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So me and my friends are doing a 'Tale of Gamers' thing, where each of us starts up a new army and plays games against each other in escalating points values. I decided to go Imperial Fists, with an emphasis on heavyweight footsloggers and avoiding single wound models (primarily going Primaris, though I won't turn my nose up at other options), and my one friend went with Imperial Knights. And I can't for the life of me figure out how I'm supposed to beat them, especially now that they have their buffs with the new codex. They move faster than the majority of my army (or at least as fast), they out-shoot me, they out-melee me, and I need to deal at least 13 wounds against no less than T8 3+/5++ for my offense to even matter. Given the hole I've dug for myself with my model selection, I'm probably just going to concede every game against this player without even setting up unless I can find some kind of magic bullet.

What kind of counters exist within the Space Marines Codex against knights? I was thinking as many dreadnoughts as points would allow in a combination of shooty venerables (Twin LC/Twin AC) and stompy ironclads, but with their movement of 6" I fear they just won't cut it.

This is my biggest beef with IK - games tend to get very binary quickly. What I would deploy would be three quad Las preds or three quad Las devastators. Add roboute for hit and wound rerolls and you are pumping out something like 20 wounds per round.
Alternatively take some anti tank from FW.
But ultimately the pure IK matchup is a check how much firepower you have and if you can roll first turn.

Edit: spelling

I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

Everything that can hold a lascannon or an hellblaster plasma. Thunder hammers are also an option, but need rerolls to hit absolutely.
And a chapter tactics that actually does something. Like ravenguard for -1, or ultramarine for enabling guilliman.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

That's only because you aren't cool enough to play Space Wolves.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

If supported by Chalpain and Lieutenant, it still requires 13 men to relatively reliably (~64%) chances to kill an IK. If you lowered the requirement, just to severely cripple the Knight instead of killing it outrught. 10 Space Marine Veteran / Terminators are still required.

Have you started painting your Imperial Fists? Because there are much better options for a Primaris-based force...

Firstly, Ravenguard, if you want to stay codex SM. -1 to hit is very nice, but just as important is strike from the shadows. Primaris are damn hard to move around, and a number of their units really benefit from this strat, first and foremost aggressors.

Secondly, Blood Angels. Worth mentioning as Primaris are pretty handy in BA lists, as they carry a much improved CC threat. Plus your hammer-caps (see below) are terrifying.

Lastly, Deathwatch. In a lot of ways the DW codex was a straight up patch for Primaris marines. Their bolters were buffed through the roof. They can mix squads, protecting valuable models behind intercessors. They have a great, cheap chaptermaster and a very handy set of buffs. They can deepstrike, solving one of Primaris marines' biggest issues.

Regardles of whether you go IF, RG, BA or DW, I'd recommend you use a lot of hellblasters, a Dev squad, and a couple of jumppack captains with a hammer to spend alllll your CP on.

Unfortunately VVETS while lovely models their 8th edition stats aren't realy that great.
A Captain with TH SS can be backed up by VV but your still going to have overwatch to weather. But for the love of god don't try and use predators as a stand up match for a knight they are pitifully poor. Your best shoping for Contemptor Mortis Dreads, Deredeo, and Leviathans. The Leviathan is probably one of the few things that can go HH with a knight and expect to survive.

At what points level are you playing? If knights are in an auxiliary support detachment they don't get house traits and can only access relics/Warlord traits by spending CP.

The cheapest knight super heavy detachment you can field is 3 armiger warglaves at 492points. But they only have 12 wounds a piece, are T7 so easier to wound, and can't fallback and shoot. This will let the knight player take a relic and warlord trait for free (but most of the relics are weapons that the armigers can't take). However, it's worth noting that knight super heavy detachments only get 3 addition CP if they contain at least 3 dominus/questoris class knights. This means any pure knight list will at most have 3 CP bellow 1062 points and 6CP between 1062-2124 points.

Knights suffer against volumes of S5-6 shooting, heavy bolters and assault cannons. It's also worth remembering that bolters and primaris bolters with AP-1, especially with captain and lieutenant buffs will chip away at the big knights and do reasonable damage to the T7 small knights (also don't forget Krak grenades). Obviously more specialised weapons like melta and lascanons though unreliable can really ruin a knights day. Then there's melee, knights don't get their invulnerable save in melee so it makes them very vulnerable to things like thunder hammers.

Finally, the biggest weakness of knights is their inability to play the mission, they have no objective secure, low model count, and have a small footprint so struggle when it comes to area control. They also can't move through ruin walls like infantry making them a lot slower than they appear on paper on a board with any reasonable amount of terrain. The bane of knights is a squad hiding behind a ruin sitting on an objective that they can't see, knights only have one ignore line of sight weapon. When placing objectives be mindful of this, I'd also recommend spreading objectives out). This is exasebated in dynamic scoring mission where a lot of the time knights have to choose between playing the mission and destroying stuff.

TLDR: You don't need to kill knights just cripple them (as it massively affects their mobility), maneuver around terrain (remember infantry can teleport through ruin walls knights can't) this makes knights slow, use line of sight blocking terrain (as knights only have one weapon that ignores line of sight), play the mission (knights don't have enough models to control 4-6 objectives and don't have objective secure).

Hope that helps.

All you need to do is take lots of Lascannons and fire them often. Lots of tall, line of sight blocking terrain helps too.

And get a pair of big boy pants.

SJ

So far I’ve tabled knights with my crimson fists every time I’ve played against them. To be fair, this was before the codex came out. Things might be a little different now!

I’ve got three things that are good at killing knights: a lot of lascannons, 19 rapid fire hellblasters and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance relic.

The captain is an absolute monster, and a steal at 106 points. I give him the Emperor’s Sword warlord trait. If you’ve got a lieutenant and librarian around he can do up to 21 wounds on the charge, and then another 21 if you use Honour the Chapter or Only in Death…

It’s really great to have this model hanging around in my lines. The knights will tend to approach marines, at which point you can have a repulsor soak the overwatch, then charge the captain in and knock one over.

Mortal wounds reach peak efficiency against knights as they are pretty much the most expensive points/wound army in the game, so adding a heavy bolter/cherub into devastator squads and taking librarians will help out.

Knights will normally be accompanied by cheap allies for CP farming, screening and objective holding - so don't neglect taking some form of mobile anti infantry (anything with a jump pack can hide in reserves for a turn or so until needed).

Now that stratagems and warlord traits are a thing for IK, you can expect 4++ or 3++ saves on whatever knight is the best MEQ killer, null zone on a suicide jump librarian could be a good trade.

Avoid hand to hand unless you are confident you can do any of the following:
1. kill it before it swings back at you
2. surround it and survive the turn with a unit type it cannot fall back from

I disagree about mortal wounds – especially from the psychic phase, if I am honest.

Psychic heavy forces, that can put out the MWs to kill a 28 wound Dominus in 1 turn seem great, but you need to take screens into account. Yes, there will be some lists running Knights solo, or running Armigers as MW screens, but, a lot of lists will also be running 38 wounds of Guardsmen. Sure, you can destroy the screen turn 1, but, you then have to hope that your screen survives the return firepower. You also have to consider the fact that you’ll also prob not get the +1 on the roll to go first, in which case turn 2 will hurt even more.

Of course, the above is in relation to running Thousand Sons.

When you look at other armies, like general Space Marines, you’re looking at probably 3d3 MWs from 3 smites. Unfortunately, that just isn’t going to help you take down 3 Knights and a screen, or 4-5 Knights. (not to mention cost an absolute fortune in points)

Sure, you can then add on the MWs from Hellfire Shells, but, again, it isn’t going to do as much as you want, especially when you consider that it can still miss, and your 3rd smite is on a 7+.

For Marines, I would personally stay clear of MWs in Knight matchups. 3 Preds with Killshot will likely serve you more – even 2 just shooting is going to put just as much damage out. After that it is simply additional lascannons, maybe Hellblasters, then units to deal with obsec infantry and units you can hide out of LoS on objectives for the long game.

Not going to lie. The matchup will swing completely on 4+ invuln saves and D6 damage rolls imo.

Killshot predators are a reasonably good shout, though the knight player will go first most of the time and killing a predator is going to be high up his priority list.

I like hellblasters because you can keep them tucked up safely in a repulsor during deployment. The repulsor also has a helpful four lascannons, and is pretty durable. It takes a lot of battlecannon or Gatling cannon shots to kill one, though you do have to watch out for the thermal cannons. Volcano lances look like rather bad news too!

Anyway the point of the repulsor is to protect your hellblasters and reduce your drop count, not to live forever. I took a 2k army with 7 drops to the LGT and out-deployed everyone I faced. If a knight dies in its deployment zone on turn 1 things will look an awful lot rosier for you than once they start jogging towards you.

Kdash wrote:
I disagree about mortal wounds – especially from the psychic phase, if I am honest.

Psychic heavy forces, that can put out the MWs to kill a 28 wound Dominus in 1 turn seem great, but you need to take screens into account. Yes, there will be some lists running Knights solo, or running Armigers as MW screens, but, a lot of lists will also be running 38 wounds of Guardsmen. Sure, you can destroy the screen turn 1, but, you then have to hope that your screen survives the return firepower. You also have to consider the fact that you’ll also prob not get the +1 on the roll to go first, in which case turn 2 will hurt even more.

Of course, the above is in relation to running Thousand Sons.

When you look at other armies, like general Space Marines, you’re looking at probably 3d3 MWs from 3 smites. Unfortunately, that just isn’t going to help you take down 3 Knights and a screen, or 4-5 Knights. (not to mention cost an absolute fortune in points)

Sure, you can then add on the MWs from Hellfire Shells, but, again, it isn’t going to do as much as you want, especially when you consider that it can still miss, and your 3rd smite is on a 7+.

For Marines, I would personally stay clear of MWs in Knight matchups. 3 Preds with Killshot will likely serve you more – even 2 just shooting is going to put just as much damage out. After that it is simply additional lascannons, maybe Hellblasters, then units to deal with obsec infantry and units you can hide out of LoS on objectives for the long game.

Not going to lie. The matchup will swing completely on 4+ invuln saves and D6 damage rolls imo.

Sorry was in a rush so probably wasn't clear. I'm not advising to take just librarians and smite your way to victory, just that mortal wounds are points efficient as they will be coming from things you already want to take - lascannon platforms are a given so a devastator squad or two with one bolter and cherub isn't a tax and will cause wounds:

lascannon vs t8/5++ (1 shot/3+ hit/3+ wound/5++ save/d6 damage) = average 1.04 wounds
heavy bolter + hellfire shells + signum + cherub vs t8/5++ (2 shots/2+ hit/d3 damage) = average 3.33 wounds

Not going to kill anything on it's own (but nothing in the marine codex will), MW will help you get there a bit faster though. Most of the rest of the suggestions on here are good, but can be countered to a point by IK tactics (in particular, rotate ion shields), the only point I could add would be for killshot predators to be used specifically to try and mess with the opponents priorities - declare your first predator to shoot at target A to bait out rotate ion shields, then all subsequent shots into target B, you may have to settle for killing your second highest priority enemy - but a dead knight is a dead knight.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

If supported by Chalpain and Lieutenant, it still requires 13 men to relatively reliably (~64%) chances to kill an IK. If you lowered the requirement, just to severely cripple the Knight instead of killing it outrught. 10 Space Marine Veteran / Terminators are still required.

Which Is also too expensive when they'll just use their feet and gain back a lot of points you just tried to spend.

You basically need Killshot Predators with a Chapter Master and Lt. along with HK Missiles on those. Also a shame that Tremor Shells don't do a darn thing to Knights.

Otherwise you're stuck with Grav Leviathan Dreads or kinda throwing everyone under Roboute. Again.

There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

Axle_Gear wrote:
There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

A leviathan is also a good option. Ideally, you run it as DW to hide it in deepstrike until it can show up and unload on a knight. If you have a watch captain around and use the +1 to wound strat, you can chip off an average 6-7 wounds with the Melta Lance weapon against a knight with a 3++ (4++ is .10 wounds, 5++ is 13, and if you somehow got a null zone off you would do 20 wounds on average).

That brings me to how good null zone is. Anything you can do to get a librarian with null zone within 6" of a knight, you should do. With the weapons that matter, not having an invul save reduces a knights defensive ability by anywhere from 20-300% depending on the invul save and the AP of the weapon.

2) Ideally, you should paint your marines a non-chapter specific color, make up some cool fluff, and then use whatever rules you want to. This lets you add BA, SW, GK, etc to your army without having 7 whole marine armies. Obviously this doesn't appeal to everyone, so you do you.

3) Units can never move THROUGH terrain unless their is a specific exception. This is clear on page 177 of the rule book under the Moving paragraph "It (a model) cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery." So, they can technically climb OVER terrain, but it counts against their movement. Then, when you start using the rules for ruins (i think most people do) they have a few exceptions on page 248 "Unless they have FLY, VEHICLES, MONSTERS and BIKES can only end their movement on the ground floor of ruins" and then there is a specific rule allowing INFANTRY to move through the walls of ruins, but no one else can. This means that there is no way for a knight to move 4 stories up and then down again most ruins with their movement value. That's my understanding, anyway.

Only infantry can move through the walls of ruins. Vehicles have to go around them unless they have fly (not knights). Hills, woods, and most other terrain don't have these restrictions, but no, a knight can't walk through a 4 story building. This is on page 248 of the rule book under "ruins."

4) At 750 points the only legal IK lists are:
3 little knights (and no 3 CP) + other non knight stuff stuff or perhaps 1 more little knight.
1 big knight and 2 little knights (this would be fairly limited as to what could be taken - only the Perceptor, Errant, Gallant, and Warden are cheap enough for 750 with two smaller knights), and he would only have 3CP in his whole list.
1 big knight and 1 little knight in SEPARATE heavy aux detachments (this means they can't have any traits and don't get the 3 CP.)

At this points level it will be very difficult to kill a knight over the course of the game. The game is really designed around 2000 points, so things like this are difficult. Probably the only thing you could hope for is to get a null zone off on the knight and do enough damage for it to start mattering, and/or try to avoid him and play to the mission.

Axle_Gear wrote:
There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

On point 2) there is usually no problem in playing an army with different rules than the paints. Models are there to stick, while rules change. Who knows if in 9th edition everything will change again? Don't mind this aspect that much. In official GW tournaments you'll find that if you paint an Ultramarine army, you'll need to play them as Ultramarines, but in other enviroments, especially between friends it's all cool.

On 3) it's all in the basic ruleset. "When a model moves it cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery." Simple as that. Then in the Batlefield terrain section you'll find special rules for various terrains. Then in the Knight datasheet you have this piece "When this model Falls Back, it can move over enemy INFANTRY and SWARM models, though it must end its move more than 1" from any enemy units". This should cover all movement rules with said model. Usually you can agree beforehand what terrain is considered impassable for both armies.

At 750pt he could deploy a Valiant and an Armiger Warglaive, or any "normal knight" with any type of armiger.

You can Null Zone the inv. save, no?

Yeah, but getting that null zone off...Even with no deny, that's only what, like 50% chance. I feel like knights return the game to what everyone disliked in 5th ed with vehicles, single rolls deciding between unhurt and dead with no in between.

You could always cheese it yourself and go with a marine super heavy tank destroyer
But, seriously, pretty much any sort of several hundred point model is imbalanced at low point counts, there's almost no ways to deal with them except by bringing your own.

Only other marine idea I've got is go Slamguineous BA, drop in the captains and try to smash it on the charge. Maybe also include a min AM for more CPs and a bunch of bodies to grab objectives in case they fail or die to the armiger after.

I’ve suggested it in other threads, but my current bright idea is to try Inquisition allies for the Dominate psychic power, either a supreme command or vanguard. You get one of those inquisitors within 18” of a knight with a volcano lance...

As mentioned before playing the mission is the key to beating knights. Even more so at low points like 750 where the game gets really swingy.

That being said it sounds like your opponents are playing loose with the rules. So here's some tricks for your arsenal.

Trick 1 - To see whether a unit has made the charge it has to make it within 1" of an enemy model and you measure base to base even for knights. As knights can't move up floors this means that can't attack models in the 1st , 2nd, 3rd floor of ruins. They do have a stratgem (deveststing reach) that lets them do this but it costs CP and as mentioned they will only have 3CP at that points level. The stratagem also prevents them from using their feet attacks.

Trick 2 - To control and objective a model needs to be within 3" if it, again this is always measured from the base, knights are no exception. Knights can only enter the ground floor of ruins. There is nothing stopping you placing an objective marker in the 2nd floor of a ruin, this way it is impossible for a knight to score that objective (this is why most tournaments Have a hose rule that says objectives must be placed at ground level, but there is no such restriction in the core rules).

Trick 3 - at the end of the day in 40k you have to know your and your opponents rules. People make mistakes, and a lot of people fail at reading comprehension, or read what they want to see.

Hope that helps.

JCD has given some great advice already. I'd definitely stick to yellow, but use them as a successor chapter, which allows you so much freedom as to rulesets. That's exactly what I went for and it's great. My yellow marines ('Oathkeepers') can play as Ravenguard, Salamanders, Bloodangels, you name it. As your army grows you'll find yourself wanting to do different things with them. Maybe you want to try a melee focus? No problem, Blood Angel Successors. Snipers? Raven Guard. Primaris heavy? Maybe Iron Hands, etc.

Phew, that's a challenge! Here's what' I'd consider running if I had 750pts to bring down a knight:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 750pts] ++

2x
Captain [6 PL, 114pts]: Jump Pack, Thunder hammer

3x
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 92pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

2x
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 123pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

If you go heavy on vehicles, the knight is going to have a field day. Embedding your heavy weapons in infantry teams will slow down your death and allow you to keep damaging the big fella well into the game. Here's what the list does:

Two fast Thunderhammer captains, who are sacrificial units really. When they get into range of the knight, they charge and do a chunk of damage. The knight hits back and kills one, and they trigger 'only in death' stratagem for 2cps, and attack again. These two guys will single-handidly do a lot of damage to that knight, if backed with CP. If you go BA or RG, take the jump-pack relic to shut off overwatch.

The Dev squads both have heavybolters for the hellfire stratagem. Use the cherub to fire twice, and the sarg to give +1 to hit; now you're hitting on 2+ and doing flat 2d3 mortal wounds. Very nasty. You can use this trick once on both squads.

The tacs are there to camp objectives and lay down lascannon fire. You'll have 8 CPs; 2 will be needed for hellfire strats, 4 for 'Only in death' strats, leaving you only 2 to spend elsewhere.

As for which chapter you go for, I'd say Ravenguard for the -1 to hit, or Bloodangels to pump up your Captains' attacks.

MAKE SURE that your game has objectives. The game is hollow and boring if it's just played for killpoints, and board control is a huge part of the game, and a natural counter for skew lists (such as all knights!). Your marines will hold objectives all day long. Once again: board control is the big weakness of a knight list, perhaps the biggest weakness. If your friend is insisting on playing with no objectives then he is unfairly stacking the game in his favour.

Good luck and let us know how it goes, whatever you choose to take.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my NOT Imperial Fists by the way!

https://i.imgur.com/cX5GWcE.jpg
https://imgur.com/wvZPR8F
https://imgur.com/kK1aU4m
https://imgur.com/lqs6tiP

I wasn't planning on buying Aggressors, but seeing that can be built without that silly chain thing near the crotch and that they look easy to cut the Aquila off I definitely need buy some instead of proxying them.

Aggressors are the best vanilla Primaris unit imo. 111pts is very reasonable for the threat they bring. They are easy to kill, however... And yeah, I disliked the crotch-display relics too

@grouchoben - I just know someone’s going to wag their finger at me with the whole ‘beggars can’t be choosers’ schtick, but that list is almost precisely all the models I don’t plan on incorporating into my army. I wanted to avoid single-wound marines, and while I’m willing to make exceptions for non-primaris options for most HQs (transports and support accompanying units), the captain wasn’t one of them.

How viable is a dreadnought heavy list these days? I imagine they go over better than they used to, what with there no longer being a random chance of immobilization on taking a hit.

Also, if dread-heavy is viable, anyone have good suggestions for a kitbash to make a Leviathan? I don’t trust Forgeworld after consistently getting bad molds from them.

Ha! Totally understand Axle - I tend to stay away from single wound marines - or at least I did until I went DW and discovered Vets. The list was an attempt to deal with the prospect of a 750pt Knight list - you're going to have to spread your threat well to win that one I think.

Dreads can be very good at filling a niche in your lists, but I think they shouldn't be spammed.

IMO they work best in RG because they love that -1 to hit. I often run two in my lists - I tend to run Contemptor Mortis with quadlas, a Leviathan, a Chaplain Dread, Ven Dreads (and a Redemptor if i'm feeling in the mood). Leviathan is streets ahead, but two ven dreads with doublelas and ML come in at only 20pts more than 1 SCA Leviathan. Speaking of the SCA Leviathan, I think it's the single best unit in the SM roster. Nothing else gives use that much bang for 309pts. I don't have a Deredeo, but I wish I did. Very interesting abilities on that fellow.

I also think a good old Kheres Assault Cannon Contemptor is worth a look. Knights are lethal in CC, but it's also where they're most vulnerable, which means that melee dreadnoughts can do work if you manage the distances right. A tough call, though, seeing how buffed knight movement is in their codex.

As for kitbashing, you could just buy the SCA arms and try them on a Redemptor. That guy's the right amount of beefcake, and the model deserves a better statline, imo.