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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So when the new edition came out, they said that templates were going away. This made sense as they were trying to simply the game by removing templates and the need for a scatter dice. But why do they keep releasing new units with random variance guns? The new Armiger for example has two oversized autocannons but still rolls 2d3 shots per gun. Why not just make them 4 shots a piece? You still need to hit and wound, why add another random dice roll in there especially since it is supposed to be a direct fire weapon.

The same for the Castellen, two big guns, one of which can shoot anywhere from 2 shots to 12. I understand why this gun is variable shots though, they are supposed to be representative of a plasma large blast template but why the huge variance? The issue with guns with "templates" like these is not the average number of shots, but the variance of those shots.

Games Workshop needs consistency for the number of shots a gun has. If it is a direct fire weapon like an autocannon or heavy bolter then it has a set number of shots. If it is representative of a blast weapon then it has a variable number of shots but instead of using D6's, D3's need to be used more to reduce that wide variance. Just my 2c.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Because if it's random it's balanced.

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Lord of the Fleet






This is a bit of a return to second edition and the sustained fire dice.

I agree that they need to think more about the distribution of number of shots (really swing weapons should be the exception rather than the norm) but I don't think they have that good of a grasp of statistics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/07 15:42:20


 
   
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To make you spend CP when your big gun rolls poorly.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Because it was worth removing the satisfaction of getting a direct hit on a scatter dice with the meh feeling of rolling a 3.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





The randomness means there's more chances for memorable "spikes" of luck. Somewhere, someone has shot 6 shots with a Doomsday Ark and put through 36 damage on their opponent's Baneblade. There's also the days where you're lucky to get 6 shots off in a whole game. GW wants people to talk about that moments where "X did Y"! I know, for me, I'll always remember Mortarion tanking shots from 3 Doomsday Arks for 2 turns because "lolz, dice, amirite?"

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Random shots for rapid fire weapons is just kind of a trope across the industry. On top of that you have spray templates, whose auto hitting nature makes it more of a different kind of accuracy check then a real sense of random shots.

The blasts are just kind of the third strike that makes it feel like there's just too many of these kind of things. The problem is they're mechanically identical to the feel of the rapid fire style guns and don't have anything that makes them feel like a "blast". This is probably the one I'd most like to see changed, but I'm not sure exactly how.
   
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Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Losing access to more hits vs larger units was a big blow. Having the weapons be unreliable on top of that was just contempt for the player base.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Cuz rolling dice is fun and engaging, thinks GW.

It never ends well 
   
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Sister Oh-So Repentia



Illinois

The fewer random elements, the more "solvable" a game is - random dice rolls are a good way to vary the power of something so that you can't math out exactly how it will perform.

It's arguable whether that's good design or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/07 20:25:38


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 Scott-S6 wrote:
This is a bit of a return to second edition and the sustained fire dice.

I agree that they need to think more about the distribution of number of shots (really swing weapons should be the exception rather than the norm) but I don't think they have that good of a grasp of statistics.


I don't think it's that they don't understand statistics, I think it's that rolling a d6 and taking what it says as your result is one of the simplest things you can do in game based on d6s, and they probably decided that while the distribution isnt great for a lot of weapons that was acceptable to keep it simple.

You might disagree with that conclusion of course, but to say they don't understand elementary statistics is a little unfair. Seems like more of a cost-benefit analysis situation.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





They are meant to emulate Blast Templates. Sometimes they do a lot, sometimes they do not.

The problem is that Blast templates would only hit a character once, but the new system hits characters quite a bit more.

What I would rather see is the lowering of the number of shots, then giving all former blast weapons the ability to increase the number of shots fired for every 5 models in the squad.

   
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Templates went away so people wouldn't have to place templates anymore. Simple as that. Games Workshop isn't troubled that their dice game has inherent randomness.
   
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Bounding Assault Marine




United Kingdom

Randomness makes things more interesting and fun, and It makes you spend those precious command points.

Templates were a horrid way of doing things and I for one am glad that they have gone away. I can appreciate that some may feel that randomness takes a way from the skill vs skill style of competitive play but adding a random element, as I say above, makes the game more interesting and varied.

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Krazed Killa Kan






Hamfisted translation of blast to dice only shooting but GW has no clue how math works and said feth it to trying to have former blast weapons have any sort of interaction with model count, model density in an area, or even accounting for the fact that BS was not in linear relation with the results of scatter dice which made blast weapons functional for armies with garbage accuracy while not overly reliable for armies with high accuracy. Blast weapons where time consuming but they provided an interesting and useful mechanic to the game that was effective against areas of high enemy concentration. Now it's just another point and shoot weapon but with less reliability and generally terrible balance.

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Stux wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
This is a bit of a return to second edition and the sustained fire dice.

I agree that they need to think more about the distribution of number of shots (really swing weapons should be the exception rather than the norm) but I don't think they have that good of a grasp of statistics.


I don't think it's that they don't understand statistics, I think it's that rolling a d6 and taking what it says as your result is one of the simplest things you can do in game based on d6s, and they probably decided that while the distribution isnt great for a lot of weapons that was acceptable to keep it simple.

You might disagree with that conclusion of course, but to say they don't understand elementary statistics is a little unfair. Seems like more of a cost-benefit analysis situation.

We've seen incidents in the past where a more expensive weapon option was flat out inferior to a cheaper one and the designers have actually tried to argue that it wasn't.

Or look at 7th where a small tweak to the vehicle damage table rendered all of the traditional anti tank weapons obsolete - it should have been obvious that if penetrating a vehicle with a high AP weapon only kills it 1/3 or 1/6 times then glancing or penetrating with low AP weapons that come with multiple shots and cost less is just flat out superior. That one was a total bonehead move.

Plenty of people on here think that the average tells you everything you need to know and fail to understand the importance of the distribution.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/07 22:55:30


 
   
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Morphing Obliterator




The Void

It is annoying because blast weapons and templates were not just random. Templates were not random at all. They were very reliable, but their effectiveness was dependent on unit placement. You had the contest of you trying to maneuver into getting a lot of models under it, and your opponent trying to deny you good shots. This was a great element that made the game more interesting.

Blasts had that element, but also some randomness. Against hordes, they were reliably devastating even with bad scatter rolls. Against elites they had higher variance, but made up for it in that they were generally strong weapons like battle cannons.

This new system has totally lost the tactical element, and has made a ton of weapons simply unreliable. d6 is just too random to the point that games can swing based purely on if you rolled a 1 or 6. There's already enough randomness in 40k without adding this. And now positioning barely matters at all!

I get that many people found the whole scatter system tedious, but they could have helped fix that without going this far. We could have kept templates and blasts so that model density still mattered, and just removed the scatter. Have it so your number of shots = number of models under the blast, but you still need to roll to hit. This way there'd still be randomness to it similar to scatter, but without the tediousness of resolving a scattered template.

Having d6 damage variance on stuff like lascannon damage is also a huge pain. 3+d3 would be the correct amount of randomness, or d6 minimum 3 or 4. The full d6 is just too much!

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Grade A snobbery, guys.

Show of hands for who else has the top selling table top game? Anyone?

 Vankraken wrote:
Hamfisted translation of blast to dice only shooting but GW has no clue how math works and said feth it to trying to have former blast weapons have any sort of interaction with model count


They actually do have those.

model density in an area


That would be a ridiculously obnoxious mechanic - especially without a template.

or even accounting for the fact that BS was not in linear relation with the results of scatter dice which made blast weapons functional for armies with garbage accuracy while not overly reliable for armies with high accuracy


7 - 4 = 3
7 - 2 = 5

5 inches puts you so far off target most of the time. 3 has a chance to clip. The only equalizer was 1/3 to straight up hit.
   
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Morphing Obliterator




The Void

"GW has good sales so everything they do is great"

Yeah okay bro.

They actually do have those.


Yes, but they don't have enough of them. Which makes it more annoying. They show that they know it's a thing that matters, and then don't apply it to the more common former blast weapons.

That would be a ridiculously obnoxious mechanic - especially without a template.


Yeah. That's why templates were a good solution.

5 inches puts you so far off target most of the time. 3 has a chance to clip. The only equalizer was 1/3 to straight up hit.


Yes, and? It equalized enough to matter.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Blast templates were terrible. Having to tediously space your troops exactly 2 inches apart and form conga lines around cover as a result so you dont lose 10 guys to a single large blast or flamer was obnoxious (having been on the giving and receiving end). Plus not to mention leaning over the board to see how many models are under a template if its in the middle of the table and debating with your opponent on how many get hit.

Oh and not to mention determining the exact scatter direction when the scatter die isnt near the template

I dont think the translation to XD6 shots is ideal, but its better than before.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 02:15:09


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Billagio wrote:
Blast templates were terrible. Having to tediously space your troops exactly 2 inches apart and form conga lines around cover as a result so you dont lose 10 guys to a single large blast or flamer was obnoxious (having been on the giving and receiving end). Plus not to mention leaning over the board to see how many models are under a template if its in the middle of the table and debating with your opponent on how many get hit.

Oh and not to mention determining the exact scatter direction when the scatter die isnt near the template

I dont think the translation to XD6 shots is ideal, but its better than before.




I played for years in 4th-6th with several groups (easily 30 regular opponents) and then many randoms. I can count the amount of people that were bothered by blasts/templates on one hand. Now most of those people don't even play anymore. Many considered coming back for 8th, but were turned off by dumb rules like random numbers of shots. I have found new groups of people who didn't play much in previous editions, and even they think its dumb.

Scatter dice can be a bit annoying, but I just don't buy that this was a huge deal to that many people. I'd much rather have a better system that makes me work a bit harder than a worse one.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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The Void

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.


Well, the not being able to hit more than once was one of the problems that made them really bad.

Also, a flamer could not hit 10 models. Like, ever. It tended to average around 4, 8 for packed groups. Large Blasts can get like 3 or 4. Small blasts were basically single shots. Every once in a while you could get 5 hits off a deepstriking unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 03:14:12


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.


Well, the not being able to hit more than once was one of the problems that made them really bad.

Also, a flamer could not hit 10 models. Like, ever. It tended to average around 4, 8 for packed groups. Large Blasts can get like 3 or 4. Small blasts were basically single shots.


But they weren't bad?

And yes they could hit that many tightly packed, base to base models. Of course nobody willingly blobbed up for it, but they could be forced into it by terrain, disembark, 5th ed Lash of Submission, etc. The positioning mattered, which is the whole point.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.


Well, the not being able to hit more than once was one of the problems that made them really bad.

Also, a flamer could not hit 10 models. Like, ever. It tended to average around 4, 8 for packed groups. Large Blasts can get like 3 or 4. Small blasts were basically single shots.


But they weren't bad?

And yes they could hit that many tightly packed, base to base models. Of course nobody willingly blobbed up for it, but they could be forced into it by terrain, disembark, 5th ed Lash of Submission, etc. The positioning mattered, which is the whole point.


I'm an Imperial Guardsman and a Sister of Battle. You know what? Yes, they were pretty bad. Effective against 0 targets of value. It was pretty must useful for the fact that it was an easy way to overcome s**** IG ballistic skill, since between the template's size and the native base size of something like a Riptide, it's hard to miss.

My tank gun can do a maximum of 1 damage to anything at a time. That's 1/6 of a monster. Okay, so maybe the tanks aren't for targeting monsters, and are for targeting infantry. There aren't that many infantry targets with a lot of models, and 90% of the time they're either arrayed in a line, or arrayed in a grid, spaced 2" apart. The only time you can put 5" Earthshaker Cannon blast down and get more than like 4-5 hits is against units arriving from deep strike... which for the most part don't come in squads over 5.


The enemy not only has to stand base to base, they have to make concentric rings of dudes for the tank cannon to hit. Guys were almost never base to base anyway, except when manning battlements and things like tideline walls, and when they are, they're strung out in a line.


Mind you, a Leman Russ Cannon used to hit about 5 times against a squad, wound on 2's, and kill outright. Now it gets about 7 shots, hits with 4, wounds with 3, and kills 2, which is pretty underwhelming from what it used to be. It's the swingy-ness that really hurts, Templates were reliable but fairly weak, now they're unreliable but a little stronger.


If I were to do it, I'd keep the green disk, and just do away with the scatter die. Roll to hit, if you do, resolve a hit against everyone under the blast. If you're under the center of the blast, take d3 hits, 3+d3 for 5" blasts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 03:33:52


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.


Well, the not being able to hit more than once was one of the problems that made them really bad.

Also, a flamer could not hit 10 models. Like, ever. It tended to average around 4, 8 for packed groups. Large Blasts can get like 3 or 4. Small blasts were basically single shots.


But they weren't bad?

And yes they could hit that many tightly packed, base to base models. Of course nobody willingly blobbed up for it, but they could be forced into it by terrain, disembark, 5th ed Lash of Submission, etc. The positioning mattered, which is the whole point.


I'm an Imperial Guardsman and a Sister of Battle. You know what? Yes, they were pretty bad. Effective against 0 targets of value. It was pretty must useful for the fact that it was an easy way to overcome s**** IG ballistic skill, since between the template's size and the native base size of something like a Riptide, it's hard to miss.

My tank gun can do a maximum of 1 damage to anything at a time. That's 1/6 of a monster. Okay, so maybe the tanks aren't for targeting monsters, and are for targeting infantry. There aren't that many infantry targets with a lot of models, and 90% of the time they're either arrayed in a line, or arrayed in a grid, spaced 2" apart. The only time you can put 5" Earthshaker Cannon blast down and get more than like 4-5 hits is against units arriving from deep strike... which for the most part don't come in squads over 5.


The enemy not only has to stand base to base, they have to make concentric rings of dudes for the tank cannon to hit. Guys were almost never base to base anyway, except when manning battlements and things like tideline walls, and when they are, they're strung out in a line.


I can see how as a sisters/guard player you wouldn't need anti horde as badly as marines do, but as for the rest, it totally doesn't match with any of the scenes or metas I've played in in 4th-6th. Did you not have any ork or nid players nearby? Or IG blobs?

Regardless of our locale scenes, the lack of proper anti horde weapons is currently breaking 8th pretty badly. And it's almost entirely because blast/template weapons no longer fulfill the role, and doubled or tripled in price. We need them back.

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Id argue that for the time frame youre talking about Orks and Nids wernt exactly the best armies, and a large part of that was because of blast weapons obliterating your army as it moves across the board by turn 3 unless you space your stuff out obnoxiously

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 03:41:00


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
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The random shots represents the blast effect.

The exception is the Exorcist launcher,and a few Ork guns, which have always fired a random number of shots to simulate the fact that they're highly unreliable.

I think the 2d3 shots for the Predator [and 4d3 for the Helverin] Autocannons are supposed to indicate that, since they're bigger guns than the average autocannon that an IG infantryman is hauling around, they have a bit of a blast.


The multiple shots mechanic represents the blast well enough [in theory] for 2 reasons. One, they hit a few of the guys in a squad representing the fact that it bursts over their heads [or on the ground] showing them with shrapnel, and two, against a single target, they do a bunch of damage to represent something like a Battle Cannon shell penetrating, exploding, and doing this:


Unfortunately, it overlaps with unreliable weapons like the Exorcist, and feels very unsatisfying to play with.


I don't have much complaints about the Predator autocannon. It gained shots on average and got a lot more powerful. And since it's 2d3 instead of 1d6, it's more reliable.

But 1d6 just doesn't represent previous blast/template weapons. A Flamer template could hit ~10 tightly packed models. A large blast could hit ~15. And none of them could hit a single model more than once. They could have been represented well with 1d6+3 hits, but no more hits than models in the enemy squads for templates. Small blasts could be 1d3+3. Large blasts could be 1d6+6. High strength weapons like battlecannons could get bonuses to wound or damage vs monsters and vehicles to represent the old style +2d6 armor pen if the blast is centered on a vehicle.

It is so easy for it to parallel the old system and get rid of templates/blast measurement. They didn't even try.


Well, the not being able to hit more than once was one of the problems that made them really bad.

Also, a flamer could not hit 10 models. Like, ever. It tended to average around 4, 8 for packed groups. Large Blasts can get like 3 or 4. Small blasts were basically single shots.


But they weren't bad?

And yes they could hit that many tightly packed, base to base models. Of course nobody willingly blobbed up for it, but they could be forced into it by terrain, disembark, 5th ed Lash of Submission, etc. The positioning mattered, which is the whole point.


I'm an Imperial Guardsman and a Sister of Battle. You know what? Yes, they were pretty bad. Effective against 0 targets of value. It was pretty must useful for the fact that it was an easy way to overcome s**** IG ballistic skill, since between the template's size and the native base size of something like a Riptide, it's hard to miss.

My tank gun can do a maximum of 1 damage to anything at a time. That's 1/6 of a monster. Okay, so maybe the tanks aren't for targeting monsters, and are for targeting infantry. There aren't that many infantry targets with a lot of models, and 90% of the time they're either arrayed in a line, or arrayed in a grid, spaced 2" apart. The only time you can put 5" Earthshaker Cannon blast down and get more than like 4-5 hits is against units arriving from deep strike... which for the most part don't come in squads over 5.


The enemy not only has to stand base to base, they have to make concentric rings of dudes for the tank cannon to hit. Guys were almost never base to base anyway, except when manning battlements and things like tideline walls, and when they are, they're strung out in a line.


I can see how as a sisters/guard player you wouldn't need anti horde as badly as marines do, but as for the rest, it totally doesn't match with any of the scenes or metas I've played in in 4th-6th. Did you not have any ork or nid players nearby? Or IG blobs?

Regardless of our locale scenes, the lack of proper anti horde weapons is currently breaking 8th pretty badly. And it's almost entirely because blast/template weapons no longer fulfill the role, and doubled or tripled in price. We need them back.


Yeah. My most common opponents were Tau, Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons [and Space Marines. Space Marines are everywhere].

I am also a Space Wolves player. Honestly? No, blast templates were not my go to means for clearing away 'gaunts and boyz. They weren't effective, because 3" blasts are too small to hit more than one model [especially once the SM's moved to large bases]. Only 5" blasts were of any value, and let's just say Whirlwinds and Vindicators weren't exactly the greatest thing ever invented. With a good native ballistic skill, there was never a use for a Frag missile, really.

Anyway, yeah, I agree the swingy nature makes the random shots pretty bad, and it's super underwhelming to fire, and it's not awesome. But it's not like the guns were that good beforehand.

 Billagio wrote:
Id aregue that for the timeframe youre talking about Orks and Nids wernt exactly the best armies, and a large part of that was because of blast weapons obliterating your army as it moves across the board by turn 3 unless you space your stuff out obnoxiously


Spacing your stuff out obnoxiously was, and is, the word of the day. You hack off a piece of plastic 1.83" long [so it's not accidentally over 2"], and just drop it between your guys.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 03:46:40


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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I like that lascannons and such may only do 1 wound. Sure you think it should vaporize the dude, but maybe it only hit the Combat Recon Array on that vehicle or took off the Colonels arm. He still lives to issue orders.

I do think that you should pick a model (los or not) then every model within 2 inches you roll to hit as well. (UP TO A MAX limit for each type of gun)

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
 
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