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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do?

First up, this is a genuine, non-trolling question. As a born and bred Scot. I know what my origin and that means to me.

But having lived in England for the thick end of 30 years, this is a question I’ve always felt needed to be asked. Not to challenge or put people down, but to explore and understand.

So, if you’re an English Dakkanaut, do chime in - and please don’t comment/berate/disagree politely with another poster without first offering up you’re own take.

I’m not expecting a homogenous view, just an interesting and informative read

   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






This is like asking what it means to be Scottish or Welsh, you'll get a different answer for every person in the room.

Why did you 'always feel like it was a question that needed to be asked'?

Are you suggesting the English don't have their own identity anymore?

For me, being English is categorised by a few things;

1. A healthy hatred of the French.
2. A healthy "competition" (hatred) with the Scottish and Welsh.
3. A 'stiff upper lip' mentality.
4. Never forget your manners, particularly with regards to queues.
5. A sense of pride of the achievements of the Nation.
6. An unwillingness to admit that our food is by far the most bland and boring of any country.

You'll notice the Monarchy mean little to me and I don't feel that they are relevant. Same with a particular religion.
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

What is to be English?

Be a walking culinary warcrime. Except Ramsay, may god bless him.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Always maintain that Europe is the best continent.
Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.
Always maintain that England is carrying the other British nations.
Always maintain the North is better than the South.
Always maintain that Yorkshire is the greatest County.
Always maintain East Yorkshire is the best third.
Always maintain Hull isn't as bad as people think.
Always maintain that people who don't live in my part of Hull are savages.

Always maintain the French deserve the hatred we give them.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







An anthropologist did a book called 'Watching the English'.

It's an absolutely great read, generally applauded, and has many, many insights into your question. Far, far too many to summarise here. Buy a copy

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/06/04 21:41:01



 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Please, please, please do not let this lead into a 'what does it mean to be American?' thread...

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Yes, it's a great book and worth noting that while it's specifically about the English, a lot of the observations can be generalised to the British as a whole.

Personally speaking I'm English born and bred, but I self-identify primarily as British. If a foreigner asks me if I'm English I say yes -- typically Americans and Japanese don't understand the distinction anyway.

This is part of the identity crisis facing the English. As the majority of the British Isles and effective Top Nation, the English identity was super-merged (If that is a word) in the British imperial identity during the days of Empire.

This of course is fading but while the devolved nations have their own national identities and assemblies, the English don't and have lost their Imperial identity and don't know how to identify themselves.

This is behind the vote for Brexit.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

I had this question at my exam last month ! And I was awarded a nice 7.5/20 (a really bad mark...)...
You writed English, do you mean English or British and you overlooked it (really want to know !) ?

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 godardc wrote:
I had this question at my exam last month ! And I was awarded a nice 7.5/20 (a really bad mark...)...
You writed English, do you mean English or British and you overlooked it (really want to know !) ?

May I enquire as to why a (presumably) French exam asked what it meant to be British.

Also, I believe he meant English: as a Scot he was asking what being English meant to us.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







 mrhappyface wrote:
Always maintain that Europe is the best continent.
Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.
Always maintain that England is carrying the other British nations.
Always maintain the North is better than the South.
Always maintain that Yorkshire is the greatest County.
Always maintain East Yorkshire is the best third.
Always maintain Hull isn't as bad as people think.
Always maintain that people who don't live in my part of Hull are savages.

Always maintain the French deserve the hatred we give them.



I see you have gotten confused what you meant is;
Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.
Always maintain that England is carrying the other British nations.
Always maintain the South is better than the North.
Always maintain that Somerset is the greatest County.
Always maintain that the levels is the best third.
Always maintain hills don't exist.
Always maintain that people who live in the North are savages.

Always maintain the French deserve the hatred we give them.
Always maintain that the Empire only existed because we wanted to eat food that wasn't boiled or roasted until the last nutrient was whimpering in fear.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Personally speaking I'm English born and bred, but I self-identify primarily as British. If a foreigner asks me if I'm English I say yes -- typically Americans and Japanese don't understand the distinction anyway.


Yes, I got yelled at for this just recently

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Most of my American co-workers call me British, and I'm from the Republic of Ireland. Watching the English is a very interesting book.

I would like to hear from more English people in this thread. When I lived in England for a couple of years I was surprised at how different we were from each other culturally, but there is a lot to admire in Englishness, along with the obvious chip-on-my-shoulder stuff

I really was struck by how in England, up to then anyway, people seemed to really trust in their institutions. Stuff like the NHS and the local councils, it seemed to be taken for granted by most people that they would be muddling along doing the right thing. I found that really charming and likeable.

   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Englishness could (mostly past tense) be best described as an understated confidence. The English do not fly the flag in the same way as mot other nationalities even those within the UK, with exception of the national pageants where we outdo anyone.

Furthermore we are not overly challenged when other nationalities fly their flags at our celebrations. Go to the Last Night of the Proms and you will see it being taken over with non English flags, particularly Australian. We are not challenged by that. Fly the St George Cross or Union flag at an Australian celebration is rather different though.

The understatement came from a quiet confidence in the nation state. Americans bleat about how they are the best, the English never did even when during the height of their hegemony.

The ideal is simple, if you know, you don't need to showboat.

Other sections of the English identity, have the opposite ideology. Go to a football match and you can find no shortage of vocal English supremacy, even when the truth is sadly lacking. Mostly its bound up in the class divide.

From both ends Englishness is unraveling, it has been discouraged for the most part in education in favour of multi-culturalism, and this applied specifically to Englishness as a political ploy, Scottishness and Welsh identity were given the opposite treatment. It was part of a divide and rule policy that has had lasting effect, both in terms or national unity and in public identity. What remains is due to a generation divide, those raised before the 90's still have the English identity, those after often have little to none. Some were even formally educated/indoctrinated into believing there was no such thing as an English culture.

As the identity has been lost to much of a generation, and further diluted there can be expected to be further large changes to the English cultural identity.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Another interesting thing is that non-white English people are a lot more likely to call themselves British. I.e. "Black British" rather than "Black English."

This confirms the idea that English is a white identity.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Another interesting thing is that non-white English people are a lot more likely to call themselves British. I.e. "Black British" rather than "Black English."
This confirms the idea that English is a white identity.


It confirms little of the sort. There is a wide gulf for instance between a black English and a black Scot. However calling oneself British rather than English was encouraged externally, it is also how identity appears on the census forms.
The black community is pre-dominantly anglicised, though a separate culture of Afro-Carribean is encouraged, and is also listed in the census in separation to Black British and Black African.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
6. An unwillingness to admit that our food is by far the most bland and boring of any country.

The Dutch give you a run for your money though. I think they're pretty hard to beat.
As I tend to say: if you want to know if a given country has good food, just try to see how many of their restaurants you can find in other countries. Everywhere I went to, I've seen French, Italian, Japanese, Thai, or Indian restaurants. But I don't think I've ever seen an English or Dutch restaurant in my life. I've seen Fish&Chips food trucks, and some English pubs (although Irish pubs are a lot more common), so I guess it could be worse.

More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Another interesting thing is that non-white English people are a lot more likely to call themselves British. I.e. "Black British" rather than "Black English."
This confirms the idea that English is a white identity.


It confirms little of the sort. There is a wide gulf for instance between a black English and a black Scot. However calling oneself British rather than English was encouraged externally, it is also how identity appears on the census forms.
The black community is pre-dominantly anglicised, though a separate culture of Afro-Carribean is encouraged, and is also listed in the census in separation to Black British and Black African.


We're discussing people's individual responses to an opinion survey, not what the census form says.

Hence you are wrong.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

fresus wrote:


More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too


Mostly true of course!

However that tea drinking Englishman will be quietly thinking of how nice it would be if your string of onions would get caught in your bicycle wheel and pulled you off and choke you, so you lie caught by the side of the road in your striped shirt and beret while the snails have revenge and crawl on your face and eat your garlic. Because of course you are not properly dressed without all those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Another interesting thing is that non-white English people are a lot more likely to call themselves British. I.e. "Black British" rather than "Black English."
This confirms the idea that English is a white identity.


It confirms little of the sort. There is a wide gulf for instance between a black English and a black Scot. However calling oneself British rather than English was encouraged externally, it is also how identity appears on the census forms.
The black community is pre-dominantly anglicised, though a separate culture of Afro-Carribean is encouraged, and is also listed in the census in separation to Black British and Black African.


We're discussing people's individual responses to an opinion survey, not what the census form says.
Hence you are wrong.


You have to look beyond the conditioning. "Are you English or British?" as a question has its own dynamic to it. It's a trigger response.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/05 08:10:18


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oxfordshire

fresus wrote:
More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too

That's infinitely more polite than the British stereotype of the French

I'm a military brat, so always considered myself British. I still do consider myself British. It was in my early teens when my family finally settled in England that everyone told me I was wrong and that I'm English. People still insist on telling me that I'm wrong and that I'm English. Funny old world isn't it.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Orlanth wrote:
However that tea drinking Englishman will be quietly thinking of how nice it would be if your string of onions would get caught in your bicycle wheel and pulled you off and choke you, so you lie caught by the side of the road in your striped shirt and beret while the snails have revenge and crawl on your face and eat your garlic. Because of course you are not properly dressed without all those things.

It happens all the time, because it's pretty hard to steer a bike while holding a baguette under the armpit, so we tend to drop our onions a lot.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Sorry, forgot the baguette. I dont have to live it as you do, so I miss small details like that.

Also nice to know you recognise that trying to fight off the snails is not an option.

Meanwhile, must take a break now, time to put the kettle on, again.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

I know wha Britain first thinks it is to be English haha


Jokes aside, it changes from place to place in the country, I’m welsh 2nd and British first, so looking at the English I see a mess of contradictions, I don’t thing the English really know what it is to be English anymore.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Formosa wrote:
I don’t thing the English really know what it is to be English anymore.


That was how it was intended. Divide and rule.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Kilkrazy wrote:

This is part of the identity crisis facing the English. As the majority of the British Isles and effective Top Nation, the English identity was super-merged (If that is a word) in the British imperial identity during the days of Empire.

This of course is fading but while the devolved nations have their own national identities and assemblies, the English don't and have lost their Imperial identity and don't know how to identify themselves.

This is, I think, quite true. English people use the term British quite interchangeable with their own culture of 'Englishness' usually.


 
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







Thinking on the lack of Englishness and I wonder if school history might have something to do with it. I went to a school called King Alfred's, I studied history every year upto A level and in all that time we had two terms of 'British' history (one on female suffrage and one on the industrial revolution), we had at least three on the rise of the German Nazi party.
Similarly, every St. Patricks day people would be out partying whilst if you told most people it was St. George's day they would not have a clue. Compounding that this week was the Queens Birthday and I got a day off work for it and you don't in England. The Irish and Scots get their saints days off as well whilst the English don't (do the Welsh?).

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Ketara wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:

This is part of the identity crisis facing the English. As the majority of the British Isles and effective Top Nation, the English identity was super-merged (If that is a word) in the British imperial identity during the days of Empire.

This of course is fading but while the devolved nations have their own national identities and assemblies, the English don't and have lost their Imperial identity and don't know how to identify themselves.

This is, I think, quite true. English people use the term British quite interchangeable with their own culture of 'Englishness' usually.


This is the main issue, and one that really needs to be confronted.

Scots and, to an extent, the Welsh tended to see "British" as being something above individual national identity, which for a long time we were trained to view as backwards, parochial, and crass(or at least, see our own national identities that way), but the thing is that's never really been how the English and the English establishment especially looked at things. Britishness was simply Greater Englishness, Englishness Plus, a kind of Englishness that the non-English were permitted, with appropriate deference, to aspire to, in the same way that Britain itself was always in truth the English Empire and the rest of us were merely supposed to be glad to be ruled by it and to be permitted to contribute to it and conform to its norms and values.

This is very much historical stuff, by the way, before anyone gets bunched up. I'm not asserting that modern English people are all still patronising colonialists. However, the residue of those old attitudes and assumptions are still there because England has been reticent to confront the loss of empire, Britain's declining global influence in general, and the resurgence of non-British identities outside of England. That's been compounded by the way "Englishness" has often been seized on by the "blood and soil" types as a way to differentiate themselves from the right-wing establishment parties who tend to profess Britishness, which leads a lot of people to recoil from the distinction even though, in truth, there isn't actually much of a distinction outside of the minds of the people who want there to be one for whatever reason(the "post-national" aspect often appeals to immigrants, or it did prior to the present mess, and there are still plenty of Scots and Welsh who fully buy in to the idea that non-British nationalisms are automatically bad things and that British nationalism is somehow not really a nationalism at all) - there is just Englishness, and Englishness that non-English people participate in on varying degrees of sufferance.

Northern Ireland is a whole thing of its own, of course.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I think there's a lot in the theory around education. For example during WW2 there was more or less complete acceptance that the British (i.e. English) Empire was a good thing, and nowadays there is a lot more critical appraisal, for example of Britain's role in the slace trade.

It's also a matter of general communication and multiculturalism.

50 years ago olive oil was only available in chemist shops "for external application". Foreign holidays were expensive and exotic -- in France!
No internet, only two TV channels.
No devolved government in Scotland and so on.

It's difficult to internalise how much has changed.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Yodhrin wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:

This is part of the identity crisis facing the English. As the majority of the British Isles and effective Top Nation, the English identity was super-merged (If that is a word) in the British imperial identity during the days of Empire.

This of course is fading but while the devolved nations have their own national identities and assemblies, the English don't and have lost their Imperial identity and don't know how to identify themselves.

This is, I think, quite true. English people use the term British quite interchangeable with their own culture of 'Englishness' usually.


This is the main issue, and one that really needs to be confronted.

Scots and, to an extent, the Welsh tended to see "British" as being something above individual national identity, which for a long time we were trained to view as backwards, parochial, and crass(or at least, see our own national identities that way), but the thing is that's never really been how the English and the English establishment especially looked at things. Britishness was simply Greater Englishness, Englishness Plus, a kind of Englishness that the non-English were permitted, with appropriate deference, to aspire to, in the same way that Britain itself was always in truth the English Empire and the rest of us were merely supposed to be glad to be ruled by it and to be permitted to contribute to it and conform to its norms and values.

This is very much historical stuff, by the way, before anyone gets bunched up. I'm not asserting that modern English people are all still patronising colonialists. However, the residue of those old attitudes and assumptions are still there because England has been reticent to confront the loss of empire, Britain's declining global influence in general, and the resurgence of non-British identities outside of England. That's been compounded by the way "Englishness" has often been seized on by the "blood and soil" types as a way to differentiate themselves from the right-wing establishment parties who tend to profess Britishness, which leads a lot of people to recoil from the distinction even though, in truth, there isn't actually much of a distinction outside of the minds of the people who want there to be one for whatever reason(the "post-national" aspect often appeals to immigrants, or it did prior to the present mess, and there are still plenty of Scots and Welsh who fully buy in to the idea that non-British nationalisms are automatically bad things and that British nationalism is somehow not really a nationalism at all) - there is just Englishness, and Englishness that non-English people participate in on varying degrees of sufferance.

Northern Ireland is a whole thing of its own, of course.



Yep I can see where your coming from, here in Wales we see English national pride as the home of racists and bigots, it’s not true of course but that identity has taken a hard knock as it’s been appropriated by the far right, England for the English, and they see the entire UK as England.

I can’t speak for Scotland but welsh nationalism is celebrated here, and there is still a lot of bitterness over the murder of Owain Glyndŵr and the welsh monarchy by the English and England continued control over Wales, but that’s tempered by the fact that we realise we are all part of the UK and it mostly manifests as a light digging and taking the piss out of the English, though admittedly there were some terrorist attacks against the English in the 60’s/70’s IIRC.

Long story short it’s a big bag of cats and somehow we all get along for the most part.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Well... until this thread I didn't even know english and british weren't the same thing.

I supose the relation between english=british is similar (Not in the motivations but in the result) as how the Spanish identity was constructed from andalusian+castillian from Franco, and Galician, Vasques and Catalans were left out as second-clash spanish people. So when you think about Spanish, you think about a mix of andalusian+castillian, and they themselves identify them as spanish and nothing else.
Just like Yodhrin said, I believe.

EDIT: And as formosa said, galician, catalan and vasque "nationalism" is in general seen as a good thing, but "spanish" nationalism is normally the umbrella for fascist and post-franquists, and many people believes they have basically kidnaped (Myself included) the "spanish" identity for their own political agenda, for the detriment of all of the country. Is actually funny how similar the situations are.
Of course, the catalonian crisis hasn't helped with this.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/05 13:24:50


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

fresus wrote:

More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too


That's one end of the spectrum. The other is... what GW based Orks on.

I'm somewhere in the middle...
   
 
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