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They never even got off the starting line thanks to President Sergio Mattarella, with calls for him to now be impeached.

Personally, I’m pretty disheartened at this turn of events. I’m getting the sense that a large and growing number of Italians are fed up with the euro and being economically shackled to Germany, so they turn to parties offering a different way.

But the pro EU establishment in Italy, probably lent on by Germany and Brussels, can’t have that and so they block them. Are we seeing yet another repeat of the classic EU tactic, make them keep voting until we like the answer? Because it looks like it. I really hope the Italian people don’t take this lying down and return them back with an even bigger majority.

Thank god Britain stayed out of the Euro. It’s been an absolute disaster for everyone. Except the Germans.

Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

tneva82 wrote:
Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

That's beginning to sound an awful lot like a personal attack.

Alternatively, this is what you get when you vote populist buffoons without any competence into government and expect them to solve the nation's problems.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

That's beginning to sound an awful lot like a personal attack.

Yeah it is. I didn’t stand for Kilkrazy calling me pathetic, and I won’t take it from that either. I’ve noticed that poster seems to have a real chip on their shoulder over Britain too.

I hope that the new election will give Cinque Stelle and Lega even better results. There is no reason to assume that Italy will recover while they are a part of the EU.

I apologised for that. It was not the right thing to say.

To get back to the topic, Italian governments collapse every 20 minutes or so.

It won't do the country any harm not to have a government for a few more months. Governments are less important than they like to think.

Belgium got on for over a year without a government.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Alternatively, this is what you get when you vote populist buffoons without any competence into government and expect them to solve the nation's problems.

I agree with this PoV.

Not sure how Italy would be better off without the EU supporting them. They receive way more than they can contribute to the EU.

tneva82 wrote:
Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

First off I’m anti brexit, second.... you don’t know what’s going to happen and how dare you try to crap on so many peoples vote, come what may we will pull through because that’s what it is to be British, will it be hard, yes, but we will make it work.

Guys, it's the Italian thread here. Let's talk about Italy.

The President of Italy made the right choice. The plans of the currently forming government on budget are mental. Its going to lead to a Greek style collapse where nobody wants to lend the Italian state money anymore.

tneva82 wrote:
Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

It's not like Italy is doing so hot inside the EU anyhow, barely managing a positive growth rate the last few years.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I apologised for that. It was not the right thing to say.

To get back to the topic, Italian governments collapse every 20 minutes or so.

It won't do the country any harm not to have a government for a few more months. Governments are less important than they like to think.

Belgium got on for over a year without a government.

You absolutely did apologise, yes. And I shouldn’t have brought it up again. It’s not fair to do that so I’m sorry. We cool?

Northern Ireland also hasn’t had a government for about a year and a half now and we’re doing...not great but no worse off than when we did have one.

 Formosa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah so you aren't happy with UK burning itself and so want Italy to burn itself to same miserable wreck UK is burning itself?-) Realizing your country is doomed to economic disaster and political outcast you want company to your pathetic level eh?

First off I’m anti brexit, second.... you don’t know what’s going to happen and how dare you try to crap on so many peoples vote, come what may we will pull through because that’s what it is to be British, will it be hard, yes, but we will make it work.

Respect.

BertBert wrote:
I hope that the new election will give Cinque Stelle and Lega even better results. There is no reason to assume that Italy will recover while they are a part of the EU.

Yep, exactly. The euro is a straight jacket that prevents countries from taking the measures needed to adjust their economies.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
They never even got off the starting line thanks to President Sergio Mattarella, with calls for him to now be impeached.

Personally, I’m pretty disheartened at this turn of events. I’m getting the sense that a large and growing number of Italians are fed up with the euro and being economically shackled to Germany, so they turn to parties offering a different way.

But the pro EU establishment in Italy, probably lent on by Germany and Brussels, can’t have that and so they block them. Are we seeing yet another repeat of the classic EU tactic, make them keep voting until we like the answer? Because it looks like it. I really hope the Italian people don’t take this lying down and return them back with an even bigger majority.

Thank god Britain stayed out of the Euro. It’s been an absolute disaster for everyone. Except the Germans.

Once again the democratic gap rears its head, and they wonder why people can't be bothered to vote any more or are disillusioned with the politicians and institutions that run their countries.

This only damages a country in the long run...

The Italian President is citing investor concern. Investor concern? Don't make me laugh.

The Italian people need to live or die by their own mistakes and choices.

These spivs need to butt out and their President should get shown the door.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT.

Looks like some former IMF technocrat is going to get the nod to be Prime Minister.

I suppose the little people can't be trusted, and they'll need a technocrat to tell them what's best for them.

Feth me, no wonder Western values, and Western Democracy is going backwards at a rate of knots...

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yep, exactly. The euro is a straight jacket that prevents countries from taking the measures needed to adjust their economies.

The problem is that the current parties forming a government have wildly unrealistic expectations. Its not just the EU, no financial market is going to support Italy on the path it wants to go down on. Its not odd that the President wants to prevent Italy from fully sliding into a Greece situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The Italian people need to live or die by their own mistakes and choices.

These spivs need to butt out and their President should get shown the door...

I suppose the little people can't be trusted, and they'll need a technocrat to tell them what's best for them.

Feth me, no wonder Western values, and Western Democracy is going backwards at a rate of knots...

This sounds nice and all. But even in a democracy you expect the people in charge to govern with at least a little competency. How bad of a mistake can people make before the people running the state are allowed to step in and point out its a terrible mistake?

Western values and democracy are indeed going backwards, but not because of actions like the President. More because of people voting for obvious liars and frauds (the supposed PM lied about his degree). Its no longer a case of making it work, its clear its completely fantastical what they propose.

I disagree disciple.

For the last 20 years, possibly longer, whenever a democratic decision needs to be made in any country, 9 times out of 10, the first reaction will be what will the markets think?

As though money was the be all and end all of democracy.

It's bad for our democratic system for the money to wield too much influence and power...

People forget that if the money men had their way, we'd all be doing 20 hour shifts down a coal mine 7 days a week, for a penny an hour.

Every good thing that we take for granted: trade unions, universal suffrage, paid holidays, etc etc

had to be wrenched from the money men at great cost.

I don't like business, I don't trust them. They only care about the bottom line, and there is a Fascist streak to them in the way they operate, particularly the big corporations...

The issue is that most modern democracies have to consider their budget. As the markets provide loans and many governments already hold foreign loans what the market thinks can be very important for the health of the state overall. While the EU was harsh on Greece, the EU was one of the only institutions willing to bail out Greece. The financial markets withdrew their lending capability to Greece because of how finances had been mismanaged and it looked like lending Greece money would just be lost.

This is bigger than just corporations and business. This isn't about Italian businesses pushing for what they want, these are the rules of the international market so large that its outside of Italy's control. Sure reform and go left, but do so with a sound plan, not by going "screw your rules, hold my beer". Italy's plan was the same as the video of the kid jumping on a cactus, it looks fun at first, but maybe the kid would have been better off not being allowed to jump on it in the first place. You need an element of reality in making plans, not just assuming it will work because you think it will. Because everybody has to clean up your mess, not just the people who were allowed to vote.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I apologised for that. It was not the right thing to say.

To get back to the topic, Italian governments collapse every 20 minutes or so.

It won't do the country any harm not to have a government for a few more months. Governments are less important than they like to think.

Belgium got on for over a year without a government.

You absolutely did apologise, yes. And I shouldn’t have brought it up again. It’s not fair to do that so I’m sorry. We cool?

Absolutely. In fact I think we have a lot of common ground.

To get back to the topic, Italy's economy has a lot of good fundamentals, with areas of strength in luxury goods and fashion, agriculture and premium foods, tourism, high-tech ceramics, and engineering.

However they've also got the Greek problem of too much spending and too little taxation.

The danger of having the Euro is that it easily allows big capital to ship money in and out of the country. It's a two-edged sword. If the economy is in the doldrums the money gets moved out. But if Italy can get on a growth path, that money will flood back in as fast as you like.

The Greek economy had weaker fundamentals than Italy.

Interesting issue. The democratic decision of the Italian people should be respected, but what if said decision leads to ruin?
I do not think this issue can be solved without resorting to dictatorship. The Italian people are poor, have suffered greatly under the financial crisis, and past austerity governments have royally failed to fix the economy and improve the standard of living. You are never going to get the Italian people to vote for more austerity again. It is logical for them to vote for the parties that promise to do it a different way, and they will keep doing that.
Problem is, if that other way does not work, it sends Italy and the rest of Europe with it into economical ruin. Italy is the 3rd-largest economy in Europe. It is too big for the EU to prop up like they did with Greece, but it is too important to fall as well.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Western values and democracy are indeed going backwards, but not because of actions like the President. More because of people voting for obvious liars and frauds (the supposed PM lied about his degree). Its no longer a case of making it work, its clear its completely fantastical what they propose.

That one is pure comedy gold. You are basically saying "Western democracy is going backwards because people vote for people I don't like."
You know that the freedom to vote for whomever you want is essential to democracy right? If people want to vote for a liar and fraud, they need to be allowed to do so. That is democracy. Preventing them from voting for the candidate they want to is downright dictatorial.

Italy has serious problems. A banking system up to their necks in corruption and most of it local. A political system mired in paralysis for decades. Continual scandal and collapse. Taking the brunt of the migrant crisis due to the selfish actions of other countries who have refused to help them (including the UK).

Add to this then the fascists of the League (and they are fascists, if you can't see it then I worry about your vision) and the absolutely hollow populists of the 5 Star Movement... it's bloody scary.

The President refusing to form a government is part of their system. It's ugly and it's unpleasant, but it is NOT mandated by the EU. Saying so, implying that it is, is sloppy thinking at worst and disingenuous at worst.

I don't know what will happen. I expect if there are fresh elections both parties will do better. The other side needs to win the argument about why cutting taxes to 15 and 20% while dramatically increasing spending is a bad idea, but I'm not sure Italians who have experienced a bad time and declining living standards along with the influx of so many migrants from across the Med will be willing to listen. The time to fix this was 10 years ago. It may be that we're going to have to live with the ugly consequences now.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To get back to the topic, Italian governments collapse every 20 minutes or so.

Yeah I saw this thread title and thought... isn't that about right for Italy?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Western values and democracy are indeed going backwards, but not because of actions like the President. More because of people voting for obvious liars and frauds (the supposed PM lied about his degree). Its no longer a case of making it work, its clear its completely fantastical what they propose.

That one is pure comedy gold. You are basically saying "Western democracy is going backwards because people vote for people I don't like."
You know that the freedom to vote for whomever you want is essential to democracy right? If people want to vote for a liar and fraud, they need to be allowed to do so. That is democracy. Preventing them from voting for the candidate they want to is downright dictatorial.

Not because they vote for people I don't like, that's fine. But they are voting for people who lie and are incompetent. The issue for me isn't the left-right divide or voting across it. The issue is that a growing number of people vote for unrealistic parties going "screw everyone but me". You can't maintain a healthy democratic enviroment in such conditions. A democracy is based on consensus, but these parties are relying on consensus less and less in favor of pandering to a hardcore viewpoint that doesn't work but gets votes.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote for them, I'm saying the existence and succes of these parties is damaging democracy by polarising the hell out of it. A representative democracy doesn't work when your party policy gets decided on by the craziest person in the room. I mean we all see what the pandering has led to in the US, can you seriously say its not a step backwards in a mature democracy?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Western values and democracy are indeed going backwards, but not because of actions like the President. More because of people voting for obvious liars and frauds (the supposed PM lied about his degree). Its no longer a case of making it work, its clear its completely fantastical what they propose.

That one is pure comedy gold. You are basically saying "Western democracy is going backwards because people vote for people I don't like."
You know that the freedom to vote for whomever you want is essential to democracy right? If people want to vote for a liar and fraud, they need to be allowed to do so. That is democracy. Preventing them from voting for the candidate they want to is downright dictatorial.

Not because they vote for people I don't like, that's fine. But they are voting for people who lie and are incompetent. The issue for me isn't the left-right divide or voting across it. The issue is that a growing number of people vote for unrealistic parties going "screw everyone but me". You can't maintain a healthy democratic enviroment in such conditions. A democracy is based on consensus, but these parties are relying on consensus less and less in favor of pandering to a hardcore viewpoint that doesn't work but gets votes.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote for them, I'm saying the existence and succes of these parties is damaging democracy by polarising the hell out of it. A representative democracy doesn't work when your party policy gets decided on by the craziest person in the room. I mean we all see what the pandering has led to in the US, can you seriously say its not a step backwards in a mature democracy?

It's not the first discussion in which your POV on "mature democracies" seems naive to say the least.

Whenever and wherever so called "populist" parties win or have significant growth it is not because some liar or fraud manipulated some people to vote for his unrealistic program and those people are to be blamed for not seeing through his lies. That is backwards thinking. People turn to "populists" as a result of frustration under the rule of "mature" parties that fail to deliver an inclusive democratic rule. Every major shift of power in the recent world, Trump, Orban, Kaczyński etc... happened because some major subgroup of general population felt left outside the equation (in cases of Trump and Kaczyński those were deliberate polarising actions/narratives perpetuated by what you call "mature" parties targeted at the very groups which shifted power). When this subgroup becomes large enough DEMOCRACY kicks in and you have a shift.

You really cannot call a "mature democratic party" an entity which fail to address the needs or the awareness of it's subjects. That is not "mature", that is usually elitist or straight up aristocratic.

And if you think that it's so easy to misguide populations large enough to win general elections then why on earth do you still insist on perpetuating democracy itself? It has been quite a repetetive scheme in the Western world recently, that liberal side cries about degradation of democracy and turn to non-democratic measures whenever basic democratic mechanisms turn against them. You either treat populations as dumb and rule by dictatorships or treat them as enlighted enough to self rule themselves via democracy. You don't get to cherrypick which democratic elections are a result of population being dumb an which are a result of population being mature because it's the same and singular population every f@&€&k time.

Geting back to topic: I find it quite strange, that there is so strong equivalence of EU=Eurozone still perpetuating after Greece and Brexit happened. Euro was political, not economical concept from the very start and everything of what we see today is a result of this misguided agenda. In a group of countries with so wildly varied economies single currency was doomed to spiral out of controll.

 Da Boss wrote:
Italy has serious problems. A banking system up to their necks in corruption and most of it local. A political system mired in paralysis for decades. Continual scandal and collapse. Taking the brunt of the migrant crisis due to the selfish actions of other countries who have refused to help them (including the UK).

Add to this then the fascists of the League (and they are fascists, if you can't see it then I worry about your vision) and the absolutely hollow populists of the 5 Star Movement... it's bloody scary.

The President refusing to form a government is part of their system. It's ugly and it's unpleasant, but it is NOT mandated by the EU. Saying so, implying that it is, is sloppy thinking at worst and disingenuous at worst.

I don't know what will happen. I expect if there are fresh elections both parties will do better. The other side needs to win the argument about why cutting taxes to 15 and 20% while dramatically increasing spending is a bad idea, but I'm not sure Italians who have experienced a bad time and declining living standards along with the influx of so many migrants from across the Med will be willing to listen. The time to fix this was 10 years ago. It may be that we're going to have to live with the ugly consequences now.

It's worth noting that it is the leader of the Five Star party who has refused to form a government, not the President. The Five Stars did this because the President refused the Northern League party nomination for minister of finance.

Let's also remind ourselves that for many years the prime minister of Italy was Silvio "Bunga Bunga" Berlusconi, and ponder what that tells us about democracy in modern Italy.

Sure, people have valid complaints and I'm not going to deny that. But then voting for people who promise you unicorns isn't going to magically make your complaints go away. I don't think people can't see through the lies. Its come to a point where they simply don't care its all lies. Its all about giving the middle finger to the rest of society, clinging to what YOU have at all cost. You won't solve your problems by voting for the guy with no ideas just because he yells more than the person who at least offers some ideas. The issue is that these complaints will be hard to solve because Western society has been living above its means for the past 50 years. Yeah its going to suck, but sacrifices are necessary to get the show back on the road in the future. People like the 5 star movement in Italy have no interest in the future, their plans do almost nothing for the younger generation and bring serious risk to the economic wellbeing of Italy. 5 star is going to double Italy's debt, which the younger generation is going to have to shoulder.

And I have a very different opinion on what constitutes a mature party. Its not just about how long its been around, its also is down to how it acts. Parties obviously change and the way they act now is damaging democracy and showing the cracks in the system.

Again, personally I think democracy has failed because were moving further and further into policies that are basically "feth you, got my votes". Long term planning for the future is being seriously undermined by current voting patterns.

As for the Euro, better controls are needed, its inevitable for the survival of the currency. Nobody will like it, but it has to happen if we don't want another crisis. I think even if Italy wasn't a Eurozone member however, their policy would still be dangerous to the condition of the EU overall.

Yanis Varoufakis thinks the Italian President has blundered badly. An interesting article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/28/italy-eurosceptic-far-right-technocrat-matarella-racist-populist#comments

nou wrote:


Whenever and wherever so called "populist" parties win or have significant growth it is not because some liar or fraud manipulated some people to vote for his unrealistic program and those people are to be blamed for not seeing through his lies. That is backwards thinking. People turn to "populists" as a result of frustration under the rule of "mature" parties that fail to deliver an inclusive democratic rule. Every major shift of power in the recent world, Trump, Orban, Kaczyński etc... happened because some major subgroup of general population felt left outside the equation (in cases of Trump and Kaczyński those were deliberate polarising actions/narratives perpetuated by what you call "mature" parties targeted at the very groups which shifted power). When this subgroup becomes large enough DEMOCRACY kicks in and you have a shift.

You really cannot call a "mature democratic party" an entity which fail to address the needs or the awareness of it's subjects. That is not "mature", that is usually elitist or straight up aristocratic.

And if you think that it's so easy to misguide populations large enough to win general elections then why on earth do you still insist on perpetuating democracy itself? It has been quite a repetetive scheme in the Western world recently, that liberal side cries about degradation of democracy and turn to non-democratic measures whenever basic democratic mechanisms turn against them. You either treat populations as dumb and rule by dictatorships or treat them as enlighted enough to self rule themselves via democracy. You don't get to cherrypick which democratic elections are a result of population being dumb an which are a result of population being mature because it's the same and singular population every f@&€&k time.

Geting back to topic: I find it quite strange, that there is so strong equivalence of EU=Eurozone still perpetuating after Greece and Brexit happened. Euro was political, not economical concept from the very start and everything of what we see today is a result of this misguided agenda. In a group of countries with so wildly varied economies single currency was doomed to spiral out of controll.

Well said.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, people have valid complaints and I'm not going to deny that. But then voting for people who promise you unicorns isn't going to magically make your complaints go away. I don't think people can't see through the lies. Its come to a point where they simply don't care its all lies. Its all about giving the middle finger to the rest of society, clinging to what YOU have at all cost. You won't solve your problems by voting for the guy with no ideas just because he yells more than the person who at least offers some ideas. The issue is that these complaints will be hard to solve because Western society has been living above its means for the past 50 years. Yeah its going to suck, but sacrifices are necessary to get the show back on the road in the future. People like the 5 star movement in Italy have no interest in the future, their plans do almost nothing for the younger generation and bring serious risk to the economic wellbeing of Italy. 5 star is going to double Italy's debt, which the younger generation is going to have to shoulder.

And I have a very different opinion on what constitutes a mature party. Its not just about how long its been around, its also is down to how it acts. Parties obviously change and the way they act now is damaging democracy and showing the cracks in the system.

Again, personally I think democracy has failed because were moving further and further into policies that are basically "feth you, got my votes". Long term planning for the future is being seriously undermined by current voting patterns.

As for the Euro, better controls are needed, its inevitable for the survival of the currency. Nobody will like it, but it has to happen if we don't want another crisis. I think even if Italy wasn't a Eurozone member however, their policy would still be dangerous to the condition of the EU overall.

I mean, you claim to understand, and you say the right words, but then you immediately assert one single point of view regarding the present situation, what led to it, and how to fix it as an undeniable, unequivocal, unavoidable truth with only one solution. You, like most of the governments these kinds of irrational "democratic rebellions" are against, have a nice cosy technocratic view of what went wrong and how to fix it, everyone just has to tighten their belt oh well onward and upward eh chaps can't upset the markets etc.

Plenty of folk out there fundamentally disagree with the reasons behind the economic decline, exactly what "sacrifices", if any, are necessary and also who should be made to bear the burden of them, and what the solution is going forward, but they've been told for thirty+ years now that the People In Charge Know All, and plebs need to just shut it and do what they're told no matter how far their living standards decline, no matter how rampant the corruption in their institutions, no matter how incestuous the relationship between government and business becomes, and no matter how much public money is funneled into the private sector as a result.

The whole point of a democratic system is supposed to be that the people are the ones who, ultimately, choose the direction their nation takes, and for thirty+ years that principle has been steadily eroded and subverted until now, the idea that the people are fundamentally in charge rather than a cadre of bureaucrats, technocrats, and corporate leaders is presented as a bad thing. And you wonder why people don't care that the new wave of populist parties are lying and just want to lash out at the system?

How about instead of trying to lock out any and all alternative views and gaking on folk for using the only way they can find to express their anger in a way that might actually have some impact, the vacuous "end of history" neoliberal-centrist branch of politics actually address some of their problems and complaints.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, people have valid complaints and I'm not going to deny that. But then voting for people who promise you unicorns isn't going to magically make your complaints go away. I don't think people can't see through the lies. Its come to a point where they simply don't care its all lies. Its all about giving the middle finger to the rest of society, clinging to what YOU have at all cost. You won't solve your problems by voting for the guy with no ideas just because he yells more than the person who at least offers some ideas. The issue is that these complaints will be hard to solve because Western society has been living above its means for the past 50 years. Yeah its going to suck, but sacrifices are necessary to get the show back on the road in the future. People like the 5 star movement in Italy have no interest in the future, their plans do almost nothing for the younger generation and bring serious risk to the economic wellbeing of Italy. 5 star is going to double Italy's debt, which the younger generation is going to have to shoulder.

And I have a very different opinion on what constitutes a mature party. Its not just about how long its been around, its also is down to how it acts. Parties obviously change and the way they act now is damaging democracy and showing the cracks in the system.

Again, personally I think democracy has failed because were moving further and further into policies that are basically "feth you, got my votes". Long term planning for the future is being seriously undermined by current voting patterns.

As for the Euro, better controls are needed, its inevitable for the survival of the currency. Nobody will like it, but it has to happen if we don't want another crisis. I think even if Italy wasn't a Eurozone member however, their policy would still be dangerous to the condition of the EU overall.

I mean, you claim to understand, and you say the right words, but then you immediately assert one single point of view regarding the present situation, what led to it, and how to fix it as an undeniable, unequivocal, unavoidable truth with only one solution. You, like most of the governments these kinds of irrational "democratic rebellions" are against, have a nice cosy technocratic view of what went wrong and how to fix it, everyone just has to tighten their belt oh well onward and upward eh chaps can't upset the markets etc.

Plenty of folk out there fundamentally disagree with the reasons behind the economic decline, exactly what "sacrifices", if any, are necessary and also who should be made to bear the burden of them, and what the solution is going forward, but they've been told for thirty+ years now that the People In Charge Know All, and plebs need to just shut it and do what they're told no matter how far their living standards decline, no matter how rampant the corruption in their institutions, no matter how incestuous the relationship between government and business becomes, and no matter how much public money is funneled into the private sector as a result.

The whole point of a democratic system is supposed to be that the people are the ones who, ultimately, choose the direction their nation takes, and for thirty+ years that principle has been steadily eroded and subverted until now, the idea that the people are fundamentally in charge rather than a cadre of bureaucrats, technocrats, and corporate leaders is presented as a bad thing. And you wonder why people don't care that the new wave of populist parties are lying and just want to lash out at the system?

How about instead of trying to lock out any and all alternative views and gaking on folk for using the only way they can find to express their anger in a way that might actually have some impact, the vacuous "end of history" neoliberal-centrist branch of politics actually address some of their problems and complaints.

Where did I state my own opinion is the unequivocal truth? Technocratic governments have their issues but so do the regular democratic ones. Tightening belts is almost unavoidable, how many not of the baby boomer generation can say they have a better life than their parents, got their own house as easy or earn more money while being more highly educated? Issue is is that the baby boomer generation has been living beyond their means, cashing checks that the average children per couple metric in the West can't compete with. Take the Netherlands for example, the older generations, 50+, are generally the wealthiest population group. Why should these people expect not to have to tighten their belts a little to not squeeze the next generation dry? This is an issue in most European states, the elderly relatively more wealthy population is using basic demographics to get out of democracy what they want, the future generation be damned. Italy's 5 star movement is having strong tendencies like that too. Its not just about business and upsetting the markets, its about not putting people through the absolutely devastating consequences of doubling the national debt on what are really fantastical policies.

Sure, we can argue about the reasons for economic decline. What we shouldn't do as most of these parties do is ignore the fundemental nature that it is relatively declining (as in the conditions for the average person). Clinging to past borrowed wealth and denying reform is necessary isn't the answer. The people in charge don't know all, but the issue is that they have become overly reliant on groups that are less interested in the future and more the here and now. Now that wouldn't be a bad thing if it weren't for the demographic and climate cliff on the horizon that is being adressed at glacial speeds.

I understand why people dislike the system, but electing these parties is cutting of your nose to spite your face. The issue is that a lot of complaints these people have about the current system is from the inherent unsustainability of it, it sucks, but that is what it is. But you don't prop up an unsustainable system by throwing even more money after it. We need to work on a reset and create a more robust social system, not desperately cling to every inch of the one we have, because who is going to pay for that once all the babyboomers retire?

I'm down with alternative points of views, what I'm not ok with is people walking away from personal responsibility after making a mess. The "end of history" is already outdated. The problem is that quite a few of the issues that need adressing today can't be adressed because that is how democracy functions. Personally I don't think the way the world economy functions now is sustainable in the future, but you don't burn it all down over some gripes without a reasonable alternative. As it exists now it dictates certain terms that are unavoidable for everyone except maybe the US and China. Saying screw your rules is going to end up pretty badly as Italy has no alternative set up beyond "just go with it world", but that isn't what the world does.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Where did I state my own opinion is the unequivocal truth? Technocratic governments have their issues but so do the regular democratic ones. Tightening belts is almost unavoidable, how many not of the baby boomer generation can say they have a better life than their parents, got their own house as easy or earn more money while being more highly educated? Issue is is that the baby boomer generation has been living beyond their means, cashing checks that the average children per couple metric in the West can't compete with. Take the Netherlands for example, the older generations, 50+, are generally the wealthiest population group. Why should these people expect not to have to tighten their belts a little to not squeeze the next generation dry? This is an issue in most European states, the elderly relatively more wealthy population is using basic demographics to get out of democracy what they want, the future generation be damned. Italy's 5 star movement is having strong tendencies like that too. Its not just about business and upsetting the markets, its about not putting people through the absolutely devastating consequences of doubling the national debt on what are really fantastical policies.

Sure, we can argue about the reasons for economic decline. What we shouldn't do as most of these parties do is ignore the fundemental nature that it is relatively declining (as in the conditions for the average person). Clinging to past borrowed wealth and denying reform is necessary isn't the answer. The people in charge don't know all, but the issue is that they have become overly reliant on groups that are less interested in the future and more the here and now. Now that wouldn't be a bad thing if it weren't for the demographic and climate cliff on the horizon that is being adressed at glacial speeds.

I understand why people dislike the system, but electing these parties is cutting of your nose to spite your face. The issue is that a lot of complaints these people have about the current system is from the inherent unsustainability of it, it sucks, but that is what it is. But you don't prop up an unsustainable system by throwing even more money after it. We need to work on a reset and create a more robust social system, not desperately cling to every inch of the one we have, because who is going to pay for that once all the babyboomers retire?

I'm down with alternative points of views, what I'm not ok with is people walking away from personal responsibility after making a mess. The "end of history" is already outdated. The problem is that quite a few of the issues that need adressing today can't be adressed because that is how democracy functions. Personally I don't think the way the world economy functions now is sustainable in the future, but you don't burn it all down over some gripes without a reasonable alternative. As it exists now it dictates certain terms that are unavoidable for everyone except maybe the US and China. Saying screw your rules is going to end up pretty badly as Italy has no alternative set up beyond "just go with it world", but that isn't what the world does.

Those bold passages show something that I cannot understand about you personally for quite some time. Those are all perfectly valid points, probably the only ones we totally agree about - demography is a b%^tch, which cannot be reasoned with, to a point when as soon as you realise there is a demographic problem it is long past the moment when said problem could be solved and all EU countries are far past this point already, with US barely holding at the thin line of large enough birth rates. You also see how democracy is not a system of choice to resolve those issues and yet you seem to hope for "enlighted democratic" government/bodies to solve them.... I don't get that. As history shows, such fundamental systematic problems were usually resolved by individuals we would now label as "populists" - soft or hard dictatorships with or without some form of pseudo-democratic legitimacy.

You also focus on "evil" baby boomers a bit too much - they are not the source of the problem, they are a mere symptom. It was the first generation after IIWW which benefited fully from modern (post-penicilin) medicine, which combined with a "dent" in demography caused by both world wars totally screwed wealth and workplace inhertance. Add the Bismarckian pension systems, which were introduced before said penicilin and ever raising costs of modern healthcare and there you have it - a system that is not only unsustainable, but really an economic black hole in the making. Nobody, and this is without any exaggeration, has even a slightiest clue on how to approach/revert this problem without collapsing the whole system. This is why everyone just tries to "escape forward" even a tiniest bit, so they won't be the last ones to turn out the lights. Europe is particularily screwed here, as we don't have any aces up our sleves - we don't have huge population surplus like China or India and we are not an empire, so we cannot tax other countries enough as US does. This is also the reason why biggest economies (those few who can do so in unrestricted manner), escape into ever growing debt - when system collapses you don't want to have anything other than debts that will be erased by collapse. And this is what Italy wants to do also, because frankly, they have nothing else to do at this point.