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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hello all. Asking for your help here. I'm trying to decide what to flesh out next. I have been running a heavy EDT/MT list with lots of plasma drops. However its day seems to have past. Between the increase in points cost for plasma, rule of 3, and Turn 1 deep strike restrictions it just doesn't get the bang for its buck like it used to. (Might just be my meta which has a very heavy focus on 3++ saves and heavy mechanized forces).

I had planned on switch to a mech guard force featuring Leman Russes, Hellhounds, and Vultures. Then the new knight codex drop and I was blown away by the Armiger Warglaive changes. Dropping around 60 points from its previous cost and adding mini-"stomp" profile to its melee weapon made it much much more viable then I had anticipated. Add In some quite useful house "doctrines" and relics, so now I have been tinkering with a force focused more on fielding a horde of these new walkers supported by the new Knight-Preceptor.

Lets break down the Pros. I will be comparing vs the LR Conqueror which imho is the best of the LR variants.

Armiger Warglaive

Pros:
Faster 14" movement
5++ Invul vs shooting
3+ WS/BS
Excellent Melee with either 4 str 12 -3 D3, or 8 str 6 -2 D1
High damage long range melta.
Reroll hits in melee with (Krast)
Reroll 1s to hit with Knight-Preceptor
Relic to boost BS/WS +1 vs a Target.

Leman Russ Conquerer

Pros:
1 Point Higher Toughness
Better Main gun. 48" Range vs 30". Average 7 shots (9 with Catchan) vs Average 2, Reroll Hits within 24"(30" Vostryn) Less Ap -2 vs -4 and DD3 vs DD6
Cheaper 9 points base.
Access to great IG stratagems. (+1 BS cadian/Vostrian)
Objective secured in spearhead.
More CP (Armiger deny access to Super-heavy detachment CP unless 3 full-sized knights with them)

Both of them have lots of good points. Ill list some of the key issues.
1. Armigers while being good in melee still lose to dedicated elite melee units as they have only their +3 armor save in melee and Thunderhammers and equivalents make short work of that. And they need to get in melee to make the best use of them.
2. The 1 Toughness of the LR is a big deal. There are a multitude of S7/8 weapons out there and the LR toughness 8 reduces their effectiveness by 33%/25%. That being said the 5++ invul save of the Armiger rates better vs weapon with an AP -4 or S9+ Ap -3 (I think). (My math has a Plasma doing slightly better vs an Armiger doing .89 damage per hit vs .83 damage against an LR. Melta does better vs LR doing 1.75 damage per hit and 1.55 vs the Armiger) at range.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I believe they do fundamentally different things and work in different kinds of armies. Personally, I believe Warglaives are best used agaisnt the opponent vehicles, shoting your melta before charging them, and walkers, or big meele units like dark eldar Thalos, you don't want them agaisnt a horde, even with his second profile.

I haven't used my Warglaive, but I'm planning to use it as an auxiliary of my Adeptus Custodes force. When I try it I'll share my impresions with you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 19:17:46


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Imo if you are using warglaives you should keep them together as if they are a unit. There are a number of stratagems that revolve around them staying together. I agree that a single AWG isn't a big threat to horde units, but 3 sure is.

World Eaters ~a bunch now
Hive Fleet Anphellion ~ 10k
Imperial Knights ~3k  
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






If one isn't a threat to hordes, then three aren't either. One armiger equates to around 40 cultists (for example), so three equates to 120. Good luck getting through that with three armigers!

Fully Painted Armies: 1600pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons

And here are my blood angels tanks. They have big white eagles on them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424022.page  
   
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Member of the Malleus




 DoomMouse wrote:
If one isn't a threat to hordes, then three aren't either. One armiger equates to around 40 cultists (for example), so three equates to 120. Good luck getting through that with three armigers!


It’s almost like these are very different units with very different roles!
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

My personal opinion is that Warglaives are pretty useless: they should have been the cheaper knights used to fill out detachments, with just enough damage output/staying power that they weren't a tax unit. As they are, a single Warglaive is basically a worse Contemptor dreadnought with less variety and any more than one Warglaive is a waste since you could just get a bigger Knight.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

 mrhappyface wrote:
My personal opinion is that Warglaives are pretty useless: they should have been the cheaper knights used to fill out detachments, with just enough damage output/staying power that they weren't a tax unit. As they are, a single Warglaive is basically a worse Contemptor dreadnought with less variety and any more than one Warglaive is a waste since you could just get a bigger Knight.

Agreed. They just seem like slightly larger, more expensive dreadnoughts with way worse weapons. I'd take a leviathan over a warglaive any day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 22:52:56


My hobby blog, weekly updates hopefully http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641714.page#7702117
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 
   
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




At least with Armigers you can take up to 3 of them and not pay either an HQ tax or a CP penalty.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
At least with Armigers you can take up to 3 of them and not pay either an HQ tax or a CP penalty.

Or just take 3 Leman Russes +30pt HQ tax and get +1CP and Obsec on your tanks (not to mention regimental doctrines). Or take 3 LR and a Command Tank for all that plus orders.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

Armigers covers some things that guard traditionally suck at, mainly speed and cqc. Meanwhile more Russe's plays to guard strengths.

It's up to you to decide if you need to cover the weaknesses or double down on what you do best.

For what it's worth, I got 4 for cheap so I plan on giving them a try. Mainly plan to use them with Admech but I don't see them being bad with IG either. If Yu want to run Armigers, I would look at bringing IG vehicles that are T7 as well to mess with target priority. Especially hellhounds, I'd imagine they would work very well with warglaives as an aggressive element you slam forward, since between the hellhounds and the warglaives you cover most potential targets. Throw some infantry in chimeras behind them or have Stormtroopers meet them on the other side of the board could make for a fun list.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!


I don't think you are up to date on Warglaives my friend they are basically the same price as it now clocks in at 164 points. Comparing it to a Contemptor the Armiger has the same toughness 1 less str, Both have a x2 -3 for D3 but the Armiger now has a 2nd profile that doubles its attacks to 8 but only S -2 D1. The Contemptor's invul save works in melee which does make it better and it has a higher BS/WS by 1. Its mult-imelta is strictly worse however as the Armiger's Themal Lance has 6" longer range and d3 shots and is Assault not Heavy. Its also 33% faster then a Contemptor.

Arguable who has the better Doctrine as the salamander is one is amazing for Contemptors.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!

Put their stat lines side by side, an Armiger is identical to a SM Dreadnought except for speed and weapons.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!

Put their stat lines side by side, an Armiger is identical to a SM Dreadnought except for speed and weapons.

SJ

Except a regular dreadnought is much cheaper, a Contemptor is in a similar price range.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!

Put their stat lines side by side, an Armiger is identical to a SM Dreadnought except for speed and weapons.

SJ

Except a regular dreadnought is much cheaper, a Contemptor is in a similar price range.

What part of faster and better weapon doesn’t mean “should cost more”? What part of cost should mean “use the wrong stat line”?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Armigers are fast Dreadnoughts, which is exactly what we get with their stats. Not sure why people think they are different or are suppose to be different. The Warglaive is exactly like a SM Dreadnought, only faster, with more range, a better melee weapon, and an Invul save. The Helverin is a Mortis Dreadnought that is faster, with more range, have an invul, etc.

SJ

It's faster, I'll give you that but the Warglaives are more comparable to Contemptors than regular dreadnoughts, which mean they have varying range differences depending on weapons, their melee weapon is worse and their invul is worse and they're still more expensive!

Put their stat lines side by side, an Armiger is identical to a SM Dreadnought except for speed and weapons.

SJ

Except a regular dreadnought is much cheaper, a Contemptor is in a similar price range.

What part of faster and better weapon doesn’t mean “should cost more”? What part of cost should mean “use the wrong stat line”?

SJ

Because comparing an Armiger and a regular Dreadnought isn't fair due to the price disparity; the Armiger should be better than a regular Dread. A fairer comparison is between the Armiger and a Contemptor Dread due to their similar price tag and their similar roll; in that comparison a Contemptor is much better for the same number of points.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Dude, you have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m comparing statlines and you are comparing pricing. WtF?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Dude, you have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m comparing statlines and you are comparing pricing. WtF?

SJ

Let me try to simplify it for you:

We have three units all with semi-similar stat lines and the same function in the game; the Dreadnought, the Armiger and the Contemptor.

Now you say the Armiger is better than the Dreadnought because it has better movement, more wounds, an invul and better weapons, I can't fault you on that. However, I say that the Armiger should be better than a Dreadnought because it costs much more.

A far better comparison would be with the Contemptor since they cost the same amount (give or take) and have a similar statline.


You can compare statlines but you also need to look at the price of the unit, I don't understand how this concept is new to you.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus




Who cares about Contemptor Dreadnoughts? I mean really?

The better comparison for these guys in a Guard army are Shield Captains. Both have a combination of mobility, shooting, and assault that isn't really present in Guard. I'm not so sure Armigers surpass the Shield Captains here, but they're fun little guys.
   
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Mississippi

Should they have made Armigers takable as 1 in a Heavy slot or 1-3 in Superheavy slot? Would it have made any difference in their usability?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 05:42:42


It never ends well 
   
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 Stormonu wrote:
Should they have made Armigers takable as 1 in a Heavy slot or 1-3 in Superheavy slot? Would it have made any difference in their usability?

There's not a Knights HQ choice so if Armigers were Heavy Support, you couldn't actually field a detachment of them.
   
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Germany

meleti wrote:
Who cares about Contemptor Dreadnoughts? I mean really?


I would always choose three contemptor mortis dreads over two warglaives. 24 shots with twin autocannons, hitting on 2+, 48" range outperform 2D3 thermal lance shots hitting on 3+. The contemptors get chapter tactics as well, RG -1 to hit for example.

   
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

Buy the models you like the most. Simples.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
meleti wrote:
Who cares about Contemptor Dreadnoughts? I mean really?


I would always choose three contemptor mortis dreads over two warglaives. 24 shots with twin autocannons, hitting on 2+, 48" range outperform 2D3 thermal lance shots hitting on 3+. The contemptors get chapter tactics as well, RG -1 to hit for example.



I just meant Contemptor Dreadnoughts, which aren't exactly defining the competitive meta right now. But the same applies to Contemptor Mortis I suppose. Once people start taking Contemptor Mortis dreads in all their top table tournament lists I'll take notice. I really doubt that will ever happen, but I suppose anything's possible.

Anyway, back to what the OP is requesting, you aren't splashing Contemptor Mortis dreads into a Guard army. Or Contemptors, really. Space Marine HQs being fairly expensive glorified tax doesn't help in this regard. But you are taking Shield Captains, so they're the comparison you should be making for Armiger Warglaives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 10:03:07


 
   
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 mrhappyface wrote:

Now you say the Armiger is better than the Dreadnought because it has better movement, more wounds, an invul and better weapons, I can't fault you on that. However, I say that the Armiger should be better than a Dreadnought because it costs much more.


A Dreadnought clocks in at 117-177pts, an Armiger is 164-187pts. For that you get...

- The Armiger is a better CC platform due to its blinding speed and its dual profile.
- Has a 5++ invuln.
- No penalty to move and shoot, very nice.
- 50% more wounds than a dread.
- Weapons is personal taste, but Armiger does mixed threat better, D3 dakka better, while Dread does ranged AT better, probably.
- The dread generates CP in a detachment, which is a big deal actually, and the biggest weakness of the Armiger.

The Armiger is much better than a basicbitch dreadnought, and costs only a little more if any - in fact a top of the line Warglaive and Dreadnought cost exactly the same - 177pts...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 09:06:43


 
   
Made in us
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How did this get from from comparing against Leman Russes to Dreadnoughts and Shield captains lol.

mrhappyface I think you are being very disingenuous in your comparison of a Contemptor to a Wargliave. To sum it up the Dread as +1/+1 BS and WS, +1 ST. The Armigar is faster, more wounds, better gun, more versatile in melee. To be honest the +1 ST bonus of the Contemptor only matters vs T7 models and while the Improved WS/BS is nice I'm not sure it makes up for all the other advantages the Armigar has.

p5freak. Going to have to disagree here. Also its not a real fair comparison the Mortis would be must more comparable to the Armiger Helrevin then the Warglaive. The Mortis is great for clearing infantry but does diddly vs harder targets where as the Wargliave is pretty versatile against both in the new codex which is why I'm taking a 2nd look at it.

Also I think yall are missing the reason I was comparing LRs to Armigers. They are "Spamable" you can take up to 9 of each variant. Contemptors and shield captains are limited to 3.

Now comparing the Shield Captain to the Warglaive. Hmm. This one is a tough call. The shield captain has I think the lead in dealing with Swarms of infantry but I think the Armigar is much better vs harder targets. Durability wise The Shield captains probably have the advantage with their 3++ relics other wise I think the edge goes to the Armigers.

   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Buy the models you like the most. Simples.


Nah we come here to win and get angry!

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

I'd be hard pressed to say a melta weapon is better than a kheres assault cannon hitting on 2s. Not to mention a mortis with 4 lascannons or 4 autocannons is pretty good against tough targets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 16:48:26


My hobby blog, weekly updates hopefully http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641714.page#7702117
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'd be hard pressed to say a melta weapon is better than a kheres assault cannon hitting on 2s. Not to mention a mortis with 4 lascannons or 4 autocannons is pretty good against tough targets.


Sigh. Okay lets compare the 2. A contemptor with Kheres and DCC vs an Armiger warglaive. Now The advantage of the contemptor is its higher BS/WS right? The problem is that its weapons are heavy and only 24". So its going to be moving which means it has the heavy -1 to hit most of the time making them the same BS as the Armiger's weapon is assault. Now vs infantry in a shooting battle the edge goes the Contemptor with its 6 shots...usually. vs multiwound models with better armor save the edge swings actually back to the thermal lance. Vs vehicles with exception of Quantum shielded ones the armiger trimuphs In melee the Armiger wins or ties vs everything with the exception of T7 models. And do to the Armiger superior speed its more likely to get both ranged attacks and melee attacks in the same round.

Now a Quadlascannon mortis is deadlier to vehicles (and 25% more expensive) and a Double kheres is deadlier to infantry (And 8 points cheaper) However they still run into the fact your limited to 3 total of them(Cause I believe even if you use BA, SW, and SM versions they still use the same datasheet) and can't *switch-hit* so to speak.
   
 
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