a deathguard player and he had 6 demon princes and mortarion all of them(princes) buffing him.

3 deathwatch demon princes and 3 nurgle demon princes flying behind mortarion delivering him 3 buffs per round...making him almost immortal with cumulative +1 to hit buffs and -1 to be hit

is this legit?

**Captyn_Bob**

The list sounds legal.

In matched play, same name spells can't be used more than once per turn, so you shouldn't be taking cumulative penalties of the same spell. For example miasma can only be cast on Mortarion once, so a maximum of -1 to hit. He can get a lot of buffs from different sources , but nothing that will make him unkillable.

**BaconCatBug**

SIKAMIKA wrote:
so i played vs a deathguard player and he had 6 demon princes and mortarion all of them(princes) buffing him.

3 deathwatch demon princes and 3 nurgle demon princes flying behind mortarion delivering him 3 buffs per round...making him almost immortal with cumulative +1 to hit buffs and -1 to be hit

is this legit?

It depends. Are you playing matched play? Is he casting the same power multiple times? Are you using the "Rule of 3" suggestion? Has he correctly Isolated his units into detachments so they benefit from their detachment traits?

In any case he can take 3 Death Guard Princes and 3 Chaos Daemons Princes just fine even with the Rule of 3. If he's casting the same psychic power (i.e. ones with the same name) multiple times that is not legal in matched play, even if the powers are from different books (the FAQ confirms that the name is what is important).

The solution is to ignore Mortarian and shoot the Princes.

**SIKAMIKA**

yes we play matched play and rule of 3.. he was casting diferent spells but there are tow that were both giving him +1 to hit and 6's do extra mortal wounds (the only diference was that the other spell was giving extra attacks at 5s and 6s and mortal wounds!

**BaconCatBug**

SIKAMIKA wrote:
yes we play matched play and rule of 3.. he was casting diferent spells but there are tow that were both giving him +1 to hit and 6's do extra mortal wounds (the only diference was that the other spell was giving extra attacks at 5s and 6s and mortal wounds!

What powers exactly was he using? If he was using Prescience he'd have to have a non-Death Guard Daemon Prince to do it, which would probably screw up his detachments.

Was he using 3 Death Guard Daemon Princes (i.e. they had Disgustingly Resilient) and 3 Chaos Daemons NURGLE Princes?

**SIKAMIKA**

yes he had 3 deathguard and 3 nurgle demon princes...he was giving a total of 3 buffs to mortarion and some debuffs to me...not sure about the names but i think it was pestilence of miasma and 1 other form deathguard and 1 from nurge? (virulent blessing and blades of putrification)

**Grimtuff**

SIKAMIKA wrote:
yes he had 3 deathguard and 3 nurgle demon princes...he was giving a total of 3 buffs to mortarion and some debuffs to me...not sure about the names but i think it was pestilence of miasma and 1 other form deathguard and 1 from nurge? (virulent blessing and blades of putrification)

Miasma from each book is not stackable (plus as BCB said you cannot cast it more than once in matched play anyway, regardless of source).

Virulent Blessing is legal as Morty is a Nurgle Daemon unit.

Likewise Blades of Putrefaction, as he is a DG unit.

You've not mentioned Putrescent Vitality, but it is one of the DG buff spells- However Morty is NOT a legal target for it as he is not Infantry.

The force is legal to take, but on a personal level my years of experience have taught me people like this are not worth your time playing. Roll on Supreme Command detachments going the way of the Dinosaurs...

**Jidmah**

SIKAMIKA wrote:
yes we play matched play and rule of 3.. he was casting diferent spells but there are tow that were both giving him +1 to hit and 6's do extra mortal wounds (the only diference was that the other spell was giving extra attacks at 5s and 6s and mortal wounds!

There is no point in giving Mortarion +1 to hit (especially twice) since he already hits on 2+ and rerolls ones.

What most likely happened:
- OP was playing an Imperium army thus rolls of six to hit trigger Mortarion's Death to the False Emperor for an extra attack. That extra attack can use Silence's second profile to make three hit rolls. No psychic powers involved
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Putrefying Blades for +1 to wound and the chance of causing a mortal wound on a wound roll of 7+ when the target is using a plague weapon (Silence is a plague weapon). This spell can be cast by DG Daemon princes and can target any DG unit, including Mortarion. Mortarion can also cast this on himself.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Virulent Blessing for +1 to wound and the chance of doubling the damage an attack does on a wound roll of 7+. This spell can be cast by princes from the Daemon Codex with a Nurgle alignment and can target any NURGLE DAEMONS including Mortarion.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Miasma of Pestilence for -1 to hit for everything that targets him. It can be cast by DG princes or by Mortarion on DG units or by princes from the daemon codex on all NURGLE DAEMONS or by princes from the CSM codex on NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES units. All three variants can target Mortarion, but one one Miasma of Pestilence can be cast per turn.

This results in Mortarion getting +2 to wound (re-rolling ones because of plague weapon) and triggering both the Mortal Wound and the double damage on a roll of 5 or 6 and units targeting him get -1 to hit.

Other things that might also have happened:
- Princes from the daemon codex can cast Fleshy Abundance on Mortarion, healing him for d3 wounds.
- Princes from the daemon codex can provide the Locus of Virulence to Mortarion, adding +1 damage on a to wound roll of 6+ (4+ with the two buffs). This would lead to Silence's multi-hit profile to deal up to four damage and one mortal wound for each of his 18 hit rolls, +3 for each 6 rolled to hit against an imperium unit.
- All three disciplines in questions have at least one debuf power.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:
The force is legal to take, but on a personal level my years of experience have taught me people like this are not worth your time playing. Roll on Supreme Command detachments going the way of the Dinosaurs...

You would be throwing a fit about a very tame and most likely fluffy list here though. If the player wanted to be the cheese that stands alone, he would have brought TS daemon princes (and possibly Ahriman and Magnus) instead of DG princes since Mortarion can just put the two DG buffs on himself and they have full access to the dark hereticus powers, including warptime and diabolic strength, for a 24" moving Mortarion with either 21 S10 or 7 S20 attacks, on top of everything described above.

What the Mortarion player did here is more like a cute trick, not really something absurdly powerful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconCatBug wrote:
What powers exactly was he using? If he was using Prescience he'd have to have a non-Death Guard Daemon Prince to do it, which would probably screw up his detachments.

That wouldn't matter though, because outside of TS no daemon prince benefits from legion rules. There is no downside to mixing DG and CSM princes in one supreme command detachment.

**Grimtuff**

Fluffy to take an army composed entirely of HQ units?

What has this game become?

Nice of you to put some emotion that wasn't there in my post. I've been playing this game for 2 decades and there's only one type of player that plays this kind of list and frankly they're not worth my time. Power has nothing to do with it.

**Jidmah**

Grimtuff wrote:
Fluffy to take an army composed entirely of HQ units?

What has this game become?

There are plenty examples of this in the fluff. There are tons of formations in 7th that did exactly this.
It's perfectly reasonable for the daemon primarch of nurgle to be followed into combat by body guard/council of six daemon princes. They even add up to be seven daemons, the holy number of nurgle.

Nice of you to put some emotion that wasn't there in my post. I've been playing this game for 2 decades and there's only one type of player that plays this kind of list and frankly they're not worth my time. Power has nothing to do with it.

"This kind of list". You are basically walking away from an army because you don't like it for arbitrary reasons. A perfectly legal list that is neither especially strong nor exploiting any loop holes. That's throwing a fit to me.

**Tristanleo**

Jidmah wrote:

There is no point in giving Mortarion +1 to hit (especially twice) since he already hits on 2+ and rerolls ones.

What most likely happened:
- OP was playing an Imperium army thus rolls of six to hit trigger Mortarion's Death to the False Emperor for an extra attack. That extra attack can use Silence's second profile to make three hit rolls. No psychic powers involved
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Putrefying Blades for +1 to wound and the chance of causing a mortal wound on a wound roll of 7+ when the target is using a plague weapon (Silence is a plague weapon). This spell can be cast by DG Daemon princes and can target any DG unit, including Mortarion. Mortarion can also cast this on himself.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Virulent Blessing for +1 to wound and the chance of doubling the damage an attack does on a wound roll of 7+. This spell can be cast by princes from the Daemon Codex with a Nurgle alignment and can target any NURGLE DAEMONS including Mortarion.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Miasma of Pestilence for -1 to hit for everything that targets him. It can be cast by DG princes or by Mortarion on DG units or by princes from the daemon codex on all NURGLE DAEMONS or by princes from the CSM codex on NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES units. All three variants can target Mortarion, but one one Miasma of Pestilence can be cast per turn.

Actually there is a point to casting +1 to hit on Morty twice, Death to the false emperor triggers on a 6+, not a natural 6. so giving him 2 different +1 to hit buffs means he effectively triggers death to the false emperor on a 4+, turning him into a ridiculously powerful blender that can wipe away swathes of models in a single turn.

**Grimtuff**

Jidmah wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Fluffy to take an army composed entirely of HQ units?

What has this game become?

There are plenty examples of this in the fluff. There are tons of formations in 7th that did exactly this.
It's perfectly reasonable for the daemon primarch of nurgle to be followed into combat by body guard/council of six daemon princes. They even add up to be seven daemons, the holy number of nurgle.

Nice of you to put some emotion that wasn't there in my post. I've been playing this game for 2 decades and there's only one type of player that plays this kind of list and frankly they're not worth my time. Power has nothing to do with it.

"This kind of list". You are basically walking away from an army because you don't like it for arbitrary reasons. A perfectly legal list that is neither especially strong nor exploiting any loop holes. That's throwing a fit to me.

Keep doing the mental gymnastics mate. For the majority of the life of this game armies have consisted of troops and actual footsoldiers, not a primarch and his few buddies. Only recently have people been able to do this outside of Apoc and they're all TFG IME. But I don't really have to justify myself to you.

I've seen this dance many many times before. In 3rd ed. it was Wraithlord spam (hey look the Harlie ones are Elites! You can take 6 brah!), which was totally "fluffy". Yup seeing them turn up in every Alaitoc list, because nothing says "infiltrating fast moving snipers" like a trio of 20ft tall robots. The infiltrating Daemonic speed Lords, Slaaneshi psychic power spam, "leafblower" lists. All IME are used and abused by one type of player and I don't have the time nor energy to play them. Power has nothing to do with it. Being a witch does.

**Jidmah**

1) This is a forum about rules
2) You are throwing a fit because you arbitrarily decided on rules how armies should be built. So I'm not putting anything in your posts that wasn't there.
3) Daemon princes used to be heavy support, making your "back in my time" rage look even more silly.

**SIKAMIKA**

Jidmah wrote:
SIKAMIKA wrote:
yes we play matched play and rule of 3.. he was casting diferent spells but there are tow that were both giving him +1 to hit and 6's do extra mortal wounds (the only diference was that the other spell was giving extra attacks at 5s and 6s and mortal wounds!

There is no point in giving Mortarion +1 to hit (especially twice) since he already hits on 2+ and rerolls ones.

What most likely happened:
- OP was playing an Imperium army thus rolls of six to hit trigger Mortarion's Death to the False Emperor for an extra attack. That extra attack can use Silence's second profile to make three hit rolls. No psychic powers involved
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Putrefying Blades for +1 to wound and the chance of causing a mortal wound on a wound roll of 7+ when the target is using a plague weapon (Silence is a plague weapon). This spell can be cast by DG Daemon princes and can target any DG unit, including Mortarion. Mortarion can also cast this on himself.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Virulent Blessing for +1 to wound and the chance of doubling the damage an attack does on a wound roll of 7+. This spell can be cast by princes from the Daemon Codex with a Nurgle alignment and can target any NURGLE DAEMONS including Mortarion.
- The nurgle player buffed Mortarion with Miasma of Pestilence for -1 to hit for everything that targets him. It can be cast by DG princes or by Mortarion on DG units or by princes from the daemon codex on all NURGLE DAEMONS or by princes from the CSM codex on NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES units. All three variants can target Mortarion, but one one Miasma of Pestilence can be cast per turn.

This results in Mortarion getting +2 to wound (re-rolling ones because of plague weapon) and triggering both the Mortal Wound and the double damage on a roll of 5 or 6 and units targeting him get -1 to hit.

Other things that might also have happened:
- Princes from the daemon codex can cast Fleshy Abundance on Mortarion, healing him for d3 wounds.
- Princes from the daemon codex can provide the Locus of Virulence to Mortarion, adding +1 damage on a to wound roll of 6+ (4+ with the two buffs). This would lead to Silence's multi-hit profile to deal up to four damage and one mortal wound for each of his 18 hit rolls, +3 for each 6 rolled to hit against an imperium unit.
- All three disciplines in questions have at least one debuf power.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:
The force is legal to take, but on a personal level my years of experience have taught me people like this are not worth your time playing. Roll on Supreme Command detachments going the way of the Dinosaurs...

You would be throwing a fit about a very tame and most likely fluffy list here though. If the player wanted to be the cheese that stands alone, he would have brought TS daemon princes (and possibly Ahriman and Magnus) instead of DG princes since Mortarion can just put the two DG buffs on himself and they have full access to the dark hereticus powers, including warptime and diabolic strength, for a 24" moving Mortarion with either 21 S10 or 7 S20 attacks, on top of everything described above.

What the Mortarion player did here is more like a cute trick, not really something absurdly powerful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconCatBug wrote:
What powers exactly was he using? If he was using Prescience he'd have to have a non-Death Guard Daemon Prince to do it, which would probably screw up his detachments.

That wouldn't matter though, because outside of TS no daemon prince benefits from legion rules. There is no downside to mixing DG and CSM princes in one supreme command detachment.

i think you got it there right...thats what he did...but he also got warptime from his demon princes (index rules?) btw i was not imperium but tyranids!

**Jidmah**

He can just use a mix of DG and CSM daemon princes, all with Nurgle alliance. He wouldn't gain access to CSM stratagems that way, but he gets DG stratagems by fielding Mortarion in his own detachment.

Against Tyranids there is no way for Mortarion to get extra attacks on 6+.

**SIKAMIKA**

Jidmah wrote:
He can just use a mix of DG and CSM daemon princes, all with Nurgle alliance. He wouldn't gain access to CSM stratagems that way, but he gets DG stratagems by fielding Mortarion in his own detachment.

Against Tyranids there is no way for Mortarion to get extra attacks on 6+.

why not? please expain he used phycic powers to buff mortarion to get the extra attack at 6+

**JNAProductions**

SIKAMIKA wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
He can just use a mix of DG and CSM daemon princes, all with Nurgle alliance. He wouldn't gain access to CSM stratagems that way, but he gets DG stratagems by fielding Mortarion in his own detachment.

Against Tyranids there is no way for Mortarion to get extra attacks on 6+.

why not? please expain he used phycic powers to buff mortarion to get the extra attack at 6+

There's no power that does that. It's a rule, "Death To The False Emperor", and it only works against Imperium models.

**Nightlord1987**

There is a power that will give Morty extra Mortal Wounds on a 6+ to wound,but DTTFE only explodes on Imperium units.

**Kharneth**

6 Demon Princes of Nurgle and Mortarion sounds amazing!