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Possible spoilers for "A Thousand Sons" ahead, but I think most people already know the story.

So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use? I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

I don't know, maybe I'm trying too hard to make sense of a fictional universe, and I agree the Thousand Sons did not deserve to be slaughtered by the Wolves, but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

"It's complicated". The punishment they received wasn't necessarily befitting of the crime, but they weren't exactly innocent - anyone who is familiar with old school chaos lore will see that they are under the sway of Tzeentch from the very beginning of the book - the number 9 figures prominently for a reason, and even Magnus ritual to warm the Emperor has clear links to Chaos (pay attention to whats linked to the numbers 6,7, and 8). As for why Magnus didn't just take a ship, it's because it would have taken too long for the message to arrive.

They're not innocent at all unless you start ignoring things. Magnus wrecked a lot of important stuff, dealt with Chaos and had what was not unlike a tantrum about it.

Whether they deserved what actually happened is debatable but they definitely brought it on their own heads.

pm713 wrote:
They're not innocent at all unless you start ignoring things. Magnus wrecked a lot of important stuff, dealt with Chaos and had what was not unlike a tantrum about it.

Whether they deserved what actually happened is debatable but they definitely brought it on their own heads.

This.
Had Magnus not 'done a deal' with chaos the legion would have died from the flesh change (or been exterminated). But it was still giving Tzeench a foot in the door, and a bad move.
Had Magnus not used the ritual to try and send his warning, it wouldn't have arrived in time. But in reality it led to the Webway gate breach and it essentially cost the Emperor a clean victory by preventing the Custodian Guard and Ordo Sinister participating in the siege.

Tzeench did its level best to avoid giving Magnus any better options. But he did know he was doing wrong - especially using sorcery after Nikea

No, they didn't deserve to be destroyed but they were not innocent in any way shape or form. Magnus sold his soul to chaos during the beginning of the great crusade, because his legion was barely a legion, so many of them had gone through mutation and they couldn't fight, so Magnus bargained with chaos to save them. Throughout the crusade they used sorcery and were in league with daemons using them as familiars, even when they were told to stop using sorcery at the council of nikaea, they kept doing it, to the point of destroying the webway project, crippling the 10 thousand destroying the whispering tower and millions of people with the psychic back lash and as many going mad and making the Emperor having to sit on the golden throne, which he initially planned for Magnus to sit on and now its failing so mankind will be fethed, which they wouldn't have been if they had the webway.

Arcanis161 wrote:
So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

Telling the 1k sons to not use their powers is like telling the word bearers not to have faith, or telling the wolves they can't drink. Goes totally against the ethos and fighting style of the legion. I agree they should have toned it down a bit and been more cautious, but they didn't.

Arcanis161 wrote:
They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

100% agree. Arrogant and foolish.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use?

Yes. Because the news was so momentus that it shouldn't have mattered how Magnus delivered it. Magnus believed the very fate of the Imperium was at stake and he needed to warn the Emperor. He knew it wasn't allowed, and he knew he was probably going to get punished for it, but he was willing to take that punishment if it meant the emperor knew what was going on with Horus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

There was not enough time to travel all the way to Terra in person. There would also be a risk of interception. Remember, at this point, Magnus only knew that Horus had turned traitor and that an unknown number of legions had followed suit. He didn't know who to trust. For all he knew, his legion was the only loyalist one left. Sending a psychic message would be the fastest and most reliable way to contact the emperor, and he didn't care if he got executed for it, because the Imperium was more important.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

Because there was no reasoning with the wolves. Russ believed that Magnus had turned down his offer of surrender and wasn't going to come quietly, so he came into the system guns blazing and not asking questions. Let me put it to you this way, if a Navy Seal team burst into your house and started shooting everyone (men, women, and children alike), do you seriously think shouting at them that you give up and waving your arms above your head is going to do anything?

Magnus also knew that there was no way in hell he could convince his legion to lay down their arms and surrender peacefully. Their animosity toward the wolves was too strong. He knew they would fight even if he ordered them not to. So instead he masked the Space Wolf fleet from divination/sensors and deactivated the defense grid in order to lessen the Space Wolf casualties. He didn't want any more astartes to die over his mistakes then absolutely had to. And yes, he was having a pity party... Imagine accidentally destroying something your father worked over 1,000 years to create, and possibly even dooming the entire human race because of it. I'd be having a pity party too if I were Magnus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
...but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

Oh, definitely. But those mistakes that they made were entirely understandable... entirely human. They put spies in the other legions because they didn't trust them, they felt like the other legions considered them dangerous mutants and would turn on them at the first opportunity, and they were RIGHT. They pushed so hard into warpcraft because they didn't realize the true dangers behind the warp and the nature of chaos (remember, the emperor tried to pretend like the chaos gods didn't exist). They disregarded the warnings of others because they thought that they were simply the words of naysayers and philistines. They didn't want to give up using their powers after Nikaea because it would mean giving up everything that made them unique and gave their lives meaning. Imagine for a moment the emperor ordering Angron to never wield his axe again in combat and to go live on some dirtball backwater and become a farmer. The 1k sons lived for sorcery, BREATHED for it. Frankly the emperor should have known simply ordering them to stop wouldn't have done it.

Imagine if you will a young boy who is just a little bit different then his peers. Every day his peers sneer at him, bully him, call him a monster. Every day this boy drifts further and further away, distancing himself from others because he thinks everyone hates him, and purposely starts lashing out at even the people who are trying to help. Then one day he finally snaps and murders another boy in a fit of rage. Who is at fault? The peers who ostracized the boy for being a monster or the boy for proving them right?

Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

w1zard wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

Telling the 1k sons to not use their powers is like telling the word bearers not to have faith, or telling the wolves they can't drink. Goes totally against the ethos and fighting style of the legion. I agree they should have toned it down a bit and been more cautious, but they didn't.

Arcanis161 wrote:
They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

100% agree. Arrogant and foolish.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use?

Yes. Because the news was so momentus that it shouldn't have mattered how Magnus delivered it. Magnus believed the very fate of the Imperium was at stake and he needed to warn the Emperor. He knew it wasn't allowed, and he knew he was probably going to get punished for it, but he was willing to take that punishment if it meant the emperor knew what was going on with Horus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

There was not enough time to travel all the way to Terra in person. There would also be a risk of interception. Remember, at this point, Magnus only knew that Horus had turned traitor and that an unknown number of legions had followed suit. He didn't know who to trust. For all he knew, his legion was the only loyalist one left. Sending a psychic message would be the fastest and most reliable way to contact the emperor, and he didn't care if he got executed for it, because the Imperium was more important.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

Because there was no reasoning with the wolves. Russ believed that Magnus had turned down his offer of surrender and wasn't going to come quietly, so he came into the system guns blazing and not asking questions. Let me put it to you this way, if a Navy Seal team burst into your house and started shooting everyone (men, women, and children alike), do you seriously think shouting at them that you give up and waving your arms above your head is going to do anything?

Magnus also knew that there was no way in hell he could convince his legion to lay down their arms and surrender peacefully. Their animosity toward the wolves was too strong. He knew they would fight even if he ordered them not to. So instead he masked the Space Wolf fleet from divination/sensors and deactivated the defense grid in order to lessen the Space Wolf casualties. He didn't want any more astartes to die over his mistakes then absolutely had to. And yes, he was having a pity party... Imagine accidentally destroying something your father worked over 1,000 years to create, and possibly even dooming the entire human race because of it. I'd be having a pity party too if I were Magnus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
...but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

Oh, definitely. But those mistakes that they made were entirely understandable... entirely human. They put spies in the other legions because they didn't trust them, they felt like the other legions considered them dangerous mutants and would turn on them at the first opportunity, and they were RIGHT. They pushed so hard into warpcraft because they didn't realize the true dangers behind the warp and the nature of chaos (remember, the emperor tried to pretend like the chaos gods didn't exist). They disregarded the warnings of others because they thought that they were simply the words of naysayers and philistines. They didn't want to give up using their powers after Nikaea because it would mean giving up everything that made them unique and gave their lives meaning. Imagine for a moment the emperor ordering Angron to never wield his axe again in combat and to go live on some dirtball backwater and become a farmer. The 1k sons lived for sorcery, BREATHED for it. Frankly the emperor should have known simply ordering them to stop wouldn't have done it.

Imagine if you will a young boy who is just a little bit different then his peers. Every day his peers sneer at him, bully him, call him a monster. Every day this boy drifts further and further away, distancing himself from others because he thinks everyone hates him, and purposely starts lashing out at even the people who are trying to help. Then one day he finally snaps and murders another boy in a fit of rage. Who is at fault? The peers who ostracized the boy for being a monster or the boy for proving them right?

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

101% innocent. Pure white rabbit kind of innocent. Yup sir.

They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

They were told to stop using ALL psychic powers after Nikaea. Imagine the emperor telling Angron he couldn't use his axe ever again and that he had to become a farmer.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

This, right here 100%. To say they were "innocent" is wrong. They certainly did "bad" things and were arrogant and secretive. But they were utterly loyalist (as in loyal to the Imperium) right up until Prospero, and arguably didn't deserve what happened to them.

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

Innocent? God no!

But who in the Heresy is 'truly innicent'? Basically no one.

They were arrogant and doomed my Magnus' hubris. Tragic, but far from innocent.

The book Thousand Sons pretty much laid why they were never innocent, to begin with.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

They were told to stop using ALL psychic powers after Nikaea. Imagine the emperor telling Angron he couldn't use his axe ever again and that he had to become a farmer.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

This, right here 100%. To say they were "innocent" is wrong. They certainly did "bad" things and were arrogant and secretive. But they were utterly loyalist (as in loyal to the Imperium) right up until Prospero, and arguably didn't deserve what happened to them.

They weren't loyal, the broke pretty much every oath they made and it didn't take them long to turn to chaos. They obviously did deserve deserve censure, just not annihilation, they joined chaos well before the Horus Heresy, but it was Horus that did that,not the Imperium. they joined chaos well before the Horus Heresy. As for Russ, he was the executioner, so an order from the warmaster to kill a legion would not be unthinkable, he'd done it two times before and the warmaster had 'all' authority when it came to the great crusade, he would have followed the order. Thousand sons players are always painting Russ out to be a bad guy because of that but Magnus himself said that Russ didn't want to do it.

Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

pm713 wrote:
It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

Russ never talked to Magnus before, he talked to Horus through the spy Kasper Hawser, thinking that he was talking to Magnus.
The emperor, knew his mistake doing that, he told Magnus that 'you can never do a deal with the forces of the great ocean with losing something of yourself' So he isn't a hypocrite, he was just more experienced. If someone commits a crime and didn't think it was illegal and goes to jail it isn't exactly hypocrisy for him to tell his son not to do the same thing because you'll get banged up, and even if that wasn't the case, so what he's the Emperor of 'mankind' he can do anything and tell others not to, its do what I say not what I do, as with all emperors. You also have to remember, the emperor was not their father, he made them to fulfil a purpose, he never saw them as sons, people always moan about the emperor and how callous he can be etc. boo hoo, he exists to save humanity, not be a father to needy Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Horus absolutely told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

pm713 wrote:
It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

Didnt Magnus pretty much kill himself to get to Terra. Russ for being the not barbarian, GW like making him out to be. It will prolly turn out to be Magnus was doing recovering from his golden thread to Terra thing, cause warp time.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Horus absolutely told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Maybe but he didnt tell Valedor. Who told Russ to do the same thing.

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

But Russ talked to some dude who he thought was a tk1 spy. So its alright.
As it is by the time the end comes around. Russ has already stolen Sangys moment. So much they write voids the rest.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

I didn't say he did.

For one he hardly warned him. He said you lose something which is how a trade works. A warning would be "The entities in the Warp are extremely clever and cunning. They'll offer you something you want but after a few years you'll lose everything."

Angron had all his family/friends killed because of the Emperor, Mortarion was made into a failure by the Emperor just upstaging him and general mistreatment and neglect.

So why is he so bad at it? He caused the civil war that crippled the Imperium forever by not bothering to interact with anyone or teach them about Chaos, he planned to exterminate a lot of them and hurl them into an endless war with the Eldar, he chose to put humanity in constant warfare because they can't coexist with anyone else due to his rule and he's on the Throne entirely because of his own actions. He could have avoided it so easily but he didn't.

scratches chin.
That quote you quoted you said he did try and talk. So you did say it.
He didnt go in guns blazing because he was let in.
Mr Im more complex than what everyone thinks. Isnt. Hes a dumb, easily lead pos.
Or hes just hiding the wolfen.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

I didn't say he did.

For one he hardly warned him. He said you lose something which is how a trade works. A warning would be "The entities in the Warp are extremely clever and cunning. They'll offer you something you want but after a few years you'll lose everything."

Angron had all his family/friends killed because of the Emperor, Mortarion was made into a failure by the Emperor just upstaging him and general mistreatment and neglect.

So why is he so bad at it? He caused the civil war that crippled the Imperium forever by not bothering to interact with anyone or teach them about Chaos, he planned to exterminate a lot of them and hurl them into an endless war with the Eldar, he chose to put humanity in constant warfare because they can't coexist with anyone else due to his rule and he's on the Throne entirely because of his own actions. He could have avoided it so easily but he didn't.

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

Ah the turn on the SM is as rushed as drokk. You might notice its only come out lately.
When the Emp cant see beyond sitting on the throne. They saw a fan theory and went with it.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

No he didn't, Tzeentch is not omnipotent, lots of his schemes fail. The only one that see's the whole future is Kairos, Tzeentch can't even see the future as clearly as Kairos. Tzeentch also has no control of the followers of the other gods, the other gods obviously through a monkey wrench in his plans.

He schemes against himself. He can't possibly not fail.

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Valdor hated Magnus' guts, because when Magnus broke the webway project a lot of Custodes died holding off the daemons from getting into the Imperial Palace. For his part, I think Valdor genuinely believed Horus when Horus said he was speaking on behalf of the emperor when he ordered Russ to kill Magnus. Both Valdor and Russ hated Magnus so much that they didn't even question it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

The emperor told Magnus to stop messing around with warp magic and sorcery while still doing it himself. Magnus saw it as hypocrisy that the emperor told everyone they couldn't use psychic powers or explore sorcery when the emperor was doing sorcery experiments and mucking about with warp magic in the Imperial Palace itself. The emperor's ruling at Nikaea was very much a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing. In fact I think the emperor basically said something along the lines of "nobody else seems to be able to handle the responsibility of psychic powers except for me, Magnus is proof of that. So from now on nobody is allowed to use these powers except for me."

Magnus and the 1k Sons also didn't understand that the chaos gods or daemons were a thing. They thought that daemons were "warp beasts" and that they were simply entities that lived in the warp. They were completely oblivious to the existence of the chaos gods because the emperor was still childishly pretending they didn't exist.