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Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






Yes I am about to moan about moaning, but anyone sick of hearing people moaning about 8th's rules. GW have just changed the game completely, totally changed their whole business model, are doing the best they've ever done to make the game good and its only been a few months since 8th was released. I'm always first to moan about GW when they do something stupid and I hate people that think they can do no wrong, but I think everyone needs to chill out and give GW a little time to get the game where it should be.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Its certainly an improvement IMO, but my biggest gripe about 7th was the rerolls after rerolls, with extra rerolls for certain armies. Playing against Eldar? Just skip all rolling, it didnt even matter at that point.

8th hasnt exactly changed that...

Imagine if the dice rolls were actually important the first time?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 04:56:03


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






8th edition has been out for one week less than a year at this point, not "a few months". It has been more than long enough to see the obvious and major flaws in the rules, and GW doesn't get extra credit for trying really hard. The results of all their hard work are still trash, and the superficial changes they are making are nowhere near enough to address the problems.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Peregrine wrote:
8th edition has been out for one week less than a year at this point, not "a few months". It has been more than long enough to see the obvious and major flaws in the rules, and GW doesn't get extra credit for trying really hard. The results of all their hard work are still trash, and the superficial changes they are making are nowhere near enough to address the problems.


Superficial changes, is better than no changes. It'll take lots of small changes to sort it out, they can't just constantly change the whole game system.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
8th edition has been out for one week less than a year at this point, not "a few months". It has been more than long enough to see the obvious and major flaws in the rules, and GW doesn't get extra credit for trying really hard. The results of all their hard work are still trash, and the superficial changes they are making are nowhere near enough to address the problems.


Rule of 3, boots on ground, and tactical reserves are superficial? Smite spam fix is superficial?

   
Made in vn
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





My partner always moans when we play 40k if you know what i mean! Ey ey ey? Nobody? Okay... I'll shut up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Its certainly an improvement IMO, but my biggest gripe about 7th was the rerolls after rerolls, with extra rerolls for certain armies. Playing against Eldar? Just skip all rolling, it didnt even matter at that point.

8th hasnt exactly changed that...

Imagine if the dice rolls were actually important the first time?


I play shooty Orks. We have almost no rerolls and almost every dice is a 1/3 chance of being a success. I know how important dice can be when i fight gullfaceman and he hits on 2s rerolling 1s.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 05:39:24


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus




GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






meleti wrote:
GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.


Ah yes, the classic "UR NEVER HAPPY" attempt to dismiss legitimate criticism and pretend that we're all just negative for the sake of being unhappy.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




meleti wrote:
GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.


Yes, everyone who has issues with their practices is merely complaining to complain....
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rule of 3, boots on ground, and tactical reserves are superficial? Smite spam fix is superficial?


Yep, they really are superficial.

Rule of 3 is a half-assed attempt at fixing the problem. It eliminates particular spam elements but does nothing to address the fundamental issue with list construction: abandoning the classic FOC in favor of "take what you want" nonsense. And it doesn't even do a complete job of imposing the limit because similar units exist. For example, as an IG player I can take 9 LRBTs (in three squadrons for FOC purposes), 3 tank commanders, and Pask, and that's without even getting into FW units with names that are just different enough to count as a different unit. It was a positive step, of course, but GW took the very smallest step instead of a comprehensive overhaul.

Boots on ground is just reverting to an old rule, undoing something that never should have happened in the first place. Again, it's a positive change, but it was a very low-effort one.

The tactical reserves changes are, again, just a partial reversion to a previous (and superior) rule but they don't go anywhere near far enough. The change mitigates turn-1 alpha strikes and makes it so that deploying in reserve is no longer the automatic correct choice 100% of the time, but it still leaves zero-risk perfect-accuracy deep strike as part of the game. Using reserve rules is still nearly automatic because the option is too powerful and has too few drawbacks. GW could have done a more comprehensive overhaul of a bad mechanic, but instead they made a small change to fix only the most obvious abuse.

Smite fixes one problem but doesn't address the broken state of pyschic powers in general. Again, it was a very small change to one specific thing instead of addressing the question of why people were taking smite spam. And it does so with an awkward special-case ruling to make one specific power work differently from everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Superficial changes, is better than no changes.


Sure, in the same way that being shot once is better than being shot twice. GW failing a little less badly than they could be is not something that really deserves much praise, just like we don't praise a small child when they smear their all over the wall and call it "art".

It'll take lots of small changes to sort it out, they can't just constantly change the whole game system.


Of course they can change the whole game system. They did it with 8th edition, they can do it again. And they should have done it right with 8th edition. All they have to do is admit that they failed and that their product is terrible instead of insisting that FORGE A NARRATIVE BEER AND PRETZELS BEST MINIATURES EVER.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 06:11:51


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Peregrine wrote:
meleti wrote:
GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.


Ah yes, the classic "UR NEVER HAPPY" attempt to dismiss legitimate criticism and pretend that we're all just negative for the sake of being unhappy.


I am dismissing your unhappiness because it isn't warranted. 8th is far better than the cluster feth that was 7th with constant super friends and spamming lists and ridiculous formations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 06:34:03


 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
meleti wrote:
GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.


Ah yes, the classic "UR NEVER HAPPY" attempt to dismiss legitimate criticism and pretend that we're all just negative for the sake of being unhappy.


I am dismissing your unhappiness because it isn't warranted. 8th is far better than the cluster feth that was 7th with constant super friends and spamming lists and ridiculous formations.
Being kicked in the nads is better than being shot in the face with a navel battlecannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 06:40:02


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I am dismissing your unhappiness because it isn't warranted. 8th is far better than the cluster feth that was 7th with constant super friends and spamming lists and ridiculous formations.


No, 8th just has soup and spamming different lists. But go ahead, bury your head in the sand and pretend that GW is getting it right. Just ignore whatever you have to ignore, and call it unwarranted because you don't want to see flaws.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
meleti wrote:
GW could put a $100 bill into their starter box and people would complain that it wasn't folded properly.


Ah yes, the classic "UR NEVER HAPPY" attempt to dismiss legitimate criticism and pretend that we're all just negative for the sake of being unhappy.


I am dismissing your unhappiness because it isn't warranted. 8th is far better than the cluster feth that was 7th with constant super friends and spamming lists and ridiculous formations.
Being kicked in the nads is better than being shot in the face with a navel battlecannon.


You all think you can just change a rule perfectly and that's that. Changing a single rule can have all sorts of repercussions and they can't find that out just testing it at GW with team of testers, they have to do the best they can, release the new rules and wait for the community which has a much vaster sample and can find these problems with the rules. They attempted to fix the rules and it didn't work, at least now they are listening to our feedback and we can wait to see if it does get fixed. They probably tried to fix these rules with as little impact so as not to feth everything up, which was probably the wrong move. Its easy being wise in retrospect after the fact.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Warbiker




London UK

Its definitely no longer too soon to moan about it. The key is that GW do everything towards a profit EXCEPT that you could argue the rule of 3. That is clearly a rule that doesn't directly feed their profit but indirectly maybe.

I think the rule of 3 was a knee jerk reaction to fixing a problem they encountered when they turned up to tournament play and should have been better but I respect them for doing it. I am genuinely happy that they are trying to do a better job. I am still unhappy that the job they are doing is not enough to meet my expectations.

All of our expectations however are probably different.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Nithaniel wrote:
Its definitely no longer too soon to moan about it. The key is that GW do everything towards a profit EXCEPT that you could argue the rule of 3. That is clearly a rule that doesn't directly feed their profit but indirectly maybe.

I think the rule of 3 was a knee jerk reaction to fixing a problem they encountered when they turned up to tournament play and should have been better but I respect them for doing it. I am genuinely happy that they are trying to do a better job. I am still unhappy that the job they are doing is not enough to meet my expectations.

All of our expectations however are probably different.


We'll its unprecedented, we've always been stuck with the rules in previous editions, so maybe it is too soon or it isn't. None of us know what process' they take to write, test and publish rules. So I concede its maybe not too soon if you concede that maybe it is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/09 08:41:23


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

There's a difference between moaning and constructive feedback and opinions.

A lot of people moan in a very general way "this rule sucks" and they repeat that over and over. The problem is for some people that's as far as their thinking goes so there's no detail or context - you have to either agree or disagree based upon your own judgement. So it ends up a horrible mess of complainers and anti complainers all arguing from very different viewpoints which - generally - results in the argument being all about egos with a general very negative feel and atmosphere to the community.




Instead what's BETTER is "this rule isn't as good as it could be - here are my detailed reasons why". Followed up with either suggestions on how it could be fixed or an invitation for others to give their viewpoint.

The key is to approach things from a neutral to positive angle and build from there with detailed constructive posts. Those take time though and as time passes many a constructive thread gives birth to the "thus rule sucks (I'm not repeating myself for the 50th time and writing an essay)" threads.


The other point is getting the vibe or theme of the rules; there are lot of people who just flat out say the entire rules system is wrong; which honestly says more about the person than the rules. It's to say that (in most cases) the person simply wants a different style of game to what is being produced. Nothing wrong in that, but it doesn't mean that the rules system itself is flawed from the ground up - just that the rules and person don't get along. This is not to say that rules systems can't be flawed at key points of course; just that suggesting that GW has got it wrong and the entire system needs a change is a big ask that might not get the flavour of what's being aimed at anyway.








I would also say that detailed constructive informative and impartial feedback to rules has more chance of being positive received by GW with its current attitude toward the market. Ranting, arguing and putting down the writers won't (heck you'd hate it if someone said it about what you'd spend months/years working on).
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Let’s be clear here.

7th core rules and 8th core rules are both as gak as each other, anyone that thinks otherwise is just buying into the PR crap GW spouts,

Where the problems mainly came from was..... codex creep and codexs in general, and guess what people.... the exact thing is happening again.

It won’t be too long before 8th starts getting special detachments for themed armies too, that grant a special rule and more CP... mark my words.

Long story short 8th is the polished turd to 7ths turd, both are still turds.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 Formosa wrote:

Long story short 8th is the polished turd to 7ths turd, both are still turds.



See the problem here is that the language you've chosen to use is not informative nor impartial but emotive and insulting. By the choice of words alone you've moved outside of critique and commentary on the rules into a more general attack. Thing is when someone who enjoys playing 8th edition reads this they instantly disagree and fight back. Even if they agre that there are flaws with the rules they disagree that "its a turd".

Plus any GW staffer who got a comment like that would, eh, ignore it and not pay any mind.

Your viewpoint expresses your emotional and personal view, but invites no means nor grounds to debate nor discuss the matter, but is more an open invitation for a fight about it.








Basically repeat posts like that are what creates the negative attitude that some, like the OP, is more posting about rather than inviting discussion and increasing the depth and detail of said discussions.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Overread wrote:
There's a difference between moaning and constructive feedback and opinions.

A lot of people moan in a very general way "this rule sucks" and they repeat that over and over. The problem is for some people that's as far as their thinking goes so there's no detail or context - you have to either agree or disagree based upon your own judgement. So it ends up a horrible mess of complainers and anti complainers all arguing from very different viewpoints which - generally - results in the argument being all about egos with a general very negative feel and atmosphere to the community.




Instead what's BETTER is "this rule isn't as good as it could be - here are my detailed reasons why". Followed up with either suggestions on how it could be fixed or an invitation for others to give their viewpoint.

The key is to approach things from a neutral to positive angle and build from there with detailed constructive posts. Those take time though and as time passes many a constructive thread gives birth to the "thus rule sucks (I'm not repeating myself for the 50th time and writing an essay)" threads.


The other point is getting the vibe or theme of the rules; there are lot of people who just flat out say the entire rules system is wrong; which honestly says more about the person than the rules. It's to say that (in most cases) the person simply wants a different style of game to what is being produced. Nothing wrong in that, but it doesn't mean that the rules system itself is flawed from the ground up - just that the rules and person don't get along. This is not to say that rules systems can't be flawed at key points of course; just that suggesting that GW has got it wrong and the entire system needs a change is a big ask that might not get the flavour of what's being aimed at anyway.








I would also say that detailed constructive informative and impartial feedback to rules has more chance of being positive received by GW with its current attitude toward the market. Ranting, arguing and putting down the writers won't (heck you'd hate it if someone said it about what you'd spend months/years working on).


Well you can constructively complain, but my point is that they are at least doing something about it, they are trying to get every codex out, bringing out new models etc. I think once they release all the codex's we will see more positive changes, but still I don't think a year is a long time, look at chapter approved, its not like they spent a week on that and sent it out, then the FAQ, they are doing something about the rules people are just moaning because they aren't doing it fast enough and some armies are suffering at the moment. They don't have the resources to test the game as well as the community can. I would suggest that GW use the community to test rules, have them say 'see if this works, if it doesn't give us your feedback.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 09:06:32


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Nithaniel wrote:
Its definitely no longer too soon to moan about it. The key is that GW do everything towards a profit EXCEPT that you could argue the rule of 3. That is clearly a rule that doesn't directly feed their profit but indirectly maybe.

I think the rule of 3 was a knee jerk reaction to fixing a problem they encountered when they turned up to tournament play and should have been better but I respect them for doing it. I am genuinely happy that they are trying to do a better job. I am still unhappy that the job they are doing is not enough to meet my expectations.

All of our expectations however are probably different.


We'll its unprecedented, we've always been stuck with the rules in previous editions, so maybe it is too soon or it isn't. None of us know what process' they take to write, test and publish rules. So I concede its maybe not too soon if you concede that maybe it is.



Not quite, I’m sure you remember hearing about or encountered good old 3rd editions way of fixing rules, chapter approved, back then they would release FAQs and rules in white dwarf and eventually it would make its way into a chapter approved compendium, similar but not the same as now, it’s how terminators got thier famous 5+ invulnerable save, it’s how we ended up with codex dark angels 2nd edition etc.

The did the best they could with the format they had, if the internet had been what it is now back then, then we would have a very similar situation as now, but with a rules team that was better and without the interference of the marketing team that came later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Long story short 8th is the polished turd to 7ths turd, both are still turds.



See the problem here is that the language you've chosen to use is not informative nor impartial but emotive and insulting. By the choice of words alone you've moved outside of critique and commentary on the rules into a more general attack. Thing is when someone who enjoys playing 8th edition reads this they instantly disagree and fight back. Even if they agre that there are flaws with the rules they disagree that "its a turd".

Plus any GW staffer who got a comment like that would, eh, ignore it and not pay any mind.

Your viewpoint expresses your emotional and personal view, but invites no means nor grounds to debate nor discuss the matter, but is more an open invitation for a fight about it.








Basically repeat posts like that are what creates the negative attitude that some, like the OP, is more posting about rather than inviting discussion and increasing the depth and detail of said discussions.


I have been purposefully vague as I’m assuming everyone knows the faults of both systems without having to go into a point by point analysis, which would take much longer, it’s not emotive it’s dismissive and blasé.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 09:09:30


   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Formosa wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Nithaniel wrote:
Its definitely no longer too soon to moan about it. The key is that GW do everything towards a profit EXCEPT that you could argue the rule of 3. That is clearly a rule that doesn't directly feed their profit but indirectly maybe.

I think the rule of 3 was a knee jerk reaction to fixing a problem they encountered when they turned up to tournament play and should have been better but I respect them for doing it. I am genuinely happy that they are trying to do a better job. I am still unhappy that the job they are doing is not enough to meet my expectations.

All of our expectations however are probably different.


We'll its unprecedented, we've always been stuck with the rules in previous editions, so maybe it is too soon or it isn't. None of us know what process' they take to write, test and publish rules. So I concede its maybe not too soon if you concede that maybe it is.



Not quite, I’m sure you remember hearing about or encountered good old 3rd editions way of fixing rules, chapter approved, back then they would release FAQs and rules in white dwarf and eventually it would make its way into a chapter approved compendium, similar but not the same as now, it’s how terminators got thier famous 5+ invulnerable save, it’s how we ended up with codex dark angels 2nd edition etc.

The did the best they could with the format they had, if the internet had been what it is now back then, then we would have a very similar situation as now, but with a rules team that was better and without the interference of the marketing team that came later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 Formosa wrote:

Long story short 8th is the polished turd to 7ths turd, both are still turds.



See the problem here is that the language you've chosen to use is not informative nor impartial but emotive and insulting. By the choice of words alone you've moved outside of critique and commentary on the rules into a more general attack. Thing is when someone who enjoys playing 8th edition reads this they instantly disagree and fight back. Even if they agre that there are flaws with the rules they disagree that "its a turd".

Plus any GW staffer who got a comment like that would, eh, ignore it and not pay any mind.

Your viewpoint expresses your emotional and personal view, but invites no means nor grounds to debate nor discuss the matter, but is more an open invitation for a fight about it.








Basically repeat posts like that are what creates the negative attitude that some, like the OP, is more posting about rather than inviting discussion and increasing the depth and detail of said discussions.


I have been purposefully vague as I’m assuming everyone knows the faults of both systems without having to go into a point by point analysis, which would take much longer, it’s not emotive it’s dismissive and blasé.


I'll concede to that,
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

I think it's also worth remembering that this isn't some cheap game where you can download the rules for a tiny fee. This is a game where you're expected to fork out about £80 just for the rules. I think it's reasonable for people to expect high-quality rules for that sort of price.

Instead, I get a rulebook that looks like something I downloaded for free. In fact, it looks like a free version of a game - like I just downloaded the lite version of Kings of War.

I mean, this is the 8th edition of this game. GW isn't a rookie company, they've been going for at least 30 years now. This is the 8th iteration of this game and yet it still seems like a step backwards from 5th edition.

I mean, the Assault weapon rule is literally nonfunctional if played as written (this was true when the rules first came out and has never been corrected). When one is expected to pay ~£50 for a rulebook, I think one can reasonably expect the rules to work as written - without needing to try and work out what the designers meant.

But I guess it doesn't matter, since GW knows by know that half their fanbase will murder the other half if they point out all the mistakes and stupidity in their rules.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ro
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Lisbon, Portugal

Every edition will have people complaining about this and that. If you're sick of seeing them doing it, I'd advise you to avoid entering their threads

40k Dark Angels and future 30k Thousand Sons

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

Ignoring the issue of if the moaning is justified, and focusing on the “too soon”

40k editions have historically had about a 4 year lifespan. 8th has been out about a year. It has has a few rules clean-up passes, and the bulk of the codexes released. At this point I no longer think it’s in the honeymoon new edition phase. They have had a chance to patch it (and have in places) and also had a chance to show if they’ve changed their stripes with things like codex creep. I think if people want to complain they can. We’ve had time to wait and see what happens.

Personally I’ve got a lot of mixed feelings. I like 8th. It’s not perfect, but no edition has been. 40k has always been a horribly flawed mess of a game. If you want to break it, you can. Often badly and easily. But I think GW is making a lot of improvements, and generally headed in the right direction.

I still want to slap them sometimes, mostly for marketing-driven things.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 12.5K+ Slowly growing 2Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






The game is much improved in terms of playing in my opinion.

GW doesn't seem to be massively different though.

New model focus is still heavily skewed towards Imperium first, Chaos second and Xenos last by a large margin.

They are promoting themselves much better and reacting to rules problems/queries far better than they have in the past so I suppose that's different.

Until I see more support for the Xenos armies that need it though GW will be the same old as far as I'm concerned.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






 Vector Strike wrote:
Every edition will have people complaining about this and that. If you're sick of seeing them doing it, I'd advise you to avoid entering their threads


You'd have to be aware of them in order to avoid them.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

''The game has improved'' means in my terms ''the game is now more a board game''.
Less maneuvering than before.

Moreover, the character of the game has changed.
Now we see more deep strikers 9'' away from the enemy.
GW has mitigated deep striking shifting it to 2nd turn.
Nevertheless, the former game has lived from approaching the enemy.
Now you are more under pressure as the enemy might arrive early in the game.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in fr
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France

Moaning for the sake of moaning is useless and damageful. But OP, your thread looks like "please folks shut your mouths you should never ever complain". Maybe it's just that you expressed your thoughts a but confusly, but that's how it feels.

I agree witht the idea that a rule change has extrem repercussions on all others because they then modify the interection with many others and can see some combos and exploits become outright cheesy. In a game with so many (to many to me) armies such as 40k, this makes it impossible to manage.

However, I'm sure people do not complain because of that. They re aware that it isn't a piece of cake. But they also feel like GW is mocking them because they never adress the two main problems: codex creep and cheesy spams. If you look any thread on 40k, from any period, it's all the same: 5th mecha was said overpowered... 6th was the realm of stupid flyers and the codex creep was said to be real. 7th got not inly units but entire formations that were overly pimped and unbalanced, and so were the armies. The difference in 7th is that the rule overbloat definitly broke the camel's back.

Now I firmly believe that when 8th was announced, claiming they would change the entire system and start from the very ground again with a thorough revamp, poeple believed they would finally get rid of what had been poisoning the game so far. And so far, it hasn't: the rules have been toned down, which has made the game lose a lot of it's gameplay and strategy but makes it more fluid and easy, so you could say that it's objectively a 50-50: rule bloat is limitated at the expense of depth.
Apart from that, the codex creep hasn't changed an inch, and ht egame is still as easy to break. A lot of moaners must be disapointed in an edition that from their point of view that I would tend to push forward, 8th is objectively a failure because it didn't patch the ongoing issues. The accusations are not lying in design itself, but on how uneffective it seems when tackling what we want to get rid of.

It is maybe what sir Peregrine calls partial measures: the look of the game has changed, but at the core, it's pretty much the same, and although they modifyed the rules, they only shifted, displaced the problems instead of fixing them, just as the caring around the game, for many, might evoke half measures more than an actual interest and actual efforts put in the gam's health.

What is sure however: it is not too soon to think about it. A year, with it's tournaments and patches, is enough to try and judge the game based on facts and observation.

There are certainly haters who complaine to troll, but I really want to make clear that even if some poeple will love the edition, poeple moaning most probably have reasons to and that there shouldn't be such thing as stop criticising. Whilst it is stupid when they just go for a "feth that gakky gak of a ruleset that sucks", most have at least one element to bring on.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard
Bolte Action: Germany/ USA
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Made in ie
Calm Celestian





People were declaring the game awful and dead like 3 months into the new edition and it will continue for the rest of 8th. When 9th comes out people will start declaring THAT the worst edition ever and holding up 8th as a great edition. And so the cycle will continue.

   
 
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